Favorite World Wonder ideas

Pick your favorite ideas!

  • Burj Khalifa

    Votes: 24 32.4%
  • Large Hadron Collider

    Votes: 42 56.8%
  • Itaipu Dam

    Votes: 19 25.7%
  • Maracanã Stadium

    Votes: 12 16.2%
  • Bell Labs

    Votes: 21 28.4%
  • ARPANET

    Votes: 23 31.1%
  • Akashi Kaikyo Bridge

    Votes: 9 12.2%
  • Channel Tunnel

    Votes: 18 24.3%
  • Panama Canal

    Votes: 40 54.1%
  • Trans-Siberian Railway

    Votes: 23 31.1%
  • Hollywood

    Votes: 30 40.5%
  • Wat Phra Kaew

    Votes: 20 27.0%
  • Crystal Palace

    Votes: 16 21.6%
  • Gotthard Rail Tunnel

    Votes: 16 21.6%
  • Churches of Lalibela

    Votes: 16 21.6%
  • Potala Palace

    Votes: 17 23.0%
  • Nazca Lines

    Votes: 26 35.1%
  • Puma Punku

    Votes: 14 18.9%
  • Cairo Citadel

    Votes: 9 12.2%
  • Ely Cathedral

    Votes: 5 6.8%
  • Banaue Rice Terraces

    Votes: 18 24.3%
  • Catacombs of Kom el Shoqafa

    Votes: 10 13.5%
  • Pergamon Altar

    Votes: 9 12.2%
  • Parthenon

    Votes: 28 37.8%
  • Flavian Amphitheatre

    Votes: 27 36.5%

  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .
Hollywood is cooler than the Louvre, but it's also much less.... welll. . cultural
That's a pretty elitest view of what culture is. Hollywood has far more impact on far more people than all the paintings hanging in the Louvre.

Itaipu Dam: free Hydro Plant in every city
I don't really like this effect. I would prefer it to give a production bonus in every city, or every city on that continent, and a free hydro plant in the city itself. If you build one really big dam on a really big river, it should benefit even cities that don't have rivers. Power can be transmitted. Its one thing to have a wonder that can only be built on a riverside city, its another to have a wonder that only benefits a river-oriented civilization. Plus, again, I think it is more interesting if you can have hydro plants in your various cities *and* an extra benefit from the superdam.

Duomo di Firenze (replaces Leaning Tower): happiness and faith
Hagia Sophia: great person bonus
These are logically backwards IMO. Renaissance Florence is a great example of great person production. Constantinople is a great example of Faith and happiness.

This is why I never liked the base game Stonehenge. It's always been just a slightly more-powerful temple, which is rather bland. Here's a thought... it used to basically give instant culture + culture per turn. What if the new Stonehenge gives instant faith + faith per turn?
A large faith production in the early game *is* different, precisely because of how faith production mechanics work (you really want it early on to found/expand religions, but there are limited ways to get it), because early faith production matters so much. There is nothing broken with +5 faith from stonehenge. Its very useful, its not too strong. I'd leave it alone.

I equally assumed everyone knew we were talking about the Florence Duomo. I thought Duomo meant Dome, not cathedral, AFAIK the Florence cathedral isthe only one casually referred to as The Duomo.

I changed temples to 0.5 per in the upcoming verson of GEM
I really dislike this. It scales *way* too much. This means a size 12 city is now pumping out 6 faith. That will complete mess up all the faith mechanics. It also devalues the Mosque and other religious buildings. Faith is supposed to be hard to get hold of. If you want Faith to scale with pop, move that to one of the Religion follower benefit buildings. Or at least make it something like +2 faith, +1 faith per 4 pop. +0.5 per pop from temple dramatically increases the total amount of faith generation in the game. By a lot.
 
Duomo does mean both dome and catherdral. I studied in Florence. The one in Florence is called the Duomo as sort of like 'THE cathedral' cause it was so impressive, but technically others could be called Duomos as well. Sort of like how Istanbul actually means 'the city'. Which started as a nickname for Constantinople and ended up being changed to the name everyone called it.
 
.5 faith/pop from Temples:
I really dislike this. It scales *way* too much.

I like the idea of a per/pop Faith building. Doesn't favor Wide empires so much. But .5/pop does strike me as too high for the Temple. (I dunno about "way" too much... but it seems like a very big change.)

I think the suggestion about moving it to a Follower building a good one. Or keep per/pop in the Temple and add that mechanic to a Belief-pick building. Those buildings have "significant" differences... but just. I don't really care which one I get.
 
I should clarify; I don't object to Faith per pop per se, but I think it comes far too early at the Temple and that it boosts aggregate faith production too much (most cities are larger than size 4 for most of the game, the current breakeven point), and I would prefer that it were a specific Follower building so that way there is a religious founding choice that customizes for Tall empires, and so that the general level of faith income is not dramatically boosted. Currently religion is too focused on Wide.

I suggest just increasing the Temple from 2 faith to 3, then have the Mosque or Monastery as +2 culture +0.5 faith per pop (tall empires don't need the happy so much, and can use the extra faith to spread the religion around a lot). So that way a size 16 city will produce 8 faith from the mosque rather than 3.
 
I should clarify; I don't object to Faith per pop per se, but I think it comes far too early at the Temple and that it boosts aggregate faith production too much (most cities are larger than size 4 for most of the game, the current breakeven point), and I would prefer that it were a specific Follower building so that way there is a religious founding choice that customizes for Tall empires, and so that the general level of faith income is not dramatically boosted. Currently religion is too focused on Wide.

I suggest just increasing the Temple from 2 faith to 3, then have the Mosque or Monastery as +2 culture +0.5 faith per pop (tall empires don't need the happy so much, and can use the extra faith to spread the religion around a lot). So that way a size 16 city will produce 8 faith from the mosque rather than 3.

Agreed here. Temples will also have additional faith from wine/incense patches. I think it makes more sense as a religious building than as the common garden variety version.

This of course would make the religious buildings even more powerful as beliefs.... which is another issue. But we could increase their own faith cost to compensate.
 
This of course would make the religious buildings even more powerful as beliefs.... which is another issue.
I'm not sure that it would. With the vanilla values, I find that Pagoda > Cathedral > Mosque > Monastery.

Happiness is really good, culture is better than faith, and devoting a Follower slot to something that costs faith and mostly just provides more Faith can be a bit weak;

I think that +2 culture, no happy, +0.5 faith per pop building would be about as valuable as the current Pagoda, it would let a Tall empire build up a lot of Faith for purchasing great people.
 
Would moving the bonus to belief-specific buildings be enough to shift religion from a wide to tall focus? I placed it on Temples because I figured we should have something at a more fundamental level...

I think we're getting a little off topic, and I'm trying to avoid getting bogged down in balance details right now, so let's try to finish up the tall-faith subject. :)

How should we balance the numbers? This does the basic concept of pop-faith and percent bonuses:
2:c5faith: Shrine
3:c5faith: Temple (was 0.5/pop)
3:c5culture: 2:c5happy: +2:c5faith: Pagoda (was 4c 2h 2f) (wide focus)
3:c5culture: 1:c5happy: +0.5:c5faith:/:c5citizen: Mosque (was 4c 1h 3f) (faith focus)
6:c5culture: 1:c5happy: +0.25:c5faith:/:c5citizen: Cathedral (was 6c 1h 1f) (culture focus)
+25%:c5faith: Monastery (was 2c 2f) (percentage)
 
.5 faith/pop from Temples:


I like the idea of a per/pop Faith building. Doesn't favor Wide empires so much. But .5/pop does strike me as too high for the Temple. (I dunno about "way" too much... but it seems like a very big change.)

I previously suggested 1 per 5 or 1 per 4 as being a fair first shot at faith/pop yields. They seem much more in line with other yields than 1/2.
 
Would placing the bonus on a belief-specific building be enough to shift religion from a wide to tall focus? I placed it on Temples because I figured we should have something at a more fundamental level.

It would not shift *religion* from a wide to tall focus (which I do not think we should try to do), but it would allow a single player to found a religion that worked well with a Tall strategy. It wouldn't spread widely to other civs, but it could be maintained domestically and provide some helpful bonuses.

I do not think we need to fundamentally make religion equally attractive to Wide and Tall. The fact that spread mechanics work on a per-city basis inherently makes them more suited to Wide. And that's ok.

0.5 pop per temple wouldn't really shift religion to a Tall focus either, it would just drastically increase aggregate faith production. This is a problem, because there are only so many things to spend Faith on.
 
Would moving the bonus to belief-specific buildings be enough to shift religion from a wide to tall focus? I placed it on Temples because I figured we should have something at a more fundamental level...

I think we're getting a little off topic, and I'm trying to avoid getting bogged down in balance details right now, so let's try to finish up the tall-faith subject. :)

How should we balance the numbers? This does the basic concept of pop-faith and percent bonuses:
2:c5faith: Shrine
3:c5faith: Temple (was 0.5/pop)
3:c5culture: 2:c5happy: +2:c5faith: Pagoda (was 4c 2h 2f) (wide focus)
3:c5culture: 1:c5happy: +0.5:c5faith:/:c5citizen: Mosque (was 4c 1h 3f) (faith focus)
6:c5culture: 1:c5happy: +0.25:c5faith:/:c5citizen: Cathedral (was 6c 1h 1f) (culture focus)
+10%:c5faith: Monastery (was 2c 2f) (percentage)

If you don't get access to a belief building then it has no effect at all. This would just mean that all tall civs interested in faith would have to hard beeline stonehenge to found an early religion to make sure they get access to the appropriate building. I think something like 1 + 1/5 pop would be better for the temple. With those numbers you only need cities of size 4 for mosques to be better than pagodas even for wide empires. *Everyone* (except unfortunately possibly the AI) would pick mosques first with the bonus that big.
 
How should we balance the numbers? This does the basic concept of pop-faith and percent bonuses:
2 Shrine
3 Temple (was 0.5/pop)
3 2 +2 Pagoda (was 4c 2h 2f) (wide focus)
3 1 +0.5/ Mosque (was 4c 1h 3f) (faith focus)
6 1 +0.25/ Cathedral (was 6c 1h 1f) (culture focus)
+10% Monastery (was 2c 2f) (percentage)
This sounds ok, though now the Mosque might be a bit too strong.

The Monastery still seems weak though. But I think it is boring and could arguably be removed.

If you don't get access to a belief building then it has no effect at all.
Sounds fine to me.

This would just mean that all tall civs interested in faith would have to hard beeline stonehenge to found an early religion to make sure they get access to the appropriate building
Or use Pantheon beliefs, or just concentrate on building their temple and shrines earlier.
I don't think every civ should always be able to found a religion unless they have a civ ability that helps them do that.

I think something like 1 + 1/5 pop would be better for the temple.
This would found a religion *slower* than the model where the temple provides 3 faith; you have to be size 15 to get more than 3 faith.
Tall empires don't get that big until later in the game.

With those numbers you only need cities of size 4 for mosques to be better than pagodas even for wide empires
Pagoda gives 2 happy. Mosque doesn't. +1 happy per city is a big difference for a wide empire.
 
How about a compromise with a little more :c5faith:/:c5citizen: on the Temple, and slightly less on belief structures:

:c5happy:|:c5culture:|:c5faith:|:c5faith:/:c5citizen:|:c5faith:%||
||2|0.2||Temple|was 3:c5faith:
2 |2 |2|||Pagoda|was 2:c5happy: 4:c5culture: 2:c5faith:
1 |2 ||0.4||Mosque|was 1:c5happy: 4:c5culture: 3:c5faith:
1 |6 ||0.2||Cathedral|was 1:c5happy: 6:c5culture: 1:c5faith:
|2|||50%|Monastery|was 4:c5culture: 2:c5faith:

We need to wrap up this topic since we're wandering away from the subject of wonders. :)
 
Pagoda gives 2 happy. Mosque doesn't. +1 happy per city is a big difference for a wide empire.

I totally missed the happiness - you're completely right here of course.

EDIT: That compromise looks *great* to me.
 
Here's my question, why are we changing so much?

Based on the poll, it looks like we have 2 distinct winners. They have more 10% greater votes than anything else in the poll, in other words clear front runners.

So why not just add those 2 and be done with it? Why do we have need to dramatically change so many other wonders?
 
Here's my question, why are we changing so much?

So why not just add those 2 and be done with it? Why do we have need to dramatically change so many other wonders?

Thal wants something fun to do? :)

I'm willing to indulge this wish if it means I still get something fun to play.
 
@Stalker0
Some of the community's suggestions can fill roles no other wonder currently provides. Other ideas are more inspiring, exciting, or influential than existing wonders. We will discuss this for another week before making any decisions, and continue to improve the world wonder choices after adding the first draft to the project. :)

The currently proposed improvements are:

Wonder | Replaces | Role | Reason
:c5science: Large Hadron Collider | -new- | free techs|most votes
:c5production: Itaipu Dam | -new- | late game production bonus|unique bonus
:c5trade: Panama Canal | -new- | trade bonuses|unique bonus
:c5food: Banaue Rice Terraces | -new- | food on hills|unique bonus
:c5faith: Nazca Lines | -new- | empire +% faith|unique bonus
:c5faith: Wat Phra Kaew | -new- | gives religious buildings lategame culture/science/gold value|unique bonus
:c5faith: Churches of Lalibela |Notre Dame| great prophet| Askumites were first major civ to adopt Christianity
:c5greatperson: Duomo di Firenze |Leaning Tower| great person bonus (Hagia Sophia becomes happy/faith)|more inspiring Italian wonder
:c5gold: Flavian Ampitheater |Mausoleum| great merchant & colosseum|commonly cited as a world wonder
:c5war: Parthenon |Statue of Zeus| great general bonus|more influential
:c5happy: Hollywood |Neuschwanstein| tradable movie luxury resource|represents impact of movies on humanity
:c5science: Bell Labs |Hubble Telescope| space race bonuses|more influential and realistic for a space bonus
:c5science: Heidelberg |Oxford| free tech|German philosophers, mathematicians, scientists
 
When you say 'replaces' does that mean you're getting rid of vanilla wonders, or are you talking purely about the wonder's role?
 
Nazca Lines might have been made by extraterrestrials so I would like to recommend to change it to another one. Machu Pichu, Stonehenge and Pyramids are in similar situation, there is controversy in their origin as well but these may stay due to tradition of series.

Have you heard about Chinese Grand Canal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
Possible effect: shares surpluss of food in the city(where it's built) among the other cities in the continent or/and improves trade (somehow) :)
 
Personally, I'd hate for Wonders to be replaced. Especially Neuschwanstein - I love it's ability and it feels way more like a wonder than Hollywood. Not saying that I don't want Hollywood though...
 
Nazca Lines might have been made by extraterrestrials so I would like to recommend to change it to another one.

I'm guessing you're referring to Ancient Astronaut-theory. AAT-believers do not commonly believe that the Lines were crafted by aliens, but that the people who lived in the area did either in worship of the aliens, or to help them. Although I admit, there are some parts of the area that might have been due to extra-terrestrial help, like the shaved-off mountain top, for example. Still, most of the lines were most certainly done by humans ;)
 
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