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Civ4 - Fall from Heaven (Public) Development forum for Civ4 Fall from Heaven modpack.

View Poll Results: Which unit do you tihnk should be added to FfH?
Blood Hawk 39 15.35%
Divided Soul 50 19.69%
Ghost Pirate 5 1.97%
Mana Freak 20 7.87%
Mime 36 14.17%
The Restless 24 9.45%
Trickster 21 8.27%
Wild Mage 24 9.45%
Will'o'wisp 35 13.78%
Voters: 254. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Dec 02, 2007, 07:59 PM   #1
Kael
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Design a Unit 3 contest (public poll)

Vote for your favorite entry. Voting remains open until December 9th.

Blood Hawk
by the fish
(replaces Raven, uses slightly reskinned Hawk (darker))

as Hawk, but can also:
A) intercept other fliers (%50 chance)
B) strafe (harry) stacks for minor amounts of damage at range

The idea is that Svartalfar recon can use birds of prey to weaken enemies at range, and close for the kill. The intercepting feature also allows them to take down enemy hawks trying to scout their territory.

To balance this, it'd probably need to cost a bit more (+%50?). Also, all units on the archery line should be able to defend against strafing in a similar manner to SAM infantry, if this is at all feasible to add.

Ideally this'd be some sort of drake/drakeling, but of course I'm limited by #10.
Divided Soul
by Verdian
Sidar
Stats are the same as Hunter, except it loses the ability to carry cargo, it cannot build camps, and it's movement drops to 1. It gains the "Severed Soul" spell.

The unit can summon a permanent 0/1 "Severed Soul" with a movement of 2. This unit is always invisible. The Divided Soul can, at will, be summoned to the Severed Soul. This destroys the Severed Soul. Another one can be summoned, but a Divided Soul can only create one at a time.

The main purpose of this unit would be the ability to be in two places at once. This could help the mysteriousness of the Sidar, by having units appear out of seemingly nowhere. Upgrading this to an assassin would be especially nice.

The Severed Soul would have the skin of a Life Spark, and the Divided Soul would look like a normal Hunter (or whatever unit it replaced).
Ghost Pirate
by khanjackal
UU for Sidar
Naval Unit
Undead Unit

100 hammers.
5 Strength.
4 Movement.

Invisible with Hidden nationality.

This unit replaces the Pirate for the Sidar. It has the same requirements, and in all respects functions as a pirate, save for a slightly higher strength, and invisibility. The downside is that as an undead unit, it is vulnerable to undead damaging effects.

"Those are the rules... the GHOST PIRATE rules."
Mana Freak
by Arqane
Balseraphs
4 strength
1 movement

Requires: Knowledge of the Ether, Mage Academy, Freak Show

Upgrades from Freak

Starts with:
<Random Magic> Affinity: +1
<Random Magic> Affinity: -1
Mutated

The stakes have been raised once more for the Balseraphs. Their normal circus freaks have been infused with pure blasts of mana. Using the already mutated freaks, there's no telling how these infusions will effect each freak.

An upgrade of the freak, but still a staple melee warrior for the Balseraphs. As the game progresses and more mana is gained, the effects will be even more severely random.

edit note: The <Random Magic> trait could be set to a dynamic counter like the Armageddon Counter. So every time the AC changes, there's a new +1/-1 for each freak. One turn it's a beastly 10 strength monster, the next it's a piddly 1 strength (AC) mod (rand) = whatever mana type for more crazy randomness.
Mime
by Black Whole
Balseraph unique unit
Melee unit
90
4
1
Mind affinity: 1
Can use bronze, iron, mithril weapons
Starts with: Mime
Requires: Hall of Mirrors, Alteration, Drama

The mime promotion marks the unit as a mime and has the following effect:
Everytime the mime defeats an enemy, he gets every bonus and malus the last defeated enemy had (e.g. if the mime defeats an archer, he gets the +50% city defense, +25% hills defense and the first strike).
If this isn't possible, he gains all promotions of the enemy. After the next fight all promotions(except for mime) get lost and he gains the new promotions of his enemy.
The Restless
by it-ogo
Sidar UU

0/0 Strength
1 Movement

Unit can not be built. Arises whenever Sidar living non-immortal unit is defeated. Ignores terrain movement cost. Can explore rival territory. Water walking. Can pass unpassable terrain. Completely invisable to everyone but owner. Can share tile with enemy units. Can be sacrificed to increase the population in Sidar city.

Model: Djinn
Trickster
by Sureshot
(Arcane Unit Type)
Available for Svartalfar, possibly also Balseraph
Available with Drama
Requires Theatre
Upgrades to Assassin

4/3 (3/3 base but with Sinister promotion upping to 4/3)
2 movement
1 first strike
60 cost

Promotions:
Sinister, Channelling 1

An arcane unit with a recon feel. Gains XP over time as an arcane unit. Can learn level 1 spells, but has no hope of learning higher level spells. Instead advances as an assassin and later a shadow. Based on Arcane Trickster class from DnD, a mix of rogue and mage.

For Graphics, just a single Svartalfar Swordsmen with a reskin, or something more appropriate.
Wild Mage
by Randolph
Civ: Balseraphs
Requires: Sorcery
Cost: upgraded from L6 adept
Str: 4 (or the same as mage)
Free promotion as Mage
(and otherwise the same as Mage)

Special:
1. Every round there is a 50% chance the wild mage will (temporarily) loses the ability to cast one of her spells (randomly determined), and gains the ability to cast one randomly determined spell (of any mana type, level, and sphere (sorcery, summoning, divine)). Abilities return to normal the next round.

2. Whenever the Wild Mage casts a spell there is a 5% chance that a randomly determined spell will be cast in its place

(you could be just one of those, but I like both effects, so that's my submission)
Will'o'wisp
by Cadaveres
Recon unit
90 Hammers
0 (cannot attack)
3 (can pass through ANY terrain, including mountains and oceans)
Technology: Deception
National Unit, only 3 of them allowed at a time.
Invisible
Can detect invisible units in nearby tiles
Can undertake espionage missions
Promotions: Sentry, Dimensional I (Escape), Mind I (Charm)
Confusion: Units in the same tile than a Will-o'-the-wisp get: -30% strength if the tile is ocean, hell, forest or jungle, -20% if the tile is not any of the previous but there is no improvement nor city on it and -10% strength on improved or city tiles (resembling that their confusion power is greater in dark areas)
Model: Can use fireball model (changing the colors to bluish and increasing alpha channel/transparency)

Description:
"Wanderers of unknown paths, the Will-o'-the-wisps are mysterious even among the Sidar. Those who say that they have seen one will tell that a Will-o'-the-wisp resembles a faint flickering blue flame, but they banish so fast that nobody can really know their real aspect. They are like that dream you do not remember when you wake up, like that object you think you are forgetting but you don't know what it is, like that feeling you have on your back when you think that somebody is staring at you. Masters of distraction and deception, they take advantage of dusk, night and darkness to confuse travelers and peasants by resembling candles and leading them through dangerous paths, but even in light they can be mischievous"

Strategy:
The idea is that a will-o'-the-wisp is a powered spy. The confusion ability and the charm person spell can really help in combat, while the ability to pass any terrain plus the escape spell give them great versatility as recon units. Furthermore, they can undertake espionage missions, as normal spies.

Last edited by Kael; Dec 02, 2007 at 08:21 PM.
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Old Dec 02, 2007, 08:15 PM   #2
MagisterCultuum
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Are you sure the Divided Soul is possible? I don't see how, unless it were a national unit (or even world unit) with a limit of 1. I'm considering voting for it (but even if it works, its still not quite at the top of my short list), but I can't bring myself to pick something that I don't think can be implemented. Of course, if you can devise a means to tie summons directly to their summoner then you should. It would have many other useful applications beyond making this unit possible. I would definately want a divided soul to be able to transport only to his severed soul (it might also be nice if his ability automatically kicked in when the unit would otherwise die, like how Immortal works, but to the unit instead of the Capital city). I guess a targeted spell could work if you lifted this restriction, but I don't think the AI could handle it. (Kael has gotten rid of targeted spells entirely because of this. I'm not even sure targeted spells are possible in the BtS implementation.)

I'll hold off on voting for a while. I was actually pretty evenly divided between about half of the choices, and disappointed overall. Why didn't the Sand Lion Rider or Opium Smuggler or the Protean make it through? And how did the Ghost Pirate make the cut, when the Sidar abhor the undead?

Last edited by MagisterCultuum; Dec 03, 2007 at 01:39 AM.
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Old Dec 02, 2007, 08:45 PM   #3
Kael
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The picks in the contest are either someone on the teams favorite, or where picked as secondary picks by multiple team members. My top few didn't always make it through, and a few were eliminated because I didn't think they were possible (though I tried to be as open as possible if a team member picked it, even if it has to be modified a bit).

If it was "Kaels favorites" it would be a different list. But thats just one guys opinion, so if someone else on the team picked it and its possible it included. I certainly dont have any special talent for picking good ideas so Im anxious to see if the community votes along with my preferences or someone elses.

One thing I noticed was that the team members had very different preferences in the unit and wonder contests, I don't know what that says about us except that we tend to look for different things from submissions. We were pretty similiar in our picks for the events poll though.
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Old Dec 02, 2007, 11:50 PM   #4
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Just out of curiosity, why was the Opium Dealer rejected? Was there any specific reason or was it just because of popular vote?

Last edited by Jono; Dec 02, 2007 at 11:55 PM.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 12:38 AM   #5
[NWO]_Valis
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My favourites aren't in, I am confused. I too cant think of how could the divided should be done, more over how the AI could handle it. Also, while the whole idea of the restless is very nice, the last sentence disqualifies it.

It will be blood raven or Will'o'wisp but I have to think it thru. Hear other opinions.

It is ok to discus them here, right?
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 12:56 AM   #6
Verdian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum View Post
Are you sure the Divided Soul is possible? I don't see how, unless it were a national unit (or even world unit) with a limit of 1. I'm considering voting for it, but I can't bring myself to pick something that I don't think can be implemented. (Of course, if you can devise a means to tie summons directly to their summoner then you should. It would have many other useful applications beyond making this unit possible.)
I am surprised and elated that the Divided Soul made the poll. I had the same doubts as Magister when I came up with the unit. I am not familiar with coding in Civ4, but it seemed like it would not work. It made the cut, though, so I guess it is possible. Or it will be implemented as a unique unit? I seem to recall the contest was for non-unique units, so...

Regardless, thanks to any and all that vote for it.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 01:17 AM   #7
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Interesting, I read the Divided soul wrong the first time through, I thought you could delete the offshoot and make a new one at the unit, not summon the unit to the offshoot. That is actually pretty sweet.


As for how to do it, I would imagine it could work as a targeted, unlimited range spell or a relocate+damage capability. So any of your Divided Souls could Relocate to any of the existing Severed Souls, and kill that Severed Soul in the process. Might not force you to use YOUR severed soul, but it is still only 1 Divided Soul who can move at a time to that spot.

And, IMO: Don't vote against something you like because you do not think it can be implemented. If it is on the list, Kael believes he can implement it, or something dang close to the original intent.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 03:37 AM   #8
Janusi
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I am a little disappointed that there are no Malakim units to choose from. Weren't there any good suggestions for them?
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 03:56 AM   #9
MagisterCultuum
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Sure there were good Malakim suggestions, including one of my favorites: the Sand Lion Rider. I don't see how this could have peen passed up while the Sidar get an undead unit, when one of the few tings we know for sure is that the Sidar despise necromancy and undeath.



Now for the critiques of the options I can choose (still haven't decided yet which to choose):

The blood hawk really shouldn't be a UU, but an upgraded form of the birds for everyone (with slightly different flavor units, like hawks/raven/parrots have). It seems like a waste to implement archers as interceptors for only one minor UU, but would be fine if everyone could have attack birds. Birds tend to become worthless later in the game without any upgrades (except for grafting into flesh golems, where they are amazing and probably overpowered. But don't take the ability away, I'm just getting used to this exploit. ) (Why did we have ot limit the contest to those 4 civs? There were plenty of sugestions tat would be better for the barbs, r for everyone.)

I still don't think the Divided Soul is possible. I like the ability if it is, but am not quite sure if it is appropriate for them. In general, I think the Sidar need not a UU but a powerful racial promotion (perhaps making the unit invisible from more than one tile away from a rival's unit, and granting withdrawal and/or first strike chances).

Ghost Pirate, as I've said many times, should have been instantly vetoed because of the Sidar hatred towards the undead. However, it could be good as an Infernal UU or an OO Hero.

The mana freak is nice, but I would rather have is abilities just be rare possible mutation promotions for normal freaks, probably with various tech/mana requirements.

The Mime is fine too.

The restless doesn't fit the Sidar theme well, and again I still think they need a a racial promotion instead of a UU.

Trickster isn't bad.

The Wild Mage just sounds like a normal mage with a high chance to miscast. I would rather just make choas and maybe also mind mana make miscasts more likely.

The Will'o'wisp's abilities are interesting, but I'm not sold yet. Without more info on how Shadow's espionage system will work I don't think I can make a judgment on this. And again, I would prefer a Shade racial promotion to a UU.

Last edited by MagisterCultuum; Dec 06, 2007 at 11:15 AM.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 04:21 AM   #10
[NWO]_Valis
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My guess is that someone found out were Kael lives and has took his family hostage.

[almost non of my favourites got in and I am too surprised of the many that {for me alone off course} just do not fit or are unbalanced]
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 05:30 AM   #11
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I was a Divided Soul between, uhh, Divided Soul and Wild Mage, but the amount of people saying the DS couldn't be done made me vote for it. Folks, if the team has included the DS into the poll, then they think it can be done somehow. Just vote on what you think is cool, and ignore whether or not you think it could be implemented.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 05:36 AM   #12
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Exactly what Xuenay said. If it couldn't be implemented it was bumped.

You get to vote on what you like, not what can be coded and created since that variable was already addressed.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 05:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuenay View Post
I was a Divided Soul between, uhh, Divided Soul and Wild Mage, but the amount of people saying the DS couldn't be done made me vote for it. Folks, if the team has included the DS into the poll, then they think it can be done somehow. Just vote on what you think is cool, and ignore whether or not you think it could be implemented.
It doesn't seem complicated at all really.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 05:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
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It doesn't seem complicated at all really.
Yeah, well the only complicated thing seems to be how the game will know what summon belongs to what unit.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 05:58 AM   #15
Keilden
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The Restless is almost like my Shade, that it spawns when Sidar units die. So I vote on it.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 06:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Fox View Post
Yeah, well the only complicated thing seems to be how the game will know what summon belongs to what unit.
Myself, I'd just add a unit ID to the unit class. I'd default the unit ID to an invalid value (-1?), then replace it with the ID of the appropriate unit on the split. One could make this relationship bi-directional, to allow easy teleportation at the end, and an easy check for the existence of the Severed Soul.

I think that the major problem for Divided Soul would be to get the AI to use it effectively. On the other hand, having an invisible scout (which the AI could presumably use just fine) could be useful in and of itself.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 06:37 AM   #17
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Blood Hawk - Aircraft in FFH. I never liked atrcraft war in civ, but perfect as a way to make one nation more specific. All the mechanisms are already programmed.

Divided Soul - Sudden assassins are impressive and flavourful. But it is a toy only for human player I think. Shadow is much better in many reasons. As for completely invisible beholder... My variant is what I like more.

Ghost Pirate - Not much really new and I do not like this area (sea piracy) for Sidar specific unit.

Mana Freak - More insanity for Balseraph. I do not think this will change gameplay. Just provide some noise.

Mime - very nice toy. A way to acquire foreign unit with unique abiliies. Like Mind control but without risk to lose archmage.

The Restless - This is my. The way to make Sidar gameplay more specific. Some influence on expansion strategy and tactics. Recycling system with draft. Plus eyes everywhere.

Trickster - Never liked Arcane Tricksters but this one is acceptable. May be a bit overpowered. Hope Svartalfar have no arcane leaders.

Wild Mage - This is really crazy! I like it as an idea! Makes imagination working. But checking changes each turn for Law 3 sourcery etc. would be boring...

Will'o'wisp - Do not like. Not worth efforts IMO.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 06:47 AM   #18
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again, my favourites arnt up there
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 07:06 AM   #19
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Restless

Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
The Restless - This is my. The way to make Sidar gameplay more specific. Some influence on expansion strategy and tactics. Recycling system with draft. Plus eyes everywhere.
My main concern about the Restless is the population increase. My thought is something like this:

Build a lot of Warriors or Scouts (Why? Minimum time to build). Send them to attack a city. On victory, they loose a city defender; on loss, you get an extra population in the number of turns it takes for the unit to get back to your target city.

Even if you can't get that unit to work directly, you could use it to feed a whip.

You could also save a bunch up, and move them along with each settler - for an instant happiness-cap city.
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Old Dec 03, 2007, 07:49 AM   #20
it-ogo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanaqui42 View Post
you get an extra population in the number of turns it takes for the unit to get back to your target city.
But remember that they move slowly and cost money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanaqui42 View Post
You could also save a bunch up, and move them along with each settler - for an instant happiness-cap city.
Yes, this makes Sidar stronger in expansion and more aggressive. And less dependent on food storing buildings. And better adjusted to draft and sacrifice population. That is what I call specificity. I do not think they will be overpowered but if it is so, we can balance them in other way. E.g. stop growth after, let us say, 5. I believe specificity worth efforts.
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