Wonder Ideas for C2C

[T C]

Great!

[Vokarya]

Here is a Wonder that I have not yet put on SVN, but I finally got around to creating it because the tech is available. This is Woodstock, and it is available at Counterculture. It will be one of two Counterculture Wonders - the other is Burning Man, which will also require Tourism. I want Burning Man to give +1 happy from all Culture buildings, but we need a mechanic to do that without having to write out every single one of them in the code.

Unfortunately, the building model for Woodstock that I found does not work with the Sevopedia, so this is currently model-free. Maybe somewhere down the line we can solve the problem, but that is way far down the priority list.

By itself, Woodstock doesn't do much: +1 happy all cities, +1 happy from Hit Singles, +2 happy with Liberal, +15 culture, +2 GPP (Artist), +10 instability all cities. These are fairly generic effects.

Attachment 328533Attachment 328534

The important thing you get out of Woodstock is the Summer of Love event. It provides a fairly large one-shot culture bonus in exchange for a temporary unhappiness penalty in all cities.

Attachment 328535

What do you think of this one?

[Vokarya]

Here is another Wonder that I have built and is working, but I feel is incomplete.

The Alamo has a single major effect: when a unit you control is killed, it gives the unit's base strength as a one-time culture bonus to all cities. For example, if you lose a Rifleman unit, you get +26 culture (the Rifleman's Strength).

Attachment 328536Attachment 328537

What I am not sure of is if this is enough for the Wonder.

Should the culture from the Alamo scale in any way? Should it have a base line (+10 culture regardless of unit), a multiplier (base Strength x2, for example), or a scale factor (multiply by the percentage of turns over Normal speed)?

Should the Alamo have another ability? Some things I considered are:

• Additional Great General points (either a +X% General emergence or on the death of a unit)
• Extra military unit XP
• Some kind of bonus promotion for units produced in this city

Let me know what you think would work best.

[MoogleEmpMog]

I would suggest making "Route 66" into "The Autobahn." Route 66, and the US highway system in general, is a greater engineering feat, but it has nowhere near the international fame. If anything, it's mostly associated with kitschy Americana. There's something of an excess of US-based wonders in the Modern Age as it stands.

... which makes it somewhat ironic that two I think are badly needed are the Hubble Space Telescope and the Panama Canal, both primarily American wonders.

The Panama Canal is arguably the greatest engineering feat in history. It also has the potential to be a great gameplay wonder. If it's possible to create spaces passable for both ships and land units, and it seems to be, it would be a great way to link two oceans, just as it did IRL. If this IS possible, it might be nice to make the Suez Canal available as well, so this could be done in two different places.

The Hubble Space Telescope has been an immense boon to science and is an iconic "object" for the space age. Seems like it would have obvious gameplay function as a major science booster. (The Mir space station is another possibility, but it's not as clear what its benefits should be and its fame has faded more with time.)

Another great choice would be CERN's Large Hadron Collider. At least one of the great particle accelerators should get a named wonder, and this is the most famous of them.

Moving away from modern wonders, I'd love to see the Walls of Jericho available as a late prehistoric wonder. They wouldn't be any better than the Walls you get with Masonry (aside from providing more culture), but would be available considerably earlier reflecting their status as the oldest city wall in the world.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by Vokarya

Here is another Wonder that I have built and is working, but I feel is incomplete.

The Alamo has a single major effect: when a unit you control is killed, it gives the unit's base strength as a one-time culture bonus to all cities. For example, if you lose a Rifleman unit, you get +26 culture (the Rifleman's Strength).

Attachment 328536Attachment 328537

What I am not sure of is if this is enough for the Wonder.

Should the culture from the Alamo scale in any way? Should it have a base line (+10 culture regardless of unit), a multiplier (base Strength x2, for example), or a scale factor (multiply by the percentage of turns over Normal speed)?

Should the Alamo have another ability? Some things I considered are:

• Additional Great General points (either a +X% General emergence or on the death of a unit)
• Extra military unit XP
• Some kind of bonus promotion for units produced in this city

Let me know what you think would work best.

Is this a wonder for the looser (USA) or the winner (Mexico)?

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

... which makes it somewhat ironic that two I think are badly needed are the Hubble Space Telescope and the Panama Canal, both primarily American wonders.

Isn't the Hubble Telescope already in C2C iirc there is a movie defined for it.

[MoogleEmpMog]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

Is this a wonder for the looser (USA) or the winner (Mexico)?

Clearly, it's a wonder for the Republic of Texas.

In all seriousness, Mexico won the battle, but it's one of history's most obvious Pyrrhic victories and became a rallying cry that went a long way toward losing them the war. While it's yet another American wonder, it's not clustered in the same era as most of them and "Remember the Alamo" is one of the most famous historical rallying cries that's tied to a building. The effects listed seem pretty cool. (I'm not sure if they would involve an appreciable amount of slowdown, though, triggering whenever a player's unit is killed.)

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

Isn't the Hubble Telescope already in C2C iirc there is a movie defined for it.

Oh, it's a Project.

-_-

I don't understand the distinction between Wonders and Projects. As a physical object, why isn't the Hubble a Wonder?

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

Clearly, it's a wonder for the Republic of Texas.

In all seriousness, Mexico won the battle, but it's one of history's most obvious Pyrrhic victories and became a rallying cry that went a long way toward losing them the war. While it's yet another American wonder, it's not clustered in the same era as most of them and "Remember the Alamo" is one of the most famous historical rallying cries that's tied to a building. The effects listed seem pretty cool. (I'm not sure if they would involve an appreciable amount of slowdown, though, triggering whenever a player's unit is killed.)

We already have a number of wonders and projects that trigger things at that point so I doubt it will add much over all.

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

Oh, it's a Project.

-_-

I don't understand the distinction between Wonders and Projects. As a physical object, why isn't the Hubble a Wonder?

I have never been sure. You can't speed up projects with Great Engineers, but everyone in the team get the benefit. On the other hand the types of benefits from a project are much smaller than for a wonder.

[AIAndy]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

I have never been sure. You can't speed up projects with Great Engineers, but everyone in the team get the benefit. On the other hand the types of benefits from a project are much smaller than for a wonder.

Many wonder effects also benefit the entire team.

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I think your woodstock wonder is groovy but I think it should cause some air and/or water pollution. Possibly even disease. It was very messy and tons of trash was created. So ironic since many Hippies were pro-environment.

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

I would suggest making "Route 66" into "The Autobahn." Route 66, and the US highway system in general, is a greater engineering feat, but it has nowhere near the international fame. If anything, it's mostly associated with kitschy Americana. There's something of an excess of US-based wonders in the Modern Age as it stands.

Why not make a new wonder for the Autobahn too? I don't see why we can;t have both (with different stats though).

[MoogleEmpMog]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

Why not make a new wonder for the Autobahn too? I don't see why we can;t have both (with different stats though).

I was just looking at it as a way to make the Modern Wonders seem less US-centric without generating any extra work, but that would certainly be cool, too! Interestingly, very much UNlike vanilla and the vast majority of mods, I don't think C2C is short on modern Wonders in general - if anything, the Industrial era feels a little light by comparison.

If you do decide to make a separate Autobahn wonder at some point. Perhaps it could be a unique class of road with higher speed than the other modern roads (but still slower than the high-tech ones), since it's most famous for its lack of a speed limit. Of course, I've seen plenty of arguments it ends up stop-and-go anyway.

One thing I've wondered, considering that most of the pre-Future wonders are unique events/buildings - why is the "International Dog Show" called that, rather than named for one of the specific great dog shows? Crufts (UK) is the largest and most famous.

[Hydromancerx]

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

One thing I've wondered, considering that most of the pre-Future wonders are unique events/buildings - why is the "International Dog Show" called that, rather than named for one of the specific great dog shows? Crufts (UK) is the largest and most famous.

Mainly because I did not want to link it to a specific Dog show. "Dog Fancy" has been around for a long time before the more corporate sponsored dog shows such as Eukanuba.

On a side note, did you really write "The Fox Who Stole Hong Kong"?

[draz]

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

The Panama Canal is arguably the greatest engineering feat in history. It also has the potential to be a great gameplay wonder. If it's possible to create spaces passable for both ships and land units, and it seems to be, it would be a great way to link two oceans, just as it did IRL. If this IS possible, it might be nice to make the Suez Canal available as well, so this could be done in two different places.

Look no further than the forts, which is available as a map improvement pretty early on (was it in ancient era already?). It acts as a city so you can swim naval units through them as long as they're connected to a coast on at least one side.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by draz

Look no further than the forts, which is available as a map improvement pretty early on (was it in ancient era already?). It acts as a city so you can swim naval units through them as long as they're connected to a coast on at least one side.

Yes, but forts have unintended (and MASSIVE gameplay wise) side effects if we were to artificially plant a line of them from a wonder (defense bonus + ZoC).

Magino Line would be a good use for wonder-generated forts though (not a solid line, but every other tile), though it would probably be OP due to the huge, huge benefit from the ZoCs

In regard to mega-canals we could have a new improvement that acts like a fort but without the defense or ZoC elements, which then COULD be planted coast-to-coast by wonder code. We don;t have any way to genetrate a good graphic however - sopmeone would just have to come up with something that could be plonked down as an improvement graphic that served the purpose, but because such graphics are indpeendent of the surrounding tiles it couldn't link uuop and actually draw something canal-like (a la great wall) unfortunately.

[AIAndy]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Yes, but forts have unintended (and MASSIVE gameplay wise) side effects if we were to artificially plant a line of them from a wonder (defense bonus + ZoC).

Magino Line would be a good use for wonder-generated forts though (not a solid line, but every other tile), though it would probably be OP due to the huge, huge benefit from the ZoCs

In regard to mega-canals we could have a new improvement that acts like a fort but without the defense or ZoC elements, which then COULD be planted coast-to-coast by wonder code. We don;t have any way to genetrate a good graphic however - sopmeone would just have to come up with something that could be plonked down as an improvement graphic that served the purpose, but because such graphics are indpeendent of the surrounding tiles it couldn't link uuop and actually draw something canal-like (a la great wall) unfortunately.

It could be a road which has graphics that do depend on adjacent tiles.

[draz]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Yes, but forts have unintended (and MASSIVE gameplay wise) side effects if we were to artificially plant a line of them from a wonder (defense bonus + ZoC).

Yeah I was just referring to them as an example of moving naval units through land being possible. It's a bit cheesy to use them that way too and I usually try and avoid them, but in my current game I just couldn't resist when building just 2 forts made a 40+ turn route (around most of the continent) doable in 2 turns.

[Vokarya]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

Is this a wonder for the looser (USA) or the winner (Mexico)?

It's the symbolic value that the Wonder is trying to represent. The original idea that I had for the Alamo was to give a unit defending alone +50% strength, but I couldn't seem to find a Python function that would work, so I settled for the Culture bonus and the "Remember the Alamo!" cry.

[Vokarya]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

I have never been sure. You can't speed up projects with Great Engineers, but everyone in the team get the benefit. On the other hand the types of benefits from a project are much smaller than for a wonder.

I always thought that projects are for single great inventions that aren't tied to a particular building. Hubble is an example because it's in orbit, not the city that it is built in. (I think Penicillin should probably be a Project as well, not a building.)

[Vokarya]

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

I would suggest making "Route 66" into "The Autobahn." Route 66, and the US highway system in general, is a greater engineering feat, but it has nowhere near the international fame. If anything, it's mostly associated with kitschy Americana. There's something of an excess of US-based wonders in the Modern Age as it stands.

... which makes it somewhat ironic that two I think are badly needed are the Hubble Space Telescope and the Panama Canal, both primarily American wonders.

I think the kitsch is part of the point of Route 66 -- the road benefit would be actually more of a visual effect than anything else, since I think railroads are much better than highways. I think the big bonus of the Autobahn would be to speed up your road movement. I would probably need either a new XML tag (linking a speed bonus to the Autobahn itself) or a new road type. This was the original idea that I had for Via Appia and the Golden Spike; they would grant a movement bonus on the appropriate route type. I couldn't find a way to do that, and then I thought of the idea of having them actually build the roads in question.

Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog

The Panama Canal is arguably the greatest engineering feat in history. It also has the potential to be a great gameplay wonder. If it's possible to create spaces passable for both ships and land units, and it seems to be, it would be a great way to link two oceans, just as it did IRL. If this IS possible, it might be nice to make the Suez Canal available as well, so this could be done in two different places.

I would do the great canals if I had a good mechanic. Without that, the canals don't have the ability to model their major real-world effect, and thus kind of pointless. I may just do the graphics for them and let them sit for now.

[Vokarya]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Magino Line would be a good use for wonder-generated forts though (not a solid line, but every other tile), though it would probably be OP due to the huge, huge benefit from the ZoCs

I already did the Maginot Line way back - it provides a free Barricades in every city. I suppose it would be possible to have it add free Forts on the map, but I'd have issues with it putting Forts over improvements.

[MoogleEmpMog]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

Mainly because I did not want to link it to a specific Dog show. "Dog Fancy" has been around for a long time before the more corporate sponsored dog shows such as Eukanuba.

Fair enough. Since it's non-named, perhaps it should be a National Dog Show and a National Wonder?

Originally Posted by draz

Look no further than the forts, which is available as a map improvement pretty early on (was it in ancient era already?). It acts as a city so you can swim naval units through them as long as they're connected to a coast on at least one side.

I'm aware of fort-based canals and use them quite often. However, at least in the base game they can only bridge a 1 square gap on their own, or a 2-3 square gap combined with a city - a naval unit cannot travel between two forts, only between a fort and a coast or a fort and a city. I pictured the Panama and Suez Canal wonders creating (potentially) larger canals that that, although still limited somehow. Plus, they wouldn't have the same graphical and gameplay artifacts that the fort chain does - you wouldn't have to sacrifice plot improvements to get the forts.

Originally Posted by Vokarya

I think the kitsch is part of the point of Route 66 -- the road benefit would be actually more of a visual effect than anything else, since I think railroads are much better than highways. I think the big bonus of the Autobahn would be to speed up your road movement. I would probably need either a new XML tag (linking a speed bonus to the Autobahn itself) or a new road type. This was the original idea that I had for Via Appia and the Golden Spike; they would grant a movement bonus on the appropriate route type. I couldn't find a way to do that, and then I thought of the idea of having them actually build the roads in question.

I know railroads are better when they first become available, but are they still once mechanized infantry replace regular infantry? At that point all relevant units are Movement 3 or better unless you neglect to build the National Weather Service for some reason, so I would think the multiplicative highway would gradually become more useful than the high flat speed of the railroad.

I'm thinking back to AND there, though - I haven't actually reached the modern era in a C2C game yet.

Does Route 66 overwrite railroads with highways? If the former are better, this could end up being one of those wonders that actually hurts the player (or, more likely, the AI) to build.

Originally Posted by Vokarya

I would do the great canals if I had a good mechanic. Without that, the canals don't have the ability to model their major real-world effect, and thus kind of pointless. I may just do the graphics for them and let them sit for now.

Ah, okay.

I recall modders trying to grapple with the great canals before and not being able to get them to work. Hopefully someday.

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

On a side note, did you really write "The Fox Who Stole Hong Kong"?

I did!

I'm a writer and game designer by trade. Tabletop game design, though, so when I see any code more complicated than HTML or basic JAVA my eyes tend to glaze over. In addition to The Fox Who Stole Hong Kong, you can see some of the roleplaying game books I wrote for Green Ronin Publishing and Mongoose Publishing on my Amazon author page. I also have a free online serial.