Korean descendants conquered China

[altaicmania]

The history of origin of Jin and Qing dynasty was finally broadcasted in KBS.

The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo.

Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234.

But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912.

Watch Korean History Special by KBS:

Following is the documentary broadcased in KBS.

Short version with English subtitle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Hm-SRD9CQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMUUZ15Vuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPf3haNr4wg

Full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjxaDIxcyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_IP2kkFEXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyE_enR5UMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2YEaYj4lE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2YqsolBm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfTDO8tjEDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF_lWtM0QY

reference:
Hanpu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
함보 - Korean wikipedia
역사스페셜 - [특별기획] 만주대탐사 2부작 - 2부 금나라를 세운 아골타, 신라의 후예였다！ (in Korean)
http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Ko...ion+to+Manchus
watch the episode in KBS (in Korean)
The Full version of documentary by KBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLF0KQ0yhA

[xchen08]

Ugh, pseudo-nationalist wankery applied to an era when there was no such thing.

I'll just make one comment. If you are a Korean interested in Korea-wanking historical revisionism, the assorted achievements of the Jurchens are not your best bet. The eagerness and ease of their sinicization says nothing good about the strength or attractiveness of the hypothetical Korean culture they must have had before they embraced a new identity as Chinese.

[altaicmania]

After Silla destroyed Goguryeo and expanded territory further north, some people of Silla moved to north which was old Goguryeo's area. After the collapse of Silla, some people of Silla escaped to Balhae. But, Balhae was collaped at Liao invasion again. They unified Jurchen tribes establishing Jin dynasty.

The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla.

The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60
金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3])

Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla

Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, ... He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人)
女真阿骨打稱帝，姓王名做旻，本新羅人，號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2]
Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (... He is originally a person of Silla).
女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(...本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19)

There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo)

The originator of Wonan family (Jin's royal family) is a person of Silla
完顏之始祖指蒲者，新羅人 (in 大宋遗民)
The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese)
The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo.
金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese)

Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty

People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin.
金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty)
The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person
其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty)

Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo.
My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo).
我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo)

When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla . It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded.

The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese) [10 ]

Manchu Qing dynasty(1636-1912) is the successor of Jurchen's Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin's royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅).

The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] )
The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)
新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1])

Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings' surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name.
"本自新羅來姓完顔氏 新羅王金姓 相傳數十世則金之自新羅來 無疑建國之名 "(in The Origin of Manchu [1])

Also, Qing emperors' surname was "愛新覺羅". Interestingly, it can be read as "love Silla (愛 新羅) and remember Silla (覺 新羅)". The surname "愛新覺羅" means gold(金) clan in Manchu pronunciation (Aisin Gioro). The surname Kim(金) of Silla kings means gold too. After the end of Qing dynasty, the descendents of royal family changed their surname to 金.

The Manchu royal family Aishin Giro (愛新覺羅) clan were people who lived in Odoli Castle which is in current Hoeryong (회령), North Hamgyong in North Korea where was part of Joseon dynasty since 14th century. They were a vassal tribe to Joseon dynasty, and they treated Joseon as a mother country. Nurhachi called Joseon dynasty "mother country" in the letter to Joseon showing willingness to help Joseon at the invasion of Japan in 16th century. The foundation story of Qing dynasty explains the birth place of Nurhachi, who was the founder of Qing, as the east of Baekdu Mountains which is current North Korea.

"There was a lake called Bulhūri at the foot of Bukūri Mountain, located to the east of the Baekdu Mountains. When three angels bathed in that lake, a magpie left a fruit on the youngest angel Fekulen's clothes. She ate the fruit and became pregnant. She mothered Bukūri Yongšon, the founder of Aisin Gioro. He was later welcomed by the people as the Beile. He settled at Odoli Castle on the Omohoi Plain and became the founder of the Manchu State."

Qing government announced the definition of Manchu and prohibited the term 'Jurchen' referring to them. The half of Manchu tribes were Korean tribes by the Qing's definition of Manchu.

Definition of Manchu from "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" [1]
Manchu Tribe 1: Suksin (肅愼), Buyeo(夫余, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 2: Yilou (挹娄, Ainu), Samhan(三韩, Korean), and Mulgil (勿吉)
Manchu Tribe 3: Baekje(百济, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 4: Silla(新羅, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 5: Malgal(靺鞨)
Manchu Tribe 6: Balhae(渤海, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 7: Wanan (完颜, Korean royal family and Jurchens), and GeonJu (建州)


Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus
According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5 ].

Y-chromosome analysis. Manchu are closest to Korean. KOR(Korean), MAN(Manchu), KCN(Korean Chinese), NHN(North Chinese), JPN(Japanese). (From Katoh's paper 2005)
In this study, both Korean and Korean Chinese (ethnic Koreans living in China) are genetically closest to Manchus. Interestingly Manchus are genetically closer to Koreans than Mongols. it is consistent with the Qing's definition of Manchu tribes in which Korean tribes are majority. It is believed that the population of ethnic Koreans in Goguryeo and Balhae dynasty contributed to main Manchu population in Jin dynasty.

Northern Han Chinese were not as close to Manchu as the Koreans and Japanese are, but not as far away than the other ethnics. Current north China was traditional Altaic people's homeland, and Altaic people conquered and colonized China many times. Through history, Chinese were mixed with them . Khitan and Jurchen people governed Northern China during 10~12th century (Liao and Jin dynasty). Mongol and Manchu people governed whole China during 13~14th and 17~20th century (Yuan and Qing dynasty). There are many non-Han Chinese dynasties in Chinese history. Other studies show that genetic distance between Southern Han Chinese and Manchu is big.

[1] Qing governement, "The origin of Manchu(滿洲源流考)", 1777, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%BB...B5%81%E8%80%83
[2] 大宋宣和遺事, http://open-lit.com/showlit.php?gbid=347&cid=1
[3] the history of Jin(金史), http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%87...%B2/%E5%8D%B71
[4] Sin Chaeho, "Joseon Sanggosa", 1931, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Sanggosa
[5] Toru Katoh, et. al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis", **Gene**, Volume 346, 14 February 2005, Pages 63-70. web link
[6] Wontack Hong, "How Did the Rulers of the Jin and Qing Dynasties Trace Their Ancestors? The Manchu Origins", EAST ASIAN HISTORY: A KOREAN PERSPECTIVE Vol. 1. No. 2. 2005. 1. 1. http://www.upkorea.net/news/photo/4908-2-4504.pdf
[7] "Hanpu", wikipedia.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanpu
[8] Juha Janhunen, "Tracing Bear totemism in Northeast Asia", http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publ...1-janhunen.pdf
[9] "The founder of Jin dynasty, Agolta was a descendent of Silla", History special, KBS, 2009,http://www.kbs.co.kr/1tv/sisa/histor...745_30885.html
[10] 洪皓(Song Chinese), "The king of Jurchens is a person of Silla (女真酋長乃新羅)"', in '松漠記聞', 1129, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/松漠紀聞
[11] http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Ko...ion+to+Manchus

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So does the King Arther levitate Chinese heelstones too?

[Verbose]

So, are we to assume Manchuria should now be part of "Greater Korea", according to at least some Koreans?

[ParkCungHee]

Originally Posted by Verbose

So, are we to assume Manchuria should now be part of "Greater Korea", according to at least some Koreans?

Pfft. They already claimed that thanks to the Goguryeo!

In other news, it's recently been discovered that the Belgians conquered 3/4s of the planet in the 19th century.

[JEELEN]

Originally Posted by altaicmania

Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus
According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5 ].

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Manchus are descendants of Koreans - only that they are genetically closest related. Following this relation it is not surprising that many names should appear both in Manchuria and Korea; again, this hardly proves that Manchurians are descendants form Koreans - by your reasoning the opposite might even be true.

At any rate, I hardly consider this in accordance with historical facts; in general, one should be very careful not to conclude to much from linguistic coincidence to ethnic relations - languages change, as do the pople that speak them.

[ParkCungHee]

by your reasoning the opposite might even be true.

Koreans? Descended from Tungusic peoples in the area of the Armur River/Lake Baikhal Region? Nonsense, pure nonsense!

[Lone Wolf]

B-but I thought that Genghis Khan was a Russian (or Etruscan, which is the same thing) ruler of the great empire of Russia-Mongolia-Megalion???

[ParkCungHee]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

B-but I thought that Genghis Khan was a Russian (or Etruscan, which is the same thing) ruler of the great empire of Russia-Mongolia-Megalion???

No, but his Reincarnation was!

[Lord Baal]

In related news, African descendants created every empire in human history.

You see, I can be foolish too.

Oh, and weren't the first few kingdoms in Korea created by, ahem, Chinese petty kings? Why, yes, I believe they were.

[ParkCungHee]

Originally Posted by Lord Baal

In related news, African descendants created every empire in human history.

You see, I can be foolish too.

Oh, and weren't the first few kingdoms in Korea created by, ahem, Chinese petty kings? Why, yes, I believe they were.

...Actually I'm not so sure about that. From what I understand they were amalgamations of pre-existing clan/tribal groups.

[Lord Baal]

Originally Posted by ParkCungHee

...Actually I'm not so sure about that. From what I understand they were amalgamations of pre-existing clan/tribal groups.

A look in my books reveals that we're both somewhat correct. The early Chinese settlements had a strong influence, but weren't really kingdoms.

The Documented history of Korea begins in the 12th cent. B.C., when a Chinese scolar, Ki-tze (Kija), founded a colony at Pyongyang. After 100 B.C. the Chinese colony of Lolang, established near Pyongyang, exerted a strong cultural influence on the Korean tribes settled in the peninsula. The kingdom of Koguryo, the first native Korean state, arose in the north near the Yalu River in the 1st cent. A.D., and by the 4th cent. it had conquered Lolang.

[aronnax]

Korean Descendants might have conquered China but it was Zheng He who all the Koreans descend from!

[Dachs]

Zheng He: the man who transcended being a eunuch to father the Korean Nation.

[altaicmania]

Originally Posted by JEELEN

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Manchus are descendants of Koreans - only that they are genetically closest related. Following this relation it is not surprising that many names should appear both in Manchuria and Korea; again, this hardly proves that Manchurians are descendants form Koreans - by your reasoning the opposite might even be true.

At any rate, I hardly consider this in accordance with historical facts; in general, one should be very careful not to conclude to much from linguistic coincidence to ethnic relations - languages change, as do the pople that speak them.

The point is not that Manchus are genetically descendants of Koreans, but the royal family and central regime of Manchu Jin and Qing dynasty are descendants of Korean. The genetic study is to see the validity of the historic record showing Balhae and Silla people were mixed to Jurchens.

This history about the origin of Manchu royal family is written in the official history books (The origin of Manchu(滿洲源流考), the history of Jin(金史), etc.) . So, it should be considered historic fact.

[BananaLee]

I always considered the Manchu and Jurchens quite separate from the Koreans culturally. But we all know it was Zheng He that conquered the world.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by xchen08

Ugh, pseudo-nationalist wankery applied to an era when there was no such thing.

I'd replace "pseudo-" with "thinly-disguised"... but you're still on the money.

[Eretz Yisrael]

Originally Posted by altaicmania

After Silla destroyed Goguryeo and expanded territory further north, some people of Silla moved to north which was old Goguryeo's area. After the collapse of Silla, some people of Silla escaped to Balhae. But, Balhae was collaped at Liao invasion again. They unified Jurchen tribes establishing Jin dynasty.

The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla.

The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60
金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3])

Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla

Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, ... He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人)
女真阿骨打稱帝，姓王名做旻，本新羅人，號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2]
Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (... He is originally a person of Silla).
女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(...本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19)

There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo)

The originator of Wonan family (Jin's royal family) is a person of Silla
完顏之始祖指蒲者，新羅人 (in 大宋遗民)
The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese)
The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo.
金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese)

Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty

People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin.
金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty)
The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person
其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty)

Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo.
My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo).
我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo)

When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla . It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded.

The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese) [10 ]

Manchu Qing dynasty(1636-1912) is the successor of Jurchen's Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin's royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅).

The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] )
The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)
新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1])

Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings' surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name.
"本自新羅來姓完顔氏 新羅王金姓 相傳數十世則金之自新羅來 無疑建國之名 "(in The Origin of Manchu [1])................[10] 洪皓(Song Chinese), "The king of Jurchens is a person of Silla (女真酋長乃新羅)"', in '松漠記聞', 1129, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/松漠紀聞
[11] http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Ko...ion+to+Manchus

Hi, altaicmania, always good to see another fellow Korean around. Whereas I understand what you are trying show Korea in a different light, it really doesnt change the fact that after the Manchus took over China, it didnt stop the Qing from considering Joseon as a 'lesser brother' in diplomatic relations; in other words, we never conquered them. I understand that when I say such things to another Koreans, they would usually gasp in horror and exclaim that had never found such an unpatriotic person in their lives ( I actually heard this from a Korean history professor because I rejected his claims about Korea stretching all the way to the Ural Mountains); but the fact that is that if we want to be patriotic, we should stop escaping from army conscription and learn from the Israelis - they are a nation who fight for their own country, whereas we expand our ego by bluffing about the nation's history.
Yes, Korean blood was probably a factor in the Aisin Goro line, but viewing history like that is the same as suggesting that Turkey has the right to rule over all the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, Mongolia has the right to rule over Eurasia because they had conquered it before, and that Atilla the Hun was actually Chinese and that the Chinese nation should incoporate Hungary, Russia should include all the Slavic peoples in the Balkans, etc. In fact, the European royal families during the last two centuries were all connected to each other as a big family, but that didnt stop Bulgaria declaring war at Greece,Britain declaring war at Germany, etc.

If eoc sees this thread, he will jump on this thread and attack it....

[vesley1987]

Originally Posted by Eretz Yisrael

Hi, altaicmania, always good to see another fellow Korean around. Whereas I understand what you are trying show Korea in a different light, it really doesnt change the fact that after the Manchus took over China, it didnt stop the Qing from considering Joseon as a 'lesser brother' in diplomatic relations; in other words, we never conquered them. I understand that when I say such things to another Koreans, they would usually gasp in horror and exclaim that had never found such an unpatriotic person in their lives ( I actually heard this from a Korean history professor because I rejected his claims about Korea stretching all the way to the Ural Mountains); but the fact that is that if we want to be patriotic, we should stop escaping from army conscription and learn from the Israelis - they are a nation who fight for their own country, whereas we expand our ego by bluffing about the nation's history.
Yes, Korean blood was probably a factor in the Aisin Goro line, but viewing history like that is the same as suggesting that Turkey has the right to rule over all the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, Mongolia has the right to rule over Eurasia because they had conquered it before, and that Atilla the Hun was actually Chinese and that the Chinese nation should incoporate Hungary, Russia should include all the Slavic peoples in the Balkans, etc. In fact, the European royal families during the last two centuries were all connected to each other as a big family, but that didnt stop Bulgaria declaring war at Greece,Britain declaring war at Germany, etc.

If eoc sees this thread, he will jump on this thread and attack it....

Very well written. I think even eoc will have to admit that he agree with you.
To be fair, this kind of weird-patriotic-history-study thing is also prevalent in China, only difference (if any) being that we often have more to bluffing about.