OSG 16 - Training Day

Snaproll

Hamster Sidekick
Joined
Jan 2, 2002
Messages
954
Location
Colorado
Welcome to OSG 16, where a couple of us newbies are going to learn the finer points of MOO under the tutelage of a few resident experts. Here is the game:

Sakkra, Medium, Hard, 5 opponents

Variant rules:
1. No exploits, just win

Roster:
dathon (expert)
Snaproll (trainee)
mostly_harmless (trainee)
Zed-F (expert)
Ignatious (trainee?)
Azoth (trainee)

dathon is going to kick off the game on the right foot for us and then us newbies will take over from there. Zed and dathon will play the first few rounds (most likely) and then back off and let the 4 trainees take it from there, with the two experts serving in advisory roles.

dathon, I'm not sure the protocol on how many turns each player plays for MOO - can you include that when you start the game?
 
Checking in. Standard operating procedure is 20-30 turns for the first person, 20 turns for the next couple, 10 after that. For this game, I'll play 20, and then we'll do 10 turns each. I'm not sure whether Zed actually wanted to play this game or not; I think he was just offering because we were short of spots. Not that I want him to leave; it would be cool if he played. I'm just not expecting it :) Turns forthcoming tomorrow night or Monday.

dathon
 
And at the risk of sounding like a broken record,
"Checking in."

-Azoth
 
Alright, open MOO, set up the game, and hit start. The first thing I do is check out the map:



I usually look at the opponent list first. Humans and Silicoids are a risk for an early council loss, plus the Rocks necessitate guarding "our" hostile worlds if they start near us. Klackons are always dangerous, and the Mrrshan and Bulrathi can mean trouble for early war, especially since as the Sakkra, we will have bad relations with them. We've drawn a corner start, meaning expansion will be vital to break out and grab our share of land. The line of yellow stars through the center of the map, likely to contain several homeworlds, makes that doubly important.

We have two starting planets in range, the white N of Sssla, and the green to the E. Right off the bat, we have a difficult choice. The green has much better odds of having a habitable planet, while the white star brings other stars within range. The two stars look to be ~4 parsecs apart. I can either send the col ship immediately to one of them, or wait and scout. If I wait and scout, then the first colony gets delayed by 3 turns (which is significant). If I send to the white, I could get very lucky and land a habitable world in good position, but the odds are definitely not good for that, and mostly likely I'll end up settling the green anyway, but 4 turns later. So I went with the higher odds, and sent the col ship to the green. It's always a good idea to save before sending that first col ship. Once in a blue moon, that first star will be Orion, which will pretty much skunk your game. RB rules is if that happens, reload, burn a scout by sending it to Orion, THEN send the col ship to any other options.

The other decision I have to make is where to send the scouts. They should go to the likely habitable (green, red, yellow) stars most likely to be scouted by AI's. In this case, I chose the green to the NW, and as most other stars were out of range, the white star to the N.

Now for three turns of factory building. I usually don't build scouts right of the gate unless I'm on a cramped small map on Hard or Impossible. Our ships arrive, and what do we find? A desert 50 at the white star (Helos) and a size 75 Toxic rich at the green (Toranor). Of course the game decided to give me the unlikely result after all that discussion on odds :lol: Nothing to do, but send the colony ship to Helos, where it will settle in 4 turns.

Often the second colony is founded on turn 2 or 3, which is the time to build and dispatch some scout 2's:



That second scout is identical to the ones provided at the start, only it costs 2 BC less. Not sure why this is the case, but it is. Colony ships follow this rule as well. I can build 4 scouts for the remaining planets in range in one turn, and I squeezed 1 more off for Toranor in case the Silicoids are nearby. After another round of factories, I belatedly realized I'll need scouts for the worlds that come in range when Helos settles, and built 3 more.

Helos is indeed settled in 2307. With the colony ship's maintenance gone, I can pump two clicks on Sssla away from clean up to factories; this will always be the case. Now I need to decide how many settlers to send. Pop growth is determined by a bell curve equation, with max growth occurring when the planet is half-full, and least growth both near zero and pop max. A good target to shoot for is landing 1/3 of the planet's max (including the two initial settlers). At 1/3 of max pop, the growth starts to become significant, and that mark usually has factories and pop completing at about the same time. Because we're the lizards and founded Helos so late, Sssla already has 75 pop, so I can easily send 15 to Helos. Normally, I don't like to drop the homeworld under 45 with transports, so I'll send the colonists in batches, and only after building scout ships. Those initial scouts are very important, and on Hard and Impossible, the homeworld starts at 40 pop anyway, and needs a few turns to grow. It's also important to micro the eco slider during transport; after scheduling the colonists, I need to bump up two clicks spending to avoid waste. Next turn, I'll be able to drop it a click.

The next few turns see factory construction at Sssla, and scouting reports coming in from the field. Starting at the green NW of Sssla, we have:

*Hyades, Ocean 45
*The purple is Zoctan, a radiated size 10. Beat a Human scout there by one turn, so Sol is almost certainly in that yellow star N of it.
*The green to our SE had a size 60 artifacts! :D (Romulas)



Nice tech to pull. It's a bonus, without being gamebreaking. Like Civ3 and settlers from huts, pulling range or planetology tech from an artifacts planet can mean a runaway start.
*The white star to our SW is Yarrow, a size 30 Tundra
*Finally, the red SW of Yarrow is Denubius, a size 80 steppe.

All in all, some pretty good land here. I haven't seen any rock scouts yet, so we should be able to land that toxic world no problem.

With our initial scout reports back, it's time to open up some of the tech fields. It's always a good idea to wait until most of your scouts report back, so you know what propulsion tech you want, and if you need Controlled Barren. Here, we don't need Barren, and Range 4 is sufficient to get to all of the stars we've seen in initial range. It takes 3BC to open a tech field, and initial investment in any new tech is quartered, so it's a good idea to open with as close to the minimal amount as possible. I like to start with Construction, Planetology, and Propulsion. Early waste reduction is critical to the economy, so I like to know if 80% is on hand. Terra +10 is the best bang-for-the-buck tech in the game, and Improved Eco is the best bang-for-the-buck clean up tech. Propulsion is usually the most important tech to research early on. Each click on the tech screen is a 2% allocation. An easy way to measure out equal amounts is to hit "=" on the tech screen; this will set all fields equal. Then, you can simply dump weapons, computers, and shields into one of the other for a perfect 1/3. 12BC from Sssla, and here's what we have:



We missed on RW80%, but we will have 60%, which we can see because we got Duralloy from the Artifacts world. No choices for Planetology or Propulsion. We got our Range 4, but missing +10 and Improved Eco is a bit of bad luck. Helos is a bit immature still, and Range 4 will research quickly, so I'm going to hold off on starting that for a few turns.

Our second wave of scouts reports back. We chase a Mrrshan scout away from the yellow to our W, and find Escalon, a size 100 Terran; very nice! Sol is indeed the yellow star to our N, and W of Sol is Firma, a size 45 artifacts. It's 5 parsecs from Helos, and only 4 from Sol, so the apes will undoubtedly land that. On Impossible, I'd be building LR laser ships to hold Escalon. Here, I'm going to see if I can nab it by squeezing out an early Range 4, and two col ships (one for Hyades, which is 4 parsecs from Escalon).

I wait until Helos can pull about 20 RP on the tech slider before setting up research into Range 4. Tech investment in MOO has "interest" that works in kind of a quirky way. Basically, every BC invested on a given turn up to 7.5% of all RP invested in the tech to date is tripled. For instance, say that you had invested 100RP in a given tech. This turn, the first 7.5BC you invest will be tripled. So, if you invest 10BC more, you get 7*3 + 3, or 24RP for a total of 124RP (I believe MOO FLOORs this calculation). Next turn, you can triple up to 125 * .075, or 9 BC. So you can research a tech for much less than its cost, at the expense of taking much longer to do it, and a LOT of micromanagement. You won't see me use this trick past the first one or two techs, certainly not after I start researching more than one tech at once.

After doing this a few times, I've gotten a feel for doing it without calculation. Basically, I start with an investment from Sssla alone of ~70 BC (69 to be exact here). That allows 5BC to be tripled. Next turn, I put Sssla back on factories, and assign 5BC from Helos to research, leaving the rest in factories, and I note how many factories I can build at that level. Now, each progressive turn, I keep the factory construction rate about the same, which increases the research level at Helos by 1-3 every turn. While not exact, this approximates the curve pretty well, especially for cheap techs. Once the bulb gets close to being full, I'll start adding more, until I'm at full research when the percentages hit.

While Helos is researching/building factories, I'm constructing factories at Sssla. Like most 4X games, growth curve is very important in MOO. A few turns of factories early on can make the difference later between getting to worlds, researching that key tech sooner, building those needed military ships to fend off a sneak attack in time, etc.

The bulb for Range 4 was almost full come 2320, and I didn't want to leave that mid-stride, so I took another 10 turns. I built 4 scouts out of Sssla for when Range hit, then started on a colony ship. I figured Range 4 had about 5 turns, and that's how long it would take Sssla to build it. Turns out I hit it right on the money; the ship completed in 2326, the same turn Range 4 popped :D My choice for tech was an interesting one. I could take Nuclear Engines, or Inertial Stabilizer. I took IS, hoping for Sublights in the next rung. The AI highly prizes IS, and will thus trade quite a bit for it.

The first col ship will reach Hyades in 5 turns, so I set Sssla to build another col ship in 5 turns, and put Helos back on factories for growth. There aren't any other techs worth sacrificing the curve for. IIT9 might be nice, but in this situation, I think I would only pause to research a clean-up tech or IT+10.

So here we are at 2330. Hyades will be colonized next turn, and Escalon's ship will be done. The Humans did indeed grab Firma, bringing 18 mediums with their col ship. Scouts are on their way to two new systems up North. Next up on the agenda for Snaproll:

*There are 4 scouts at Hyades. Once the planet is colonized, send them anywhere we haven't gone yet that's within 7 parsecs. Make sure to leave a ship at Hyades; otherwise, the AI will scout the planet if it can and send troops.
*Send colonists from Helos to Hyades once it's up, bringing it to 1/3. Helos should be kept on factories for now to get it up to speed.
*Sssla should go back on factories after finishing the next ship, and max out before the next ones. The only thing more important than maxing factories in Moo is staking claim to a fair share of worlds in disputed territory. We can't colonize Denubius anyway without Range 7 or Tundra bases. The only thing that would stop me from doing that is if our scout finds an amazing planet at the red NW of Hyades.
*Once Sssla is maxed, a col ship needs to be built for Romulas.
*After that, we'll need to assess the situation. If the Mrrshan are boxed in and really close to Escalon, we may need some laser ships to hold the planet. If not, we can research Controlled Barren; we need to see if Tundra is in our tree, and with Duralloy, that should give us enough tech for an LR colony ship.

Roster:
dathon <-- just played
Snaproll <-- UP NOW
mostly_harmless <-- on deck
Zed-F
Ignatious
Azoth

It's good SG etiquette to post the roster, noting who's up and on deck. And just so everybody knows, standard rules are to post an "I got it" within 24 hours, play and post within 48 of that. Save for this game is slot 3.

I know this was a very long read, but I have no idea where everybody is in their knowledge, so I just laid everything out as explicitly as possible. I'm really hoping this game has a lot of questions and discussion. There is no dumb question! Going to be a good time. :goodjob:

dathon
 

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Wow! That was quite a read - I really do have a lot to learn. I've got the game but I'm still at work so I'll be playing a little later tonight, but I had some questions / comments:

Wow, bad luck on the starting planets. I understand your rationale though. Makes sense.

I think I've got the hang of the population growth model through your paragraph and Sirian's tutorial.

I have a question about this statement:

initial investment in any new tech is quartered

That seems arbitrary to me. Does that mean that if you put all of your research (let's say 100BC) into propulsion the first turn that you open research (say, because you KNOW you need more range asap) that only 25 of it will count? But, on the other hand, if you open propulsion with 3BC and then, on the NEXT turn, you bump it up to 100, then you will get the full 100 (ignoring the interest effect for now)? Wow. That seems like it's really important to know if that's the case.

Can you explain why +10 terraforming is so efficient? I was under the impression that terraforming gets cheaper (per population point) the higher up in the tree that you get. I may just be backwards on that...

The interest stuff on tech research hurts the brain. Do you have equations for it? I actually think that would make it clearer (I'm an engineer).

I think this is a related question, but I don't understand this comment:

The bulb for Range 4 was almost full come 2320, and I didn't want to leave that mid-stride, so I took another 10 turns.

I believe I have a good handle on the recommendations for my turns.

What do you mean by
Save for this game is slot 3.
?
 
Initial investment in a tech is quartered

Alas, I can't find where I first read this. I think one of the really old threads on RB, where somebody named, um, Catwalk I think? did a bunch of testing on this. Arbitrary or not, it's the way it goes, IIRC. It's one of those little nuggets I've remembered, without remembering why or where it came from.

Can you explain why +10 terraforming is so efficient?

Because you get the most extra pop/factories for the least investment. Tech cost is (Difficulty) x (Item Base level^2) x (Racial Modifier). So for a nominal race on hard difficulty, +10 costs 35 * 4 = 140BC for 10 people and 20 more factories, or 14 BC for one more person and 2 factories. +20 costs 35*64 = 2240 BC for 20 people, and 40 more factories, or 112BC per person/2 factories. And the costs scale up from there, and is a LOT worse of you already researched +10. +10 is therefore the cheapest way to add to your economy. Of course the upper terraforming techs should be researched; it's just you get more for your money from +10.

The bulb for Range 4 was almost full come 2320, and I didn't want to leave that mid-stride, so I took another 10 turns.

Because I was trying to get the technology on the cheap using the interest, I didn't want to hand it over in the middle of that process.

Save for this game is slot 3.

If you look in your MOO directory, you'll see 7 saves; save1.gam, etc. This corresponds to the six save slots you can use in the save menu, with a 7th for the continue button. So I saved the game to slot 3 (save3.gam), so you'll have to unzip to your MOO directory (overwriting any saves you have in the third slot!), and load from there.

As for the tech equation, I'm an engineer too, so I'll see if I can put that into an equation tomorrow.

dathon
 
Alright, I've grabbed the game, and things are looking good. We'll settle Haydes next turn and the colony ship for escalon is all set - perfect timing! I don't see anything to change, so here we go...

Turn 1 - Well, we chase away a human scout from the red planet near Haydes, and we don't find the good planet we were hoping for - quite far from it, actually:



We settle Haydes and immediately I send 13 colonists from Helos, which will put it at 15 (I think), or 1/3. This requires three clicks in Helos' ecology slider to keep it from producing waste. I send the colony ship from Sssla to Escalon, due in 7 turns, and turn Sssla back to maximum factory construction. I also deploy the 4 awaiting scouts as suggested. Ummm... I think that's it!

Turn 2 - We scout Zoctan, the red star NE of Sol - it's a 65 Ocean. It's probably going to get nabbed by the humans. That's pretty much all the action this turn...

Turn 3 - Sssla hits the "max" threshold on factory construction, so I reduce the slider so that it will just barely max its factories, putting the remainder into colony ship construction. I figure we want to get that artifacts world as soon as we can. Is this the right approach here?



Turn 4 - Bad news - the Silicoids show up with a colony ship... at Escalon!



You can see it retreating from the planet here. Does that mean they have it scouted? I chased it away with the scout. So, I'd normally think that we should get some popguns there pretty quick, but with our colony ship already on the way, we can't get them there any earlier that that, anyway. Sssla maxed factories this turn, as expected, so I put it on full-throttle ship construction, but we may want to think about getting some popguns at Escalon soon? Am I right on this?

Turn 5 - A very quiet turn. The colonists showed up at Haydes, that's about it.

Turn 6 - Another quiet turn...

Turn 7 - We find the Bulrathi's way out to the West:



This was one of the scouts that I sent out after colonizing Haydes. And, indeed, this is Ursa.

Turn 8 - A big turn. First of all, we chase away a Mrrshan scout at Regulus, a Dead Ultra Rich NW of Human territory. I suppose if we get the tech before the humans we may be able to grab that.



And we also settle successfully on Escalon! Yay!



Then, one of our scouts stumbles on Talas, SW of Escalon, which is another artifacts planet!



Alas, it has already been settled by the Mrrshans, who are pulling a 2 planet empire to our southwest. I'll just leave the scout there for now - I imagine we'll get kicked off before long.



I dial up the Mrrshans (Xenophobic, Industrialist) and to try and get a trade agreement, but they denied the offer. Wow, they don't like the lizards, do they?

Finally, Sssla finishes the colony ship, which is the last one we need, barring the Ultra Poor in the NW. Should I have built another colony ship for that right now?? It didn't seem worth it to me.

Ok, now for moving colonists. Here is my thought process:

Haydes is at 26 out of 45 colonists now, but still has very few factories. I went ahead and sent 11 colonists directly to Escalon, keeping Haydes at 15 (1/3). I figure I'll send a few more every year, since Escalon is more important, both strategically and as a bigger planet in its own right.

Secondly, Helos has built 60 factories (out of 100) and is nearing 50 colonists again, so I go ahead and send 10 colonists from Helos to Escalon as well. Erm... not sure about this move. All of Helos' factories will still be in use, but it'll grow slowly since it is near its max. I could probably use some advice here. So, there are a total of 23 colonists on the way to Escalon, with a few more from Haydes in the next few turns to bring it to 1/3.

Finally, I send the colony ship from Sssla to Romulus. My next dilemma is what to do with Sssla now. I have two options, as I see it - go full bore into tech, or build some popguns for Escalon. And, in what may be another weedy decision, I whip up a popgun design (complete with duralloy armor and a class 1 shield) and set Sssla to RELOC to Escalon. I'll build one turn's worth and then switch to tech... (was this total weed?)

Turn 9 - 9 popguns pop out of Sssla and head out towards Escalon. Is 9 enough to matter? Should I do another turn's worth, now that I've set us on this path? 9 will scare away an early armed colony ship, so I turn Sssla to full tech research. I send another 2 colonists from Haydes to Escalon.

Now I need to decide how to distribute the tech spending. Ugh. I'm going to admit this up front - this is the part of MOO I understand the least right now, and will probably need the most help on. Here's my thoughts:

We haven't opened up computers, force fields, or weapons yet, so I put one click on each one (out of the 139 BP's) we have to open them. Now we need to divide the remaining between construction (Industrial tech 9), Planetology (Controlled Barren), and Propulsion (Inertial Stabilizers). None of these seems remarkably pressing at the moment, so I distribute things relatively evenly, with some priority to Planetology since that is our racial bonus:



Did I do this ok?

Turn 10 - We open up the other three trees, and our choices are:

Computers: Deep Space Scanner (only choice)
Force Fields: Class II Deflector (obviously)
Weapons: Hyper-V (only choice)

Ha! at least I don't have to make any difficult decisions! None of these seem particularly pressing, so I leave the research sliders where they are.

And that's it...

Roster:
dathon
Snaproll <-- just played
mostly_harmless <-- UP NOW
Zed-F <-- on deck
Ignatious
Azoth

The Game
 
Unlike you have a specific question which makes you feel unable to proceed, I'd say go for it! No need to routinely wait for comments before your turn - after all, the point of an OSG is to play the cards you're dealt.

Also, this is Training Day - how are we supposed to learn, if nobody will dare to make mistakes ... ;)

ignatius
 
Discussion = good
So I'll post my thoughts/questions/comments.
But I can't vouch for their validity...or sound organization.

On colonization:
I would probably settle Anraq (the size 55 ultra poor) right away. My reasoning? Regulus (the size 25 ultra *rich*) is four parsecs away. Ultra riches are nice to have on principle, and since we're rated excellent at planetology, I'd imagine we have a good chance of getting Controlled Dead+ before the humans do. By colonizing Anraq, we would also open more stars to our north and west for scouting, and establish contact with the human leader. (Anraq is 4 parsecs away from Sol.) The latter might be a good thing; it would let us start trading with a friendly race early. But it might not: would an ultra poor next to their homeworld be an irresistable target? In general, though, I think that any world, even one as awful as Anraq, is better of in our hands than anyone else's, especially if it leads to other worlds. Does that make sense?

On the Mrrshans:
Two-planet empire? Hemmed in by the Bultrathi to the north? The Mrrshans appear to have room to expand to their south and west, but the yellow star to their west could be Cryslon. That Silicoid colony ship we saw at Escalon must have come from somewhere. Either the Silicoids had Range 4 + an alliance with the Mrrshans or Range 5 + an alliance with the Bulrathi. If they were allied with the Bulrathi, their empire is probably up in the northwest of the galaxy, but if not...
So the Mrrshans might not be boxed in quite yet, and happily their leader is neither Ruthless nor a Militarist, but they'll probably go to war soon anyway. And since we're only 4 parsecs away, I would not wait to be kicked out of Talas' (their second world) orbit. I think that orbiting an alien planet, even with a scout, is seen as provocative, and will hurt relations without benefitting us. We could send the scout to the stars to the south.

On our military:
Now this is *my* weak point. I usually don't build much military early on, and every once in a while it costs me. We probably should have some ships at Escalon. Maybe at Anraq/Regulus? Should we build more popgun fighters or design a larger laser fighter? I really don't know.

On research:
Not much to say; I would have done exactly what Snaproll did. Putting priority on planetology makes sense to me: improved terrarforming, advanced cleaup technology, and controlled tundra/dead would all be useful.

My two cents, for what they're worth.

Azoth.
 
Since mostly-harmless, was asking, here are my 2cents on the game so far:

dathon and Snaproll did a good job at securing us our fair share of planets despite this less than ideal corner start.

The only thing I would have done differently is going for nuclears (for their immediate expansion value) rather than inertial stabilizers (for future trade value), mostly b/c nuclears are only 36% of IS's cost while both techs advance the tree and (probably) will allow for LR-cols.

As for our startegic agenda: IMO the real decision is now between consolidation and aggressive further expansion. With the position of our immediate neighbours now known, there are 8 planets which can rightfulls be considered "ours" (basically settled planets plus backyard) and 5 disputed planets (Zoctan, Anraq, Regulus coreward and the two unexplored south of Talas) within scout range, some of which me might have a shot at with peaceful means before we are completely boxed in.

While turtling with a 10PE on a medium map can generally be a viable option in some circumstances, the real danger I see is that either the Klackons or the Coids will most likely be in a runaway position and we will need more than our fair share of planets early to be competitive. Also, given the Mrrshans already hate us, we will not stay out of war very long nor be able to collect a reasonable peace dividend.

Other observations include:
  • our own racial bonus is perfect for early war gropo action when many planets are not yet fortified by missle bases.
  • Mrrshan are Industrialists, so might have a somewhat smaller war fleet than usual (note that fleet sizes in the status report do include colships)
  • by having duralloy we are at least a generation ahead in construction, so our transports and ships have more HPs and can pack more weapons

To cut a long story short: IMO, we might have a window of opportunity to make a play for Talas and catch the kitties on the wrong foot. Like any early war, it's a very risky proposition (with the potential of outright losing us the game), but also with very high rewards (another artifact planet and a secured southern pathway to the west for further expansion).

Even if any early invasion at this time is probably not a reasonable move for a Training Day OSG, it would interst me what you guys, esp. the veterans, think on the matter - insane or something to be considered?

ignatius
 
Commentary for Snaproll's turnset:

I'm going to say this up front: nobody should take any criticism personally! Comments may sound harsh at times, but they are directly solely at gameplay, not the person making it!

All in all, not bad! :) Definitely some things to work on, though.

*Turn 1:
- Pretty much what I suggested, so no comments :)

*Turn 2:
-Did you remember to turn back the eco slider at Helos after the troops had left? Often times after sending troops, especially a large batch, the eco slider needs turned up, and then set back. MOO has some problems calculating what will be produced on a planet with colonists leaving; you'll notice sometimes that the turn of transport ship ETA will be different than the turn after. Thus I'm pretty sure the game overestimates what you'll need for waste clean up the turn of transport, which is why the slider needs to go up so much, and also why it can be dropped again. It's worth it to pump the slider up to where it says it is clean, though, as you definitely don't want any waste buildup.

-The Humans will undoubtedly grab ZHARDAN ;) It's out of range, and not worth trying to go after. In fact, looking at the save, they did so on your turnset.

*Turn 3:
-Good job with the sliders at Sssla! That is the right approach. That extra production can be used for either ship construction (right call here) or research in other situations.

*Turn 4:
-There is no way to know if the rocks have scouted Escalon or not. I've seen the AI send out unescorted colony ships to unscouted planets. They could be holding the red star S of Talas, or they could have an early alliance with the Bears.

*Turn 8:
-MOVE THAT SCOUT! Leaving ships in orbit a) pisses off the AI and b) draws military to the area.
-It's a long shot, but I would have been tempted to make a colony for the UP planet. I usually take the mindset of "expand as much as possible, and let the AI tell me when I've stuck my neck out too far" If the Humans don't contest the planet, that's 55 more Lizards. And if they do, it's four turns of production from Sssla. Worth the gamble.
-As for the population movement, I definitely would have done that differently. I would have sent a full 25 from Helos, and none from Hyades! Unless it's a rich or artifacts world, it's almost always a good idea to use your second colony as a "seed" world. By doing so, you do slow down its growth, but you vastly increase the growth of insecure worlds on your borders. True Hyades is a smaller planet, but that means it will take longer to stand up to the point of being able to defend itself. Sending colonists from there only sets it back further. Helos is under no threat, so slowing its growth curve is not a big deal. Usually it's a good idea to get enough factories on your second planet to keep half the population employed, and use it for research while seeding new colonies, especially since in a lot of situations your homeworld is needed for colony ships/defense early on.
-You're right; 9 popguns won't make a lick of difference at Escalon. If the cats come for the planet, they'll come with more force than 9 fighters can handle, especially given their racial bonus.
-As for the popguns themselves, I've rarely found it worth putting any technology on them. It's a matter of numbers. For the cost of those 9 popguns, you could have had 12 guns from bare fighters. If you feel that the situation requires an armored ship, it's usually a better idea to upgrade to a large hull, and just build 1 or 2. Given that we really want to keep Escalon, and that the Ruthless Mrrshan are next door and not very friendly, I would do just that.



The Heavy Lasers are very effective against laser-only ships; with proper maneuvering on the tactical screen, you can get several shots in before they can land even one. Early computers are very expensive; you can get the attack level, plus more initiative and intel from scanners. It's always a good idea to break up large numbers of the same weapon into different banks if you can spare the room. This allows for more options, and less wasted shots on the tactical screen. I would design and build one of these, and send to Escalon.

*Turn 9:
-As for research, one of the most common mistakes is branching out tech too early. We are still in full-tilt expansion mode; we need expansion techs! Remember, what can wait should. Opening shields, computers, and weapons now is premature. Likewise researching Stabilizers. What we really need to keep expanding is Controlled Barren. That will let us build an LR col ship to nab Denubius, and bring us a step closer to Tundra for Yarrow (hopefully) and +20 (hopefully). All of our research should be going here to get it as soon as possible.

Oh, and one more thing: it's usually a good idea to be more descriptive with your file name. Save3.zip doesn't tell me what it is once I've downloaded it to my computer. Besides, you'll have problems uploading an identical name on your next turn :) My convention is "osgXX_2YYY.zip", giving the game number, and game date of the save.


Suggestions for mostly harmless:
*Design and build a large sentry ship for Escalon from Sssla
*Send whatever is needed from Helos to get Escalon to 1/3, and then it can go on research.
*All research can go to Barren, with one click in each of the other areas to preserve BC already spent.
*Once Barren comes in, we need Tundra. Barring that, +20.
*Also when Barren comes in, design an LR col ship for Denubius. Don't want that world poached.
*Keep trying to get min trade with the cats. Unlikely we'll be friends, but if can get relations out of the toilet, we may buy some time.

Remember, think long term! The more we grab at the beginning, the stronger our empire will be down the road. Expand, expand, expand!

dathon
 
Thanks for all the comments! I'm glad I didn't mess things up too badly.

Did you remember to turn back the eco slider at Helos after the troops had left?

Yes! :)

Leaving ships in orbit a) pisses off the AI and b) draws military to the area.

I didn't know that! Learned something. As for the population and popgun comments, I see your points on both. Maybe I don't have as good a feel for the population stuff as I thought. Fortunately we are the Sakkra...

Also, I didn't actually choose Inertial Stabilizers - I believe dathon did, which is why I put some research into it - I thought we were prioritizing it so we could trade it?

The decision to go for a Colony ship for the UP was certainly one that I agonized a lot about. I just figured that it would be too hard to defend. When you put it in terms of the 55 lizards vs. 4 turns of production, I can see your point. Probably should've gone for it. I guess in my own personal games whenever I push as hard as I can on colonization the AI invariably shops my head off - I'm in more of a defensive mode these days. Though, maybe it's ok to let the AI chop a few fringe worlds off from time to time, as you suggest.

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts on the Talas invasion idea that ignatious suggested, as well. That one didn't even occur to me this early in the game.
 
I am playing at the moment.
Just my thoughts on the early war against TALAS.
We are facing 50 kitties there currently. The only major contigent we could send now would be 50 lizards from SSSLA, which would cripple our economy plus it takes 10turns!
Maybe the option for invasions arises later, when we have more planets settled and maxed to provide more cannon fodder plus a navy to keep the orbit free for the landing pods.
My noob opinion.
mh
 
Regarding Talas.... interesting idea ignatius. However, I think it's a bit premature. The kittens are running a 2PE, and are likely to have quite a sizeable fleet at Fierias, which would simply come down and stomp us there. Mostly-harmless hit it right on the head; it would take a LOT out of our growth curve for a very risky invasion. Better to put the resources into building our empire and tech levels faster, and come take the planet a little later when we have a much better chance at taking and holding it.

Regarding the UP... I didn't suggest that Harmless pursue it, as I feel we missed the window there. If it's still available after Denubius is colonized, than yeah, maybe we'll want to make a play for it.

Regarding Stabilizers... Nukes vs Stabilizers is always a difficult call, often with no clear answer. I did choose IS for trade value, but that's a future thing; we won't be considering that for at least 40 turns, probably more. I only chose it when I did because I had to with Range 4 finishing :) Our empire isn't very spread out, and aside from Escalon we are pretty sheltered, so I felt the immediate benefit from nukes wasn't worth it.

Regarding ECM... On ships, I almost never use ECM. They take a lot of space, are often expensive, and don't usually matter much. Large/Huge ships are built around taking punishment, not evasion, and small/medium ships can usually get away with numbers and maneuverability. ECM is somewhat important for missile bases, making them less susceptible to enemy missiles, bombs, and spores. Usually not worth skipping much for, but if it's been 5 or so levels since an ECM update, and my computers are fairly up to date, I'll research an ECM.

Regarding waiting for comments... I didn't mention this before, but try to play your turnset all the way through without coming back for comments unless you're absolutely stumped. If you come across a difficult decision, think about it and make the choice you think best. We'll let you know if it's not :mischief: As for between turnsets, might be a good idea to wait a little bit for some comments, especially here at the beginning. That way everybody gets a chance to consider what went right/what was sub-optimal.

Think I got everything...
dathon
 
Ok,
first thing, I am running the program not under the DOS box, so no screenshots unfortunately.

IHT:
- I move the offending scout2 out of TALAS' orbit towards galactic south.
- I adjust the teching according to dathons suggestion. (did not know about the one click = preserving research thing)
- give one click worth budget to Kitties espionage ("hide" of course) I always do this on first contact to get an idea about the tech level.
- Design "Laser 1" packing 2x3 heavy laser banks and 2x5 laser banks for the infighting. I am not using a computer to reduce costs (ships purpose is probably deterrence). I am also not using battle scanners early on. Intel can come from the espionage section and somewhat later from the missile bases (at least when defending). Not using the battle scanner allows me to pack one more heavy laser. Either we can hold off any invasion with the ship or not. A scanner won't make much difference in that respect.

Turn 1:
Not much, send out one scout to the southwest.

Turn 2:
ROMULAS the artifacts world in the back lines is settled.
I decide to send 18 bodies over from SSSLA actually, as it is the closest. I use the eco slider to replenish the ranks adding +18pop to the growth. This is what I normally do. I will loose one turn of ship construction, but I feel the need to for getting our artifacts world up and running.

A Silicoid colony shows up west of ESCALON.

Turn 3:
We scout WHYNIL (55 Steppe) at the red star just south of TALAS. SSSLA is back to 99pops and will build the first Laser 1 in 3 turns, while still putting some beakers into tech.
I micro HELOS to the effect that it gets +2pop and 4.7 factories each turn. The idea is to have both items grow in parallel to always ensure each pop gets his 2 factories. Does that makes sense? Don't want to waste turns on empty factories.

Turn 4:
Klackons show up with a scout in orbit around REGULUS (the UR world next to SOL in the north) and retreat.
A bit of slider adjustments here and there.

Turn 5:
The Silicoid colony ship enters orbit around ESCALON. Our popgun 1 wing just made it this turn also, chasing the intruder away.
GNN 6 planet warning! The Silicoids, as expected.

Turn 6:
"Controlled Barren" comes in and I am offered "Terraforming +20" or "Controlled Dead" next. No Tundra, but as I understand, "Dead" includes the ability to do "Tundra" as well? Is that right?
Anyway, I go with the slightly cheaper "IT+20".
... which is unfortunate, as we just scouted RHA in the far southwest a 10 tundra rich planet. Bad luck here, but we might get "Dead" before we get the range. All that is irrelevant as the planet already houses a 25million strong heap of Silicoids. Pull the scouts out of orbit.
The first Laser 1 is finished in SSSLA and enroute to ESCALON.
Colony LR ship designed and ordered up in SSSLA next. This is intended for DENUBIUS according to the initial plan, however I feel WHYNIL might be more important to settle first, as it gives us a foothold in the south. Anyway, this decision will fall into the next turnset, so plenty of time to discuss this.

Turn 7:
Not much, 4 more factories and HELOS is maxed out in pop and factory.

Turn 8:
Bulrathi at WHYNIL! Our scout 2 chases off a colony ship. Bears that far south must mean, they have a alliance with cats, right? They cannot have that much range yet, surely?
Or they came from the yellow star west of FIERIAS?
Btw, still no trade treaty with the cats possible.

Turn 9:
Nothing.

Turn 10:
Colony LR is ready to leave orbit at SSSLA either going to DENUBIUS or WHYNIL. I would go maybe go to DENUBIUS first and then decide whether WHYNIL is still available.

Our first Laser 1 is arriving in orbit around ESCALON next turn.
Next turnset will get the Cats report up to date, I hope.
I left SSSLA on working another Colony LR for either one of the southern Steppe systems or the UP ANRAQ, if we loose out on one of the Steppes.
We are slightly ahead of the Cats status-wise, so it seems they are loosing out again.

Good luck and the save.

Roster:
dathon
Snaproll
mostly_harmless <-- just ruled
Zed-F <-- report for duty asap
Ignatious <-- warming up the engines
Azoth
 

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