All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

I'm on board with stuttrboys plan. Kill the vikings, keep nidaros, bag the wonders, at least early so it doesn't interfere with expansion. You've got the great wall, get some courthouses going, send a spy bomb to george, and steal techs galore.

If you're going for the spy economy, it really needs to be your focus or it doesn't work, especially at emperor. Mass cottages, research alphabet, and create lots of spies. Don't underestimate the number you'll need. figure in travel time and expect 40% to be found or fail. I know Bhruic just made an awsome post regarding the success of spies, but this works just like combat, you lose a lot more you should win rather than win a lot more you should lose. Once the bomb is dropped, you'll need a city dedicated to building spies.

In addition to stealing techs, you'll want to make use of counter espionage, fomenting unhappiness in washington and new york. Anything to keep him down. Destroying wonder production, razing courthouses. Yes, all these things slow his tech, however, you'll know what he is researching so you can aim can for different techs while waiting to steal what he's kind enough to research for you. You were talking about wiping him out earlier in the thread, so keeping him contained with other espionage tactics will help out your war in the long run.

Compass/optics should also be a priority. You'll be teching faster by stealing techs, however, getting overseas to meet the rest of the cast and crew is important in a spy economy. Once you meet the new folks, you can shift the priority of espionage commerce to them to get the passive effects working on them. A spy bomb overseas is unlikely, by that time techs will be very expensive to steal and I think you'd be better off with a scotland yard (or settled) to assist with getting the passive effects working on them.

stuttrboy said:

After Killing Ragnar of course. Nidaros is nice and juicy, I don't think we want to raze it, it will pay for itself pretty quickly with the fishes and a few cottages, or make it a GP farm though I think maybe there's a better spot for that.

Click to expand...

2 or 3 seafood plus cows, fresh water for health and coastal for a harbor....ummmm, where exactly did you think to find such a city? If both fishies are in Nidaros, then you have 22 food from working 4 tiles, that is 7 specialists. All the more reason to build the mids. After just 100 turns those seven specialists will have produce 2100 bonus beakers from Representation. at epic speed the combined beaker cost for CS AND Lit is 2242. That is like getting both techs for free in 102 turns. If you are running 7 scientists that is 2100 GPP. That is a lot of free GS.
And these beaker figures do not include a library or an academy. Or settled GS.
If you build the GL there (possible with the production from the cows and hills) then after using the first GS to build an academy and settling 2 more. with 2100 GS points you will have had more than those three. You have 9 scientists for 54 beakers and two GS for 18 beakers. 72 total plus 75% which is a whopping 126 beakers per turn. Not bad for the medevil era.
Add the National epic, which slightly pollutes the GP pool but kicks the total GPP to 54 per turn and even at epic you witll be cranking out GS like crazy.
On Epic the GP rate is 150 increase per GP. After 180 turns, you will have 8 more GS in addition the the 3 already generated. And that is without running Philosphy. By then we might not have the GL any more so we have 7 scientists and TEN settled GS. with oxford, library, university and observatory. That is 396 beakers per turn at ZERO science...settel those ten scientists in a fat cottaged city with about ten towns and it is even more.
Or as you reccomend we can wait a while (not generateing as many GS) and hope we find another food heavy city. By which time it will be too late to build the GL there.
Keep Nidaros.

I dunno, gang. The point of the ALC is to show off the Civ and Leader. The UU will be neglected if we don't Vulture Rush.

As for cities: If Ragnar has two (maybe three if he grabs the barb city) cities, then plain Chariots are going to have a problem . He seems to be lacking in metals, but he might decide to Archer-spam. Since we also don't have much of an idea regarding his tech status, he may decide to focus on Sailing to send Settlers that way.

As for war: Grab Nidaros while its weak. Chop/Whip some Chariots until you get Iron or Copper hooked, then blitz him or Washington with Vultures. It seems that you may be on a continent alone with Washington, though, so you might wait till Optics to beat him down.
1) Build a Chariot or 3 with Combat 1 promos, then capture Nidaros and that Worker
2) Chop a Settler and send the captured Worker with it to hook up either Iron or Copper ASAP.
3) Build Vultures and axe-rush Ragnar's remaining cities.
4) Tech to Alphabet through Priesthood (slower, yes, but more worthwhile)
5) Build Ziggurats and Spies. Then focus all espionage on Washington, to see his power.

OK, one last piece of bad advice. Send a settler to build a city over by the western copper and another to settle on the east coast. That makes a short road to the capital and with sailing we now have copper for Buzzards. City cost will be huge but that is what ziggies are for. This will showcase both the UB and the UU. This is the problem with resource dependent UU's in the ancient era. No ponies, copper or iron and basically you have no UU. And with most players beelining for CoL anyway. The early UB isn't all that special. With copper, Giggles can be great since you can build courthouses early, but they are not cheap so the early rex means your science drops for a while until you build them. Maybe ok for an SE but if not by the time you build them and your economy recovers so you can catch up in techs then you are basically on par with non ziggy civs, though you have the advantage of more cities. Unless you are against shaka, in which case you're basically hosed anyways.

A number of fortunate events like the tower shield event, but strategic choises could be better.
BTW i give cover promotions plentifully at my archery units (xbows/lbows). Gives them the edge against AI's xbows which seem to be employed with great frequency in BTS for counter attacks.

TheArchduke said:

The BTS AI ignores its early defense alot, but don´t count on that to last after 1000 BC. One Archer on the defence is still a monster and a 2nd one will be whipped even if you invade with chariots. So your first attack has to work and hurt.

Either you get 9 Chariots VERY soon, or I say leave him be. As soon as he got a 2nd archer he can rushbuild a 3rd one and if noone saw it that capital is on plains hills.

Click to expand...

After 1000BC? Not it wont last, but so shoudnt Ragnar last either. I see a capital on flatland without religion. Should take no more than twice the defending archers plus one. Ofcourse make haste with the charriots regardless. Chop/whip mercilessly as faster this early is much better.
Only tough luck is we cant attack directly cause of the bloody lake, so he'll likely have time to :whip: (just) once.

Vultures? Well then we should have gone for the copper, no matter the distance. Vultures are just early sword-city raiders of sorts. Basing them of iron makes them mostly redundant. To late now it seems i fear.

Hmm, raze Nidaros to reduce maintenance...? You are joking, right? Its a cruel joke too...
We ve got plenty of good coastal city sites with lakes, multiple seafoods, cows and grass-hills in this limited land?
I mean if i was somehow forced to choose between Nidaros and Uruk, i'd raze our capital GW and all included.

stuttrboy said:

The Mids are 450 hammers and the Oracle is 150, even at half off the mids are 1.5 times the hammers of the Oracle. While I have nothing against the mids we don't really need police state Rep or US and Hereditary Rule is easily researchable/tradeable early. pyramids with stone is nice but it will kill the Rex as will The Oracle for that matter, I don't think we should build either but just steal Washingtons techs instead. We beeline strategic techs and use spies and espionage to backfill with Washington while we REx out to 6-8 cities, spam cottages and win. Besides other wonders will pollute our GP pool and we want at least 2 spies for washington.

Click to expand...

Well yes the pyramids are the most expensive early wonder and for good reason. US may not be the best choise this early but what could be more heaven sent than representation? The boost placed excactly where needed, and scientist/spy specialists at max effectiveness at a time where their GP points are most efficient?

Much better investment than the GW. And consider the difficulty of getting GE i'd say pollution is coming the other way. Why are we going to need multiple GSpies anyhow? Are we going for a full spy economy? I think the best use for tech stealing is taking advantage of the sweet spot in medieval time when its most efficient, just like early GP points for that matter.

BTW, does getting the GW with the leader most early/easily getting GSpy points through his UB makes sense?
And seriously, i dont see how prioritizing either hunting or archery has or will help us?

You did get archery for free Sis, but considering your past experiences with huts i was short of expecting like MC - writing at worst.

Yeah rep would be cool if we make Nidaros a GPP farm since it has a ton of food, but it's hardly needed. Gilgamesh is one of the most versatile leaders in the game in my opinion, but Rep is much more useful with an SE than a CE and that seems to be what we are gearing towards. We will probably be taking this continent for ourselves later and cottages->towns are better than specialists in this situation. We won't be able to do any trading until optics and killing our rex early just to buff up one town seems a little misguided.

Round 3: 1725 BC to 925 BC (32 turns)

It was a relatively short round, but I accomplished some key goals.

I started by changing my research priorities, as suggested, focusing on pursuing the Oracle and obtaining access to the UB:



Meanwhile, I finished a barracks in Eridu, followed by a Monument to try to hang on to the horse tile. Uruk finished an Archer to protect against any incursions by that Viking Archer just outside my borders, near the barb city. Then I began building, chopping, and whipping Chariots.

I tracked down Ragnar's two other cities. One of them was a little worrisome, as it was right on top of a horse tile.



I didn't have Spearmen, Chariots' counter, so I knew I had to hurry before Ragnar could field too many of the units. A couple of Chariots I could handle--I'd just swarm them with my own. But an army of Viking Chariots would be troublesome, to say the least.

I had eight Chariots ready to go when I lost the cultural battle over the horse tile with the Viking capital.



It was time to declare war, even though this put me at an additional disadvantage of giving Ragnar two turns to reinforce Nidaros. It had two Archers before the border popped robbed me of visibility into the city.



I considered attacking Haithabu, his horse city, first, but that wouldn't get my own horses back. And my stack was closer to his capital anyway, so that became my first target.

It turns out Ragnar did whip a third defender in Nidaros, another Archer. He then sent an Archer out to threaten Eridu as my stack of Chariots closed in on Nidaros.



I suppose he was trying to threaten my weakly defended city and/or pillage something (maybe the horses if I took his capital). Nevertheless, this was, I think we'll all pretty much agree, an all-too-typical boneheaded move by the AI. Three fortified Archers may have been able to hold off eight Chariots. But two? Not a chance.

Here's how things went. I started by giving the first attackers Flanking promotions. I knew they'd likely suicide anyway. Combat I wouldn't improve the odds much, but Flanking I meant they might have a chance of living to fight another day.



The first attacker lost...



...but my second Chariot managed to withdraw!



The third flanking attack failed, but now I had severely weakened the two defenders, and it was time to give Combat I promotions and start finishing the Archers off.







I kept Nidaros. It looks like it will make a decent GP farm. The second fish is outside of its fat cross, unfortunately, but it does have 1 fish, 1 clam, and 1 wheat tile that will be irrigated via the city tile itself when Civil Service comes along. I also sent a Combat I Chariot at Ragnar's Archer, and despite very low odds (about 30%) I got a lucky RNG roll and won the battle.

I then sent my units at Ragnar's remaining cities. I first managed to capture two Workers outside of Uppsala while my other Chariots healed in Nidaros. Uppsala, by the time my stack was healthy enough to attack again, had only two Archers and one Chariot defending. I lost two new Flanking I Chariots in the initial damage attacks, but then my remaining attacks were all successful--including a 50-50 odds battle, Chariot vs. Chariot. I razed the city; it had little to recommend it beyond rice at this point in the game.



I did pillage a very nice amount of gold from it, though.

The last turn of the round was quite eventful. I finished researching the UB-activating tech:



And I also finished off Ragnar. Haithabu had only one Archer defending. My Flanking II Chariot withdrew from combat with the Archer, then a Combat II Chariot finished him off. I razed this city as well.

And that was, basically, that. Here's a look at my new city, Nidaros:



And here's a look at the map:



Yes, some barb cities are popping up, which could give my now-veteran stack of Chariots something to do. I have my Medic I, 7 XP Chariot, ready to be combined with a Great General to receive the Medic II, II, and Morale promotions and enable both the Heroic Epic and West Point at the same time (though I'm still several XPs from my first GG).

I was initially, as you can see, going to research Iron Working next, but I think instead I should go after Pottery for cottages, then Writing, and finally Alphabet. By then I should have my Great Spy to start stealing techs from Washington. At the same time, I think my next city should be over on the west coast to claim that copper. I don't know if we'll see the Vultures in action against America, but I can definitely throw some at the barb cities. Meanwhile, I start to REX, leveraged by Ziggurats.

I have chosen the Oracle as the next build in the capital, but I'm concerned about GP points. Now that there's only me and Washington, getting a Great Prophet rather than a Great Spy would be bad news. Perhaps I should build it in Nidaros instead, since it has some forests that will need to be chopped anyway to irrigate the tiles around that lake.

Sisiutil said:

I have chosen the Oracle as the next build in the capital, but I'm concerned about GP points. Now that there's only me and Washington, getting a Great Prophet rather than a Great Spy would be bad news. Perhaps I should build it in Nidaros instead, since it has some forests that will need to be chopped anyway to irrigate the tiles around that lake.

Click to expand...

yay we got revenge on ragnar!

i do see your point that spy points would be preferable to prophets atm. great spies can be awesome. i stole MilTrad and Rifling from Zara in my shadow of your original map, giving me a big boost on the powergraph while i spent my beakers on culture techs *giggle*. fun fun!

but ... that marble up by new york is blue already. so there may be a bit of time pressure. i don't know whether he has masonry, and i don't know if he's the "ooooh shiny wonder, must build it" type, so i have no idea whether it's really a concern. my only impression in the games i've met him is that he expands way too fast for my liking, and he doesn't use his favorite civic which annoys the crap out of me!

edit: i definitely agree with Validator's comment below about building a zig in nidaros now, not a barracks.

I agree with Validator, Stone and lots of Forest for a Pyramids attempt is a good option, you can use your Second Capital (former Viking Capital) to produce settlers and defenders. Mids = Representation + Cottages + UB = Rex lol, you might even change your mind and go Specialist Economy if you get the Pyramids.

I say ignore IW until you start settling the Jungle or steal it from Washington which ever comes first and aim for Alphabet for Spies and Currency for extra Commerce for Rexing.

If you're pursuing a EE (Espionage Economy) you may want to beeline to Engineering for the cheap castles with protective and ultimately Optics to find the other AIs.

You need to research Fishing to be able to work Nidaros' seafood.

How long do you intend to wait before you expand into the jungle? You'll need IW before you do, but it doesn't seem that you're in any hurry. Washington isn't likely to wait for you.

A Ziggurat in Uruk is probably a better build at this point so you can assign a spy specialist (or 2) to speed the great spy. I'm not sure what your chances are of getting Oracle this late.

1 NW of the cows SW of the capital looks like a good spot for either a commerce center or GP farm. It'll suffer a lot of unhealthiness, though.

I don't like the odds of getting The Oracle this late, and money is not the greatest concern after killing Ragnar.
I say go for the Pyramids and get IW after fishing so you can plan your expansion optimally. If you start building some ziggurats, that should compensate for the lack of cottages for now.

Edit: fishing of course, not sailing, although I'm curious to see more of the landmasses to the east. But all in due time I suppose

We should learn not just from Sis's excellent play, but from the AI's poor decisions. The reason he was so poorly defended was that he built the Moai Statues in his capital. Lesson: be careful with the Wonders. I think you should still do the Oracle, but skip the Pyramids. Tech towards Alphabet so you can make spies who, with the help of your Great Spy, will pick George clean.

Pyramids is what's gonna save ya. The dash to monarchy is too much, your cities have no happiness, the need something. Run 100% science though Fishing->Pottery->Writing on the way to Calender while chopping the 'mids with every thing you got. I erased this drawn out path to monarchy when i realized my plan led to Rep anyway so make the dash to writing instead while rexing your economy to a crash in setting up a full blown SE.

Destroy all the barb cities and put up something like this



Iron wil wreck it I'm sure and plenty of adjustments could still be made but either way those barb cities aren't really doing it for me and i think they gotta go, but that's just cash for Calender/Alphabet/Currency/CoL, and whatever else you can't pick off the cherry tree with the great spy. But the mids is a must, otherwise you have to crash to monarchy.

With teh timely addition of nidaros, he can ue that as his settler/worker producing city instead of his capital. However, if you want to keep the GP pools clean (I like to do this with an espionage city), start the oracle in nidaros and a zig in your cap and run a spy specialist there. you can also build the pyramids there while using your other cities to swarm settlers/archers/workers/chariots. nidaros looks like a great early production city with 2 GL hills, 1 P hill, and a cow. thats 13/turn? chop the oracle there and then have it work through the pyramids. you MAY want to leave soem forests though incase there will be some health problems, but that doesnt matter as much as getting these two. what are you planning on popping with oracle?

I wouldn't really bother with health in Nidaros (by the time it'll grow enough You'll propable have compass from Your buddy Washington, also with stone it's easy to build HG for more health), however high yield of food there helps a lot in production of settlers/workers... I'll say Oracle in Nidaros with chops and then workers/settlers, mids in Your capitol, any needed army in Eridu (barracks there).

A bit too early for courthouses, I usually build them when maintenance is around 4-5 in city.

Ragnar faced his ragnarak and lost.

Amazingly, this game also always a calendar slingshot from Oracle. You would need writing, fishing, sailing and maths. The scientists from the library would give us a a great scientist to bulb maths before the Oracle is finished.

Is there any possibility that Washington can be rushed?

I would go for pyramids, the etra hapiness is huge, I don't like the chances for Oracle with no marble.

The other option is to skip wonders all together and go for REX & zigurats, there is plenty of land to be grabed.

Why race the rice city? It is a realy nice cottage city it helps your economy, it doesn't cost you...

One wonder at that time, I would say.
Don´t go for both of them. Settlers need to be built.

What percentage of PNB will go into spying points ?
and when do you start putting them ?
they are going to be more valuable for tech stealing since the AI won´t trade.
Or do you think that those from the Great spy and ziggurats are going to be enough ?