GEM: Technologies

Goals

I believe the challenge of researching a tech should match the power of its reward. I also think the capability to beeline for specialized techs makes the game fun. I believe the game should display the power of each tech in an easily-understood manner. Finally, I think it's fun when every game of Civ is different.

Gem v1.11 updates the technology tree to accomplish these goals.


1. Tech Groups



I visually grouped similar techs so it's easier to understand the purpose of sections of the tree and plan accordingly. I gave important techs ingame and historically (like Industrialization) strong prerequisite chains, and niche techs (like Architecture) fewer prerequisites.

Grouping the basic paths of peace (top) and war (bottom) makes it easier to see those paths. Earlier eras have more than two groups, but follow the same basic principle. Players can quickly realize the top area's more peaceful than the bottom area with the help of the new AI. Experienced players know the power of various sections of the tree, but the original design did not present this information well for players unfamiliar with the game. It can easily seem like an indecipherable tangle. The new design organizes info more clearly.

I also moved some items to appropriate techs historically and for gameplay. For example, most Roman wonders like the Colosseum and Hagia Sophia now unlock in the Classical era.


2. Tech Power



I created an AI to figure out the power of each technology. This big new feature can help humans with a wide range of tasks, from learning the game to analyzing complex balance issues. The AI discovered many things even I did not know, especially in later eras I'm less familiar with, and I used the AI's guidance to improve the balance of the tree.

Say a player called Bob is new to the mod, and doesn't know much about the tech tree yet. Bob's in the early Industrial era.

He glances over the 4 late-industrial techs available to him, and the AI tells him Biology is powerful for growing population and getting vanguard units. The AI also looks ahead and realizes Biology soon leads to the Apollo Program, so Biology is essential if Bob wants a spaceship victory. Biology also leads to several world wonders, so the AI tells Bob it's decent for wonders, though less so than the rest. It presents this information to Bob with simple color-coded priorities.

Bob no longer needs to look at every number on every object for every tech in the whole era before deciding what to research. All that information easily overwhelms humans because most of us are capable of holding only a few numbers in our head at a time. Unlike humans, AIs are fantastic at analyzing vast amounts of data, so this system augments our human limitations with computer intelligence. We choose goals (a human strength), and the AI helps us reach those goals by looking at lots of numbers (a computer strength).

The AI gives Bob the level of information he wants with a simple glance: what is this tech good for? Bob can simply click Biology if growing population is an important goal for him, and get back to the main game. If Bob wants more detail, he can glance at the Hospital itself, and the AI shows him Hospitals power growth. Bob can get even more detail by looking at specific Hospital stats like cost, food, and maintenance, but he doesn't need to anymore. We can stop at the level of detail we feel comfortable with.

In the past, a human had to tediously analyze everything on every tech to set these power levels by hand. The process was slow and prone to human error. The new AI is faster, and less likely to make mistakes.

Don't worry, I created my AI to like peaceful stuff too, so he will hopefully be a benevolent ruler when he takes over humanity.


3. Tech Themes

I think it's fun when every game of Civ is different. I like variety! Maps are randomly generated, so I believe the best way to get tech diversity are bonuses for specific types of start locations. It encourages a different path each game, particularly in the ancient era.

I look for reasonably realistic themes with synergy. It makes sense for Trade to help expansion and gold, so when we have lots of room to expand, we're more likely to go for trade. Animal Husbandry is the main cause of deforestation of the Amazon, and horses favor open terrain, so pastures, deforestation, and horses make sense together.

The goal is to look at our circumstances to decide a tech path. Are we near Montezuma? Do we have a good coastline nearby? I believe choices like these are more fun than going for the same techs in the same order every game. I want every early situation to clearly favor a tech path, and every tech path should have good circumstances to pursue it.

Cool, I look forward to seeing what changes you've made. There are certainly some weird beelining possibilities particularly in the late game in the current version. Industrialization is one of them - IIRC gatling guns could come out before muskets.

I don't know if this belongs more in the wonders thread, but have you explored the idea of a wonder that makes a small modification to the tech tree?

Something along the lines of building the wonder allows you to select a tech and make its units/buildings/wonders/etc only available to you (maybe for a limited number of turns). Would this fit with an espionage/intelligence type wonder?

Hmm, I'm not convinced. The Tech Tree is the backbone of the civ game. If you change too much there, you raise the bar for every new player that's familiar with the vanilla game. Past changes have been more on the minimal side. I fear that the mod may get too far into a territory of its own (too set in its own ways, f.e. with the vanguards). And maybe it needs the out-of-the-box thinking the bigger community can provide that the base game has.

But then again, the mod is already far along on this path with revamped wonders, the vanguard line and totally new naval combat. So the entry bar is already quite high and to be honest, the tech tree of the base game can really do with some improvements

So, let us see that please I'm especially looking forward to how that "grouping visually together" works.

This sounds so awesome, it's almost unbelievable!
You just programmed an AI that helps you improve the game???

If my lowly self may make a humble suggestion:

Could you use the chance to improve the transition from medieval to gunpowder units? We talked about it before and I understand that knights have to come rather late/after their counter (to help lowtech civs defend themselves). But it might be beneficial for the immersion to have 1-2 additional tech tiers between knights/trebuchets and muskets/cannons.

Naval combat in GEM isn't new as it builds on the bones in GK. It's just actually useful.

I was wondering what you were up to. This sounds interesting. I look forward to seeing how the AI handles the tech tree. And how I will.

Does this also include any variation of costs per tech based on their value?

Since we are talking tech tree, how do people feel about the naval line? I always feel like I can beeline it very quickly.

From the time I get Carracks, I feel like I can move to Galleons and SOTL very soon afterwards if I want to, moreso than I can other areas.

Stalker0 said:

Since we are talking tech tree, how do people feel about the naval line? I always feel like I can beeline it very quickly.

From the time I get Carracks, I feel like I can move to Galleons and SOTL very soon afterwards if I want to, moreso than I can other areas.

Click to expand...

Agreed, there need to be more pre-reqs here. This used to not be a big deal when naval units are weak, but it is a big deal when they are strong.

Compass requires currency now, so we need most of the ancient and classical era techs to get medieval ships.

@mitsho
I consult my brother for this because he's a first person shooter player. His last experience with 4x games was Alpha Centauri ten years ago, and he's only played Civ 5 a few times, so I figure he's the ideal lab rat-- I mean... valued family member to get the new player experience. His feedback was my inspiration for redesigning the tech tree. The new tech layout should be more straightforward to understand than the old design. This is part of the reason I created the tech-analyzing AI, to aid humans new to Civ 5 or GEM.

I'll let him post his thoughts about the new design, since he suggested the concept of visually grouping similar techs. He's helped me get a different perspective on this project several times in the past, so I figure he should finally get some credit.

Thal's brother here.

With the vanilla tech tree, there is usually one line of techs to always go for, reguardless of your civilization, starting location, map type, or even playstyle. So I end up going for randomish techs just because it feels like there is no real reason to push for any particular one (except in the case of a world wonder somewhere down the line) - they all seem okay for whatever playstyle/map/civ you are currently using. Production-centric playstyles/civs might as well go for the same techs as gold-centric, faith-centric, and science-centric playstyles/civs.

From what we've designed for the new tech tree, the techs are organized into clearer and more specialized paths to allow for an easier time of choosing what to really push for.

With the vanilla tech tree, there is usually one line of techs to always go for, reguardless of your civilization, starting location, map type, or even playstyle.

Click to expand...

I really don't find this to be the case at all. Tech selection depends on your nearby terrain and resources, your immediate needs (eg military, happiness, etc.), on your long-term goals, on your civilization traits.

But I look forward to seeing what you guys have come up with.

Sounds awesome! Can't wait to try it out.

Copied this to post #1 for reference.

Looks interesting.

Are you confident that the AI was already myopic in its choice of techs - ie that it chose techs based only on their flavors, not on what they enabled? Because if it is not myopic then adding for eg wonder and spaceship flavors to biology might be overkill.

I'm 99% confident the core goal-choosing AI just looks at flavors. If the core code directly checked numbers, dropping the flavor system entirely would save Firaxis thousands of dollars of work-hours.

I doubt this will affect the core AI much either way. The main benefit is helping humans: players new to the mod, people analyzing balance, and saves me time when moving things on the tech tree.

While the increased detail helps humans, it does not appear to affect AI players for better or worse. I checked the vanilla advisor recommendations with and without these changes. I think the advisors recommend the same things AI players get. The choices seem bad either way. The main problem is detail. The military icon tells us a tech's good for military, but what kind of military... archers, horses, ships? It's not enough information to make a decision. There's not even icons for players who want to pursue culture or religion.

The advisor system looks really nice. This game has fantastic artists, and I'm really happy with whoever was on the art team. Sadly, whoever wrote the code for advisor recommendations did not provide useful information beyond the basic tutorial-level stuff. The advisor icons don't even show up on the tech tree!

I figure they did things this way because it costs less for a low-salary game tester to enter flavor numbers by hand, than an expensive programmer to create an AI. The 60 hours of work it took me to create this AI equals about $2400 on a mid-level game programmer salary. That's why so many shooter games are multiplayer-only, so they don't need to spend thousands of dollars for an expensive AI.

This is great for people not familiar with the game, and for keeping airheaded people from getting too distracted (that's pointed right at me hahaha)

Looks very good. And the displayed flavour system does invalidate my caveat of not changing too much. It actually works that way

I always felt that the graphic display of the tech tree was lacking in civ 5. Take f.e. Electricity above. It's also by a small graphical bend that you see that it leads to only Mass Production, and not also Flight, or that Flight does not require Dynamite. It's clear after a second look (and then afterwards from knowing it), but I still feel the arrows could have been made a bit more "disjointed" or shifted/staggered to be more clear. But that's very minor.

Looking forward to see it.

Hey Thal, could this AI be used to make a similar feature to Alpha Centauri where instead of selecting a single tech, you decided on a 'flavor' to research (e.g. Growth, Military) and the most suitable tech was chosen? This feature wouldn't intrude on anything (As it would be purely optional) but it's a cool thing to have, in my humble opinion.

@mitsho
I agree about the difficulty reading the small tech link curves, and I actually managed to avoid the problem for most of the tech tree. You see it here just because everything channels through 2 techs in the industrial era (Scientific Theory and Industrialization) so there's a pinching effect.

@albie_123
Yes, an optional research method using flavors would be easy to accomplish.

Oooo.... that gave me an unrelated idea! I've GOT to do something... be back later.

Well, that's an epic tease, gotta now what you're talking about...

@albie_123 So if I get it right, the benefit of such a system is purely optical? You could take two seconds more and chose the flavour yourself. I'm not sure many would use that features, it's similar to the automated worker that nobody really trusts do to do anything logical. Or at least, I haven't used the automated worker yet... But yeah, stuff like that is always nice to have