Monarch and optimization!

eXeel

Chieftain
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
79
I have Civilization IV and the newest patch, but no expansions. So no coorporations, etc.

I remember many months or years ago to visit this forum for help at getting from Difficulty 4 (the normal) to 5 (a little AI biased). I had to improve in areas such as founding and spreading religions (to earn more gold), NOT expanding rapidly (due to it being expensive. I was told and I could feel), using houses more etc.
Now I feel I’m locked into that difficulty and want to move on to the 6th grade, Monarch.

I used to play my games in normal mode, and I did a lot to expand and “claim” all the good spots before the AI did. That ended being ouchy expensive! I was told that a small handful of good cities was enough and better than too many bad ones (as that ruins economy, then research etc).

Lately I have begun playing the epic time frame, since I always felt each era pass by too fast to take advantage of the units in it. Marathon feels too long, a lot of “Enter” pressing. Be aware of this, when you comment with any advice or mindplay you might have to offer :)

Let me make some bullet points with each of my incertancies and questions:
1) Just in my last game, I started building a worker as the first thing, instead of barracks, another warrior, a settler or whatever. This was to make my town grow in size, before I stopped it’s growth, as I thought it would mean the worker would be built that much faster.
But it only changed from 23 to 18 turns or so, and in the long run, I guess I need the worker to improve the city’s surroundings.
So I think I’ll start with a worker from now on!

2) Religion founding, even if hinduism and buddhism gets taken by others first? Is that my primary goal, or is it possible to survive without? I sometimes find it hard to get, if I don’t have that tech I need to build them. Then I’m far behind already!

3) I won’t earn anything from founding religions, before I get a religious great people to build that thing in the birth town of that religion, true?

4) I don’t use the function to go into a city and assign the population to tasks or speciality (science, priests, taxmen or whatever they are). How important is this? And doesn’t it take away a population to farm the area around the city? Isn’t that a large sacrifice, or when is that a good option? I would like to learn how to speculate in this.
Neither do I touch what lands are farmed, I let the AI do that automatically, as I am afraid to forget it, if I focus on something special for a period of time. But is the AI very inefficient at this? Should I do more myself and what and why?

4A) The most specialised of my cities, are some that gets the different national or world wonders which increase culture, research, gold points or whatever. I pick those with maximum base value of each and then the percentage boost goes to that town, since that seems most benificial.
But what I do not have, is a town for military always. Though when I get the wonder that produces military 100% faster, I do let that town make more units than the others, naturally. But that I only get later in the game.
Should I focus more on getting a town for workers / settlers, for military, for gold farming, for general culture boost, for…? And if yes, then how do I do this? What are the optimal conditions for each town (surrounded by what grass, how many hills, water or?).

5) Number of cities is important, but what number? I don’t expand if I have around zero or negative income, as I know I will earn less with a new city and that hurts my research. Is this faulty? Have I forgotten about the strengths of a money farm, or a normal town with enough huts? When can a new town support its own cost, so I don’t have to worry about it having a negative effect?
The extra research points and the chance to use it for wonders, building military or whatever could surely be useful, and I find myself falling behind in research (unless I focus completely on that) and rating, even in the 5th difficulty. Is this normal or due to only 3-4 or 5 towns or something else?

6) In the topic “Me, you and Monarch” at the Strategi and Tips Civ IV forum, Beengalas seems to have expanded quite fast and at page two of that topic, his research rate is at 30%, luxury at 0% and tax at 70%, I presume. Wouw. Do you think that is a temporary risk or is that “normal”? I try to keep it at 70-90% whenever possible, not below. Then I feel something is wrong.
Is this because I am not building that many towns, so 80% of 3 cities’ research output is less than 30% of 5-7 cities, or whatever he has?

7) Wonders. I feel it very, very hard to make this without losing in the long run. It took my capital 108 turns for the Pyramids and I lost the race for it with 8 turns left. Gave me 600 gp but a lot of time wasted with just building that.
What are my priorities here? I need one or two cities going first and/or 2 workers per city before any wonders, or? I know you can ultra-rush them, but for a normal game where I don’t want to sacrifice everything to get it, when is the right time to get my first?

8) Workers are important, I’ve learned lately. Getting too few, too late seemed to be a rule of thumb to me. What buildorder is normal or a good idea, when you have to think of a balance between the following:
Workers, Settlers, Defense, Exploring, Buildings (More culture, research, better exp for new units), Wonders etc? And how is the buildorder of new cities, the first couple you build?

9) Beligning when talking about techs, what is that? Is there more than one “path” to some techs, or is there always the same way and the same techs required to get it? Heard mention of this in another topic, got curious.

10) Slavery and other civics. I never “whip” things done, as that is cruel and also makes the population mad at me (true?). Maybe I should? If they get mad, how long will it last?

I know this is a big pile of questions, but I had a boring lecture and I've rediscovered my passion for Civ IV, after some time away :) I'd love to further optimize my play and be able to compete at Monarch succesfully.
 
1. For me worker worker settler and bronze working for chopping forest to speed up the production. unless Imperialist leader then a settler straight off. If you have 2-3 food in city BFC workboats work well.

2. I normally go for conf by building oracle after I have researched writing. You can always capture a holy city later.

3. Holy city helps. By adopting a religion its providing +1 happiness to each city with the said religion. The city it is found in will also get cultural benefits per turn.

4. Erm you dont have great people farms?? Isnt that like a major thing? If a city has 4-5 food resources I will assign as many specialists to a city as I can. Great people are key at times.

4a military town = high production town
Commerce towns are those with lots of grass land for cottages.
Great people farms = High surplus food or lots of wonders. Most people have one of these.

5. You need to expand your cities. I normally build about 4 by 2000bc and expand as my economy allows. Court houses, currency, markets and banks will reduce your costs. Build lots of cottages and as they grow they will pay for your future expansion. Building holy shrines for religions will also help here. You could also settle great priests in your cities to help your expansion.

6. Beenglass game is fine. he has used the great lighthouse to expand fast. he has built 12 or so coastal cities and has a decent tech lead over his rival AI. Although he is somewhat lacking on the military front. 30% science is fine. You should count the number of science beakers per turn not the science rate.

7. If its take you over a hundred turns to build a wonder why are you building it. You need to use chopping of forest more. Hook up stone as this will double the production of this wonder. Wonders should be built in high production cities or cities where you plan to chop lots of forest.

8. Untill about 2000bc my main builds are workers, warriors, settlers and axe when they arrive to fend off barbs. Even after that date I will still be building settlers and workers just mixing buildings/ wonders in more. There is no set rule just play to your own strategy.

9. Beelining. - Its going for a certain tech. Like Belining to philosophy. I will only develop the tech needed to develop philosophy. I might also use great scientists to help develop techs on the way. This is why many people set up a city with a library and 2 scientists early on.

10. yes whipping is a good idea. The Ai will do this. In a city with much excess food whipping can work wonders. It is just a game remember. No one will die from your game play actions. :)

I would post a game up to 1000bc and get some proper advice.
 
1) Worker, Worker, Settler? No defense, not more units to scout than the warrior you start with? And I play vanilla Civ IV, haven't heard of Imperallist leader? :)
Not sure what BFC stand for.

4) Actually I thought it meant Gold Point farm or something :S I have neither, no. I can feel that is important, so I will try to focus more on that. Wonders give more Great People chances, and/or what else boosts that chance? :)

And is a city with enough food at 8 not as good as a city at 4, limited by making it a specialist city?

And what does specialists do, except for the boost they give to production, money or what it says? Does it also give great people chance for each specialist, or is there a specialist that itself gives great people points?

Great, what would be a good ratio when I have 3, 5 and 10 cities? Like at 3 cities, one production town and two normal. At 5, two production, 1 GP town, two normal or...? Just to get my an image of how you think it is, then I can modify it to fit with my own.
Will continue later, need to plug out the laptop :)
 
1. The Ai wont attack you that early on unless you declare war. You may want a warrior to escort your settler. If i have a scout I am able to fogbust for barbarians anyway. If you feel safer with more warriors you can always grow city to size 2 while you build a warrior.

In terms of a great people farm. I will grow city to the happiness cap then assign specialists. If i am after a great scientist to speed up philosphy I will use slavery to whip a library. Then grow city and assign 2 scientists using the excess food.

See my GP farm below. If you hover the mouse over specialist it tells you what they do. With the Pyramids (Mids) and the representation civic each specialist will add 3 extra science beakers a turn.

I think you have to judge a city when you build it. You want a mix and match of commerce/ production and one main GP farm. Cottages help the economy to grow but you need military too. Some cities will never have a perfect fit in terms of land.

More hills with production. More grassland = cottages. Lots of surplus food could suit your GP farm.
 
Note the science in the GP farm above is nearly 200 beakers per turn!! Also the city is generating 135 great people points per turn. Most of the scientists produced I added to my city. The rest were used to help research techs toward liberalism.

This was done without a philosophical leader.
 
4) Happy cap is when the town has, say, 6/6 happy faces and sad faces, true? Or when do I know when the cap is reached?

And thanks for the further comments on that point, I'll try to make a game where I focus a lot on this part, just to get used to it and make myself comfortable with it :)

5) Expand when your economy allows? Does that mean you don't do it if you are at 0 income (at 90% science) or how far are you willing to move down the slider?
What is a good idea of how much minus a new town will do? I know it is hard to say, when distance and working tiles means a lot. But is there some kind of measuring pole here (is that an expression?:D)

6) Coastal cities seems important in Civ 4. I always think that it means a lot less production! And food is only good when I get a certain tech, I believe? Or do I have it all wrong?

I don't understand how he can have 12 cities and still have a tech lead at Monarch difficulty! Or maybe that just explains why I lose with my 3-5 cities, hehe.

7) Thanks for that note!

8) Interesting, why no archers? As the best defense is offense, or?

10) I need to practise whipping too! Surely my gf will love that :D No, it sounds like two major things I've skipped. Whipping and GP farms / Specialization.

Will get back when I have further experiences!
Others may comment too, that would be great if any additions to Gumbolt :)
 
I have Civilization IV and the newest patch, but no expansions. So no coorporations, etc.

Vanilla. Well, into the Wayback machine we go.

So I think I’ll start with a worker from now on!

It's a good foundation to start from. It won't always be the right answer, but it will usually lead to a good position.

Religion founding, even if hinduism and buddhism gets taken by others first? Is that my primary goal, or is it possible to survive without?

Not a primary goal - sometimes a useful tool. There's not a lot of benefit to founding a religion vs having the religion discovered right next door.


I don’t use the function to go into a city and assign the population to tasks or speciality (science, priests, taxmen or whatever they are). How important is this?

Pretty important. Specialists are a major contributor to the creation of great people, which open up a lot of strategic ideas. In addition, specialists are part of the trick to specializing a city.

Exploring this element of the game would be a wise investment.

But what I do not have, is a town for military always. Though when I get the wonder that produces military 100% faster, I do let that town make more units than the others, naturally. But that I only get later in the game.
Should I focus more on getting a town for workers / settlers, for military, for gold farming, for general culture boost, for…? And if yes, then how do I do this? What are the optimal conditions for each town (surrounded by what grass, how many hills, water or?).

Check the War Academy for articles on City specialization. If that's not enough, search through the Strategy Articles.

In the topic “Me, you and Monarch” at the Strategi and Tips Civ IV forum, Beengalas seems to have expanded quite fast and at page two of that topic, his research rate is at 30%, luxury at 0% and tax at 70%, I presume. Wouw. Do you think that is a temporary risk or is that “normal”? I try to keep it at 70-90% whenever possible, not below. Then I feel something is wrong.
Is this because I am not building that many towns, so 80% of 3 cities’ research output is less than 30% of 5-7 cities, or whatever he has?

It's fairly normal. What you are seeing is mostly investment - sacrificing economic efficiency now for a larger economic base later, and some ancillary benefits.

Striving to keep the research slider pinned at 100% is a good way to suffocate.


What are my priorities here? I need one or two cities going first and/or 2 workers per city before any wonders, or? I know you can ultra-rush them, but for a normal game where I don’t want to sacrifice everything to get it, when is the right time to get my first?

Real answer is that it varies with the strategic goals of any given game. Wonder racing right out of the gate can work, if you know what you are doing. Ignoring all of the wonders can work, if you know what you are doing.

Useful questions include:
Was I going to research that tech anyway?
Do I have the resource to improve production speed?
Do I want that kind of great person?
Is the wonder going to be more valuable than the equivalent production invested elsewhere?


Workers are important, I’ve learned lately. Getting too few, too late seemed to be a rule of thumb to me. What buildorder is normal or a good idea, when you have to think of a balance between the following:
Workers, Settlers, Defense, Exploring, Buildings (More culture, research, better exp for new units), Wonders etc? And how is the buildorder of new cities, the first couple you build?

Most buildings aren't as important as they seem to be. Granary is the big exception, you'll almost always want that one as quickly as you can afford it. I'd guess that you'll need a settler, a worker, a garrison unit, and a roving defender per city. Ideally, you'll outsource those military units to a specialized city, and train the settlers and workers in cities that can grow quickly, so that your supporting cities can get jumping on their own goodies.

Slavery and other civics. I never “whip” things done, as that is cruel and also makes the population mad at me (true?). Maybe I should? If they get mad, how long will it last?

Big Topic. Do your reading.
 
Stop playing at normal speed. Play at epic.
 
Ironic i missed the part in bold. Doh. Most players on here now play beyond the sword expansion. Well its a great deal more enhanced than the original.

The great lighthouse gives 2 free trade route in all coastal cities. Thats how beenglass has expanded. He also had 2-3 gold resources and other resources that provided a huge boost to his economy. Small bonuses soon add up to big things.

As an example on my current game. I have around 7 cities around 300bc. My science slider is hovering around 40-60% mark. I too have built the great light house wonder. I would happily let my science slider drop to 20-30% if there is long term gain. For example capturing 3-4 Ai cities during a war. If your science is producing 50-70+ science beakers by 1ad you will be doing well.

You have to remember as cottages grow and you start to build court houses, markets, banks your economy will recover.
 
6) In the topic “Me, you and Monarch” at the Strategi and Tips Civ IV forum, Beengalas seems to have expanded quite fast and at page two of that topic, his research rate is at 30%, luxury at 0% and tax at 70%, I presume. Wouw. Do you think that is a temporary risk or is that “normal”? I try to keep it at 70-90% whenever possible, not below. Then I feel something is wrong.
Is this because I am not building that many towns, so 80% of 3 cities’ research output is less than 30% of 5-7 cities, or whatever he has?


If you try to keep at 70-90%, you actually hinder your own expansion. I go down to 0%-20% for a large part of the early game when I expand rapidly. The key is using all the land you've grabbed for an economic rebound, and making wise use of great people to lightbulb technologies. By the time it's late game, where my economy is quite strong, then 70-100% is the norm, unless I'm doing a modern era war.
 
Why worry about slider percentages at all...? The only time they ever matter is when you have a huge science bonus from Libraries + Universities + Observatories + Laboratories + Academies + Oxford in your cities, which you don't in the early game. Watch your beaker/turn rate instead.
 
Top Bottom