Satyrs vs. Hunters (Hunters win)

[Sureshot]

satyrs dont quite seem worth building to me, except that they look cool. i'll compare them to hunters (red for differences):

Hunters
60 production
requires Exploration, Hunting (425science)
Recon unit
4 strength
2 moves
can upgrade to Rangers
can upgrade to Assassins
-20% city attack
+50% vs animals
better results from tribal villages
can build camps
can carry birds
scouts upgrade to them


Satyr
60+30=90 production
requires Exploration, Hunting, Ancient Chants, Mysticism, Way of Leaves (425+825=1250science)
Recon unit
4 strength
2 moves
can upgrade to Rangers
free woodsman promotion
no unit which upgrades to them
requires Leaves religion

so, you pay 50% production for woodsman promotion, and you give up:
1. -20% city attack
2. +50% vs animals
3. better results from tribal villages
4. can build camps
5. can carry birds
6. one of the upgrade paths (Assassin)
7. cant upgrade scouts to them

im not seeing the point, given the amount more production (50% more) and science (200% more), and the fact that you're trading away more than you gain to make a satyr than a hunter (woodsman for 1 through 7)


So, I'm thinking they need a lot more benefits, anyone got any ideas? or know some other way in which satyrs are good except for looking cool?

[woodelf]

I want them to charm animals with their pan flutes.

[Kael]

They are scehduled to get a mezmerize ability which lets them capture animals without combat and a "super ranger" upgraded form that requires a minimum level.

[Sureshot]

that could be good, though they might still need a boost to be worthwhile in the general case (sometimes no animals around). they just seem less than a hunter for way more of a cost in both research and production.

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

that could be good, though they might still need a boost to be worthwhile in the general case (sometimes no animals around). they just seem less than a hunter for way more of a cost in both research and production.

The big thing, as in all religion units, is that they dont require a hunting lodge.

[woodelf]

Maybe they can mesmerize low level enemies as well, or low intelligence ones.

[daladinn]

i see what your saying , but i would still rather have a satyr over a hunter on most days. they don't suffer a penalty when attacking cities and are carrying a free promotion that will be applied to them as they advance.

here is the way i see it...
-- early game you have a choice of hunter or satyr. odds are your going to have several hunters before you can even build a satyr. satyr do a much better job at attacking cites and the free promo makes them also better against other civs (hunters are still better vs animals).

-- mid to late game your odds of building a hunter to make an assassin are low because they share the same type (recon) and you would more then likely just build the assassin instead. however if your goal is rangers you now have 2 options...
---- satyr which are going to give you a free promo of woodsman 1 for your troubles (the only thing carrying through).
---- disciple of leaves which if you have been building the alter will give you more bonus xp as well as allowing some outside promotions since its a disciple unit.

my thoughts .....
satyr's should have their cost lowered to 60 to match hunters but otherwise remain unchanged.

[Sureshot]

hadnt thought about the free woodsman for a ranger upgrade, i think thats the only think id use them for atm heh

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by woodelf

Maybe they can mesmerize low level enemies as well, or low intelligence ones.

ya, and even having charm for now could help

[Nikis-Knight]

I see no reason why they can't carry birds, though.

[thomas.berubeg]

why not give satyrs a random nature spell promotion?

one satyr would have bloom, another would have vies, another mesmerize, another, maybe enrage or fear (Pan is the origin of the word panic: it was said music played by him and his satyrs could drive people insane through fear)

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Saytrs don't have the city attack penalty. This alloes them to take ememy towns in mass easier then hunters. In my last game as Ljosalfar I rushed Svaltalfar with Saytars and Warriors, and then the Clan. They are quite effective. I put in a few hunters but they all died.

[Mithrus]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

ya, and even having charm for now could help

I agree. Give them Charm Person for now would be a nice tactical change until you can get the mesmerize code working. I'd probably keep in even then, maybe even throw in a hero "Pan" unit

[feydras]

Themetically i'd rather see Satyrs drop the charm animal in favor of a limited charm person effect on low level or low intel units. Feels more like a satyr to me and i never see animals past early game probably due to my settings.

- feydras

[JDexter]

Actually Satyrs in lore play music for animals and faries, so charm animal makes a lot of sense.
Either would be cool as I also love that unit - so much style!

[Copper Golem]

And also they could increase birthrate in the cites.

[Lucius Sulla]

Originally Posted by woodelf

Maybe they can mesmerize low level enemies as well, or low intelligence ones.

Why, do you mean as in... *every* doviello unit?

[MrUnderhill]

I think the Charm Animal spell should replace Poisoned Blade for Nature 2 Sorcery. Poisoned Blade sounds more like a Shadow spell and this way Druids / Priests of Leaves could get access to Charm, as well.

[jenks]

im playing patch f on 0.25, didnt like the satyrs being such bad value so edited the xml to give them free subdue animal promotion.
still havent built one as i havent played a game as leaves since then, but think id be more likely to next time i go elves

[DeaExMachina]

Originally Posted by Rex rgis of Ter

Saytrs don't have the city attack penalty. This alloes them to take ememy towns in mass easier then hunters. In my last game as Ljosalfar I rushed Svaltalfar with Saytars and Warriors, and then the Clan. They are quite effective. I put in a few hunters but they all died.

I typically play with aggressive barbs on and I've got to save as Ljosalfar I've never built a Saytar. However in my last game as them on Emperor I completely wiped out my neighboring Clan of Embers with 1 warrior and 1 hunter. XD

En mass I loved my hunters and the penalty for cities is a small cost if you, like me, enjoy surrounding barb cities and never killing them to feed units constant xp for huge promotions.