[BTS] A Noble Diplomatic Endeavor

[MrKlew]

I'm a noble player and I've gotten to where I can win on a fairly regular basis. My last 4 games have been mid1900s victories (2 culture, 1 space, 1 diplomatic that was really a domination). But I know from reading this forum, that much earlier wins are possible not to mention higher difficulty levels.

I think my weaknesses are inefficient whip use, building too much, poor diplomacy, and getting distracted from my goal. But I figured I'd post a game and let you all tell me what my real problems are. I'll try and be disciplined and play in small chunks and post lots of saves and screen shots so you can give the best input possible. Maybe I'll even some add narrative to keep it less boring for all of us.

The map is a huge Earth2 map with 18 AIs. All other settings are default. I chose the huge map with 18 AIs so I'll be forced into some good diplomacy or risk being ganged up on. Earth2 is a map I haven't played before and will give a good mix of close early AIs along with learning how to deal with those civs you meet after astronomy.

Our leader is Joao II. I chose him because I like the expansive trait,it seems like health is always harder to come by than happiness, at least mid to late game. Imperialistic should help with the REX and comes in handy if I go on the warpath as well.

So onto the game....

[MrKlew]

Joao looked at his tent as it flapped in the strong sea breeze. He was tired of all this moving around, he longed for a permanent home, one that did not shake in the breeze. Yes, his people would settle down and build permanent dwellings where they could live in comfort and grow prosperous. But where? Joao looked out from his tent situated on a hill between two lakes and the sea. His warriors reported a vast forest of sweet smelling plants to the northwest. Eventually his people might find a good use for those plants, but that was in the future, what would benefit his people now? His warriors also reported cows, those could be more useful but they were many days hike away and there was little else near them to make them attractive, perhaps in the future his people could establish an outpost there.

He turned to the south. Immediately to the south was a forest and to the west of that some rice. Now the rice would be useful, it he could figure out to harvest it he could feed enough people to work those hills to the east. Now his people knew the secrets of extracting useful items from the rocks of the hills. To the south of the forest was the sea. Now Joao loved the sea. He was dissappointed he could see no fish or clams nearby. But those trees to the south blocked his view, perhaps they hid some clams.

He returned to his tent, the question still plaguing him. His current spot had some benefits, plenty of fresh water, a good defensive position, good production from the hill, and if he were really lucky maybe some seafood to the south. Moving into the forest to the south also interested him. He would know for sure if there were any seafood present. While he would lose the defense and production from settling on the hill, but he would gain two more hills to work. The only question was, how to feed all those miners, the rice could feed enough for one hill, perhaps he could plant some vegetables in that forest to the east, but that would only feed maybe half the workers it would take to mine a hill. He thought, perhaps there is more seafood off to the west, that hill west of the rice might also make a nice home, and I can leave these smelly trees for some later settlers. Joao paced back and forward torn. Finally he leaned out his tent once again and yelled. SEND MY ADVISORS IN IMMEDIATELY....

[The Oz-Man]

The Portuguese advisers scratched their heads. They knew Joao was a wise man, but they could see none of these cows for which he hungered. Though their bellies grumbled for the rice of the fields, they saw neither rice nor field. And though reports of a hill site for Lisbon seemed apparent, they could see no hills at all.

In fact, neither could they see Joao.

The advisers crumpled in the corner of their dark room, whimpering, rocking back and forth, sucking their own fists...

(Screenshots? Save? )

[Solyaris]

Rather weird start^^

First: remember what traits does; in this case +50% production speed for settler and +25% for worker meaning working hammer tiles whenever building any of these two.

SIP, if any sea-food resorce go workboat first, else go worker.

Tech: agri then BW

If no sea-food, farm the 2 green spice resorces, else cottage them.

[The Oz-Man]

Okay, there's the files.

...that's a lot of spices.

The rice being wet is nice, but unless there's seafood in the fog, it's sort of food-poor. I'd settle in place simply because nothing looks like it's worth moving for.

[MrKlew]

After listening to his advisors Joao's decision was made. Not that the advisors spoke with any great wisdom, but rather they affirmed what was in his own heart. Dreams of fish and even cows, were just that dreams, and they wouldn't feed his people. This rice was what his people had now, and they would make use of it.

Joao called an assembly and announced they would settle on this hill and call it Lisbon. He began piling stones from the hill to make the walls of his new home, showing the people how to do the same. As he labored he realized that this settling down in one spot would require much labor. He decided that would be his first task, to train some of his people to be laborers who could work the land to make it bear the many things Lisbon would need. Well at least if he could find no fish or clams. They would start with farming that rice, then move on to those hills.

Joao also realized that there was much his people didn't know, such as the best ways to make these plants grow and how to best harvest them. So he called together his wisest elders and set them to studying the problem. Once they had figured that out, he would set them to work on figuring out how to remove that forest that was blocking the view of his precious sea. Perhaps they could use some of these stones in the hills to cut down those trees.

[MrKlew]

Joao looked out from his stone house perched on the highest point of Lisbon. Time had flown, nearly a thousand years and he was old now. Things had gone as planned so far. His sages had indeed discovered the secrets of rice and other plants that could be eaten and the rice to the west helped the city to grow. They had also discovered the secrets of bronze, alas they could find no copper that his sages told him could make great weapons. But they had designed smaller axes that could be used to cut the forests nearby to clear the land for more farms and to build useful things for his city. They also came up with a new labor system called slavery that could be used to build things more quickly.

Joao had personally overseen the training of a squad of workers and two squads of warriors. This gave him 3 squads of warriors, one stayed in Lisbon to guard the city while one explored east and the other west. His warriors had met many other chieftans who had also settled down to found cities. There were many strange people with strange names that inhabited the surrounding plains and forests. Justinian of a people called Byzantine and Hatsheput of the Egyptians were the closest to the northwest and northeast. Sitting Bull was not far to the east. Beyond them Cyrus of the Persians lie further to the northwest and a man named Peter of the Russians lie to the west.

These new leaders posed many problems for Joao. His people were growing and they would need more land, but with so many leaders around there might be scarce little left and he might be hemmed in on his little hill in Lisbon while other leaders built mighty nations. He would send out his bravest men and women to establish a new city like Lisbon. But where would they settle. That hill to the west had fish, an abundant food source that would help them to grow quickly, and it had cows. The city would grow quickly, but would not claim much new land. Further to the west his sages told him of corn that could also feed many people, and much green land for farming. Settling here would claim the entire peninsula for Portugal and could lead to much commerce further down the road. Settling near the cows to the north would prevent the Byzantines and Egyptians from expanding south, but would have little food until he could find a way to harvest those smelly plants. To the east his sages told him of a smooth white rock that could make strong beautiful buildings. There was wheat there as well. Settling just west of the wheat would claim both, but the city would be otherwise unproductive plains. The area further to the east, where his eastern squad of warriors was now was also a nice spot. It would cut off Sitting Bull's expansion to the west and would have wheat and cows for food.

Then there was the problem of what to do with his neighbors. He would need to make friends with some but could not keep them all happy. Seems he had found no copper early war did not seem a wise option, even if it were he would need some allies. Hatsheput had gold that he coveted, but if he let her keep it she could make a good trading partner, and if she found horses to make her feared chariots she could become dangerous. He did not like how the beady-eyed Justian eyed his smelly plants. He seemed he could be a dangerous enemy or perhaps a powerful ally. The feather-hatted Sitting Bull seemed like he could be dangerous, but could be a good ally if war arose. Cyrus with the hat of cigars seemed pleasant enough and far enough away that he could make a good trading partner. Peter seemed pleasant enough on the outside but Joao did not trust him.

Then there was the problem of what to have his sages do. They were currently working on something called the wheel that would help them transport goods faster over the land. That seemed good to him, they also talked of pottery to make use of the clay in the area to make useful things that could be traded. On the other hand, with so many nations arising perhaps some more defensive technologies would be useful. Perhaps they should learn how to tame the beasts of the field.

There were many decisions to be made. But they were too much for him, he would hand them on to his son, Joao II. But he would need some sage advice. Where were those advisors?....





Ken X BC-3040.CivBeyondSwordSave

[Solyaris]

TW and pottery seems fine techwise. Alternativly you could go for sailing + masonry for TGL and let that do for the early commerce (sould easily get foreign trade ruters with that many rivals).

Try to get the spot with the wet corn and the 3 grass-hills in the vest, and the wet wheat + rivers in the east. You should prepare for war in the BC's, horse-archers or catapuls.

[Gumbolt]

The land around you is horrible. You really could use AH as the cows will need this. On plus side you have a huge inland lake!! With a light house thois will provide 3f2c tiles. Not terrible for a map like this. So you want 2-3 cities around the inland lake. This may mean beelining sailing at some point for light houses.

If you find horse consider a chariot rush to grab a good capital city spot. You have forest to whip a chariot army. Otherwise try to put chops into the settler as they gain +50% hammers due to imperialist trait.

Ideally you should normally grow your capital to size 3-5 and use mines to get a decent settler pump.

Settling on the spice? might be nice with a border pop. If you want to use the inland lake maybe 2N of the coes using the capitals 3rd border pop. Prolly grab the corn first if possible.

Overall depends if you find horse what you do.

[MrKlew]

Joao II was proud of himself. Under his direction the country founded by his father had founded a second city. Oporto was on the west end of the large lake that Lisbon was on and had access to corn and some strange plant with worms that weaved the most interesting threads. But mostly he chose the spot because of the lush green lands that were much more attractive than the brown plains and hills near Lisbon. Chopping of the forests there had helped outfit the settler and another worker. He had begun to have the sages research how to tame animals in hopes that they could be used for work and perhaps battle if the parade of leaders kept pressing in on him. During his reign Joao II had met many more including Churchill, Mao Ze Dong, Montezuma, Roosevelt, and Tokugama. Dealing with them all could be a challenge.

[MrKlew]

Joao III was torn as he looked out from the throne room of Lisbon. He had surpassed both his fathers in building the Portugese empire. Using the forests and the whips he had expanded the empire so it would soon have 5 cities. The latest city would soon be settled between the cows and spices on the peninsula of Lisbon. One city had claimed marble and wheat to the east. Another would claim the remaining spices to the north along with the cows. Perhaps he could even steal some grapes from Justinian. But now there was no land to expand, unless he set sail across the sea to the south.

His warriors had met many more leaders. A formidable man named Shaka lay to the East, along with someone named Julius to the Southeast, and another named Frederick. And then there was also a man named Mansa. With so much land claimed conflicts would be bound to arise soon. He had already heard from rumors at the court that Mansa and Montezuma did not like each other. Something about different gods whatever those were. From what his warriors had found it appeared Peter, Cyrus, and Justinian were already hemmed in at one or two cities. Surely they would not be content with that. To the east Shaka and Julius appeared to be expanding rapidly as well. Frederick appeared to have very rich lands to the southeast with much gold and incense. So who would be friends and who would be enemies. Mao had come asking for open borders, he allowed it since he did not seem to be a significant threat. The man Frederick could be a powerful ally since he seemed to be rich and far away, perhaps he would trade valuable technologies. Julius and Shaka seemed to be shaping up as major power players, he could probably not keep them both happy, but he would need to keep one as a friend, at least for now. But one thing seemed to be clear with no horses or copper he could afford no wars soon. His warriors had found horses and copper but they were far off and near the borders of other countries.

Technology-wise he had mastered the wheel, followed by animal husbandry to learn to master cows, and hopefully horses, but alas there were none. Then he learned pottery to build granaries and cottages which would help with growth and commerce. He followed that with sailing as he heard of the wonder of lighthouses and the additional bounty he could reap from the sea around him. Then, being worried about some of his aggressive neighbors he studied hunting and archery. Now he had heard of writing from his new friend Mao and had started studying that perhaps he could build some libraries. After that perhaps he would study iron working to finally get some good weapons. On the other hand calendar could bring additional riches or alphabet would allow them to learn many new technologies by trading with those advanced countries.

Joao once again turned to his advisors....
(OK I could use some help here, I'm sure I've made some mistakes, what were they? How do I handle the diplomacy? What's a good tech path? Does Great Lighthouse make sense? It looks like cats are my only offensive hope, do I beeline them?)

[MrKlew]

So here are my cities. What do I build in each?

[Smilingrogue]

I would change the lighthouse build in Lisbon to a galley for ferrying a settler across to the small island due south. Since you don't have many grassland riverside tiles for cottaging, you will have to get creative with traderoutes to push the economy, at least until you can take some one's well cottaged city.

I would whip Oporto's worker and spam farms there instead of cottages and turn it into a mini scietist/whip hub. The best spot to build cottages is along the river in Coimbra (cottages will generate more gold in the long haul than developing those spices, so keep a couple for plantation and cottage the rest). Though, that site isn't too hot as it's mostly plains. Looks like you will have to get your hands dirty and take a few people out to get a good Bur cap.

[MrKlew]

I played a few more turns until writing was done. Started a library in Oporto, will whip it and get 2 scientists as quick as possible. I chose Oporto because it's the only city with an enough food to run 2 scientists at the moment. Lisbon probably could but then I would lose my best production city.

When considering my next tech, I realized I could use a lot. Archery for defense, meditation for monuments and border pops, math for chopping, masonry for a run at the great lighthouse, iron for warmaking. So I decided on alphabet. Hopefully I can be first there and trade it to backfill a whole bunch of those techs. So does this make sense?

If so who should my trading buddies be? I'm thinking Frederick and Hatsheput could be good. They both have one or more gold so should be teching decently and aren't known for backstabbing or being zealots. Mansa is usually a great tech partner but befriending him means sooner or later going to war with Monty. Shaka and Julius are looking to be the early REX leaders, I'm guessing one or both will be looking to expand militarily soon, hopefully against the other one. I'm thinking I should make one my friend and figure the other for my enemy.

[Solyaris]

If you post a save of your last date, Ill give my opinion =)

[MrKlew]

Originally Posted by Solyaris

If you post a save of your last date, Ill give my opinion =)

I don't have anything closer than the 1600BC save currently posted (in post 11) accessible at the moment. But the more recent save is only 5 turns later so not much has changed.

[Solyaris]

Two options IMO:
1. Go straight for alphabeth and currency, then try to get either knights or mace-men before AI get longbows
2. Go straight for math and construction, build catapults while research/trade IW and go with swordsmen or archers (depending on if you have iron or not)

Either way you're boxed in and have poor land so you need to go to war soon.

[MrKlew]

Joao IV paced up and down the royal hall of Lisbon. His forefathers had expanded Portugal to a good sized nation of 5 cities, but now Joao had to deal with all the headaches caused by that. He was now hemmed in on 3 sides by strange and menacing leaders. The only escape would be the sea to the south, but the gold gifted to his father by the natives was now gone and he was not sure he could afford expeditions to the south. At any rate he still had to deal with the many other leaders who were arriving at his palace with requests. He hoped they would not one day arrive with arms. He had seen other armies outfitted with things called bows, he knew his army's clubs would be no match. Several leaders had arrived asking for open borders, so far he had granted all requests. Most were far enough away and did not seem to big a threat. Frederick actually seemed he might make a good ally, his country had many technologies that could be useful to him, including archery. Hopefully his scholars would perfect the alphabet they were working on soon so they could learn those secrets. He had more doubts about opening borders to the man named Julius, he did not trust him.

The other problem was that with many of his cities now growing, the citizens were beginning to become unhappy. This was especially true in Oporto where the whip had been employed much to build the granary, to outfit the settlers to Evarao, and to speed the production of the library (via whip overflow). One possible answer came from the Egyptians who came telling about worship of the one true God. Adapting this religion would make his citizens happier and would gain a friend in the lady with the blue mud on her eyes, but it would also gain him enemies in Montezuma and Mansa Musa. The other possibilities were to unlock the secrets of the calendar and growing seasons so they could harvest some of the strange plants in the kingdom. This could also allow trade with his neighbors for some of the goods his people coveted.

[MrKlew]

Played a bit more, things are getting complicated so I could definitely use some advice here. My biggest problem is the happy cap at the moment. It's at 4 in most of my cities. The quickest solution would be to adopt Judaism as its spread to 2 of my cities. Of course that would likely get me involved in some religous wars. The religous blocs are starting to shape up. Right now Hatsheput and Shaka are Jewish; Monty, Alexander, and Tokugawa are Buddhist; and Mansa and Frederick are Hindu. You know the Buddhists will be starting some religous wars sooner rather than later and those 3 together could be scary. If I go Jewish, Shaka could make a good meat shield as he's closer to everone except Tokugawa. I'm leaning toward this since it is the fastest way to boost the happy cap and I think I'm in good enough position to at least hold my own.

Diplomatically I have been opening borders with everyone that asks, don't know if that's a good idea or not, but it doesn't seem like there is much harm in it. I did turn down Peter when he begged for mysticism. I'm figuring once the warring starts he is an early target anyway. His cultural pressure on my borders is annoying and he lacks metal and horses, no archers yet either. Most everyone is at +1 with everyone else except the religous blocs are starting to not like each other, I'm attaching the diplo table.

Tech-wise I got alphabet and started on math with an eye toward calendar (happy boost) and currency and eventually construction. I was hoping to backfill using alphabet but haven't gotten much. I managed to pick up archery and mysticism, but nothing else. Noone will trade masonry or iron working. I'm guessing masonry won't become available until the mids and great lighthouse have been built. I was really hoping to not have to research iron working myself, but it may be necessary if I'm going to have a decent army. Another possibility is to send a settler to North Africa to claim the horses and clam down there. It would probably tank my research until currency, but horse archers could give me a nice advantage.

[pigswill]

IW will likely become available once another AI or two have researched it. If you've got iron then sword rush will probably nab you some land. Maybe go for construction to have yourself a proper army.

I have to admit that I had a go at this; I warrior rushed Just and Hats early on and after that it became too easy.