Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

Personally, I don't see how that kinda bonus could be supported lorewise.
 
Hmmm if we will follow this trait maybe we should add little diplomation bonus for same culture type OR penatly for contats within different cultures ?. For example Sylvians are undeads, but a central continent culture so they will have penatly in contacts even with Khermi or Lahmia. What do you think about it ?
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This is inherent in the religion design.
Unlike most mods, nearly every civ is set into a single religion, which also represents their regional culture.

So we have:

Salvation = Empire, Brettonnia, Kislev, Tilea, Estalia
Destruction = Orks, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Ogres
Spirituality = Araby, Ind, Cathay, Nippon
Eternal Life = Sylvania, Khemri, Lahmia
Chaos = Kurgan/Norsca/Hung, Chaos dwarf, Beastmen
Elven gods = High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf
Ancestor gods = dwarf
Old Ones = Amazon, Lizardmen
Agnostic = Skaven (? or chaos?)

You have a diplomacy bonus for members of your same faith, and a penalty for others.

Also, there are alignment diplomacy modifiers (lawful, neutral, chaotic), and a few factions might have some specific hatreds built in (amazon vs lizardmen, high elf vs dark elf, etc.)
 
in addition to what ahri said certain civs will have specific modifiers with other civs (such as tomb kings having large negative modifiers with both lhamia and sylvania, and with araby having another large modifyer with tomb kings. but sylvania and lhamia wont necesserily have a large modifyer against the tomb kings.)
 
Just wanted to point out that Skaven worship the Horned Rat... which Chaos god even though he is not one of the big 4 so they could possibly fit into the chaos religion... or get their own ;)
 
in addition to what ahri said certain civs will have specific modifiers with other civs (such as tomb kings having large negative modifiers with both lhamia and sylvania, and with araby having another large modifyer with tomb kings. but sylvania and lhamia wont necesserily have a large modifyer against the tomb kings.)
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Ach and thats a answer thats suits me. Because some civs have a different religion from their cultural position. Sylvania have different culture from a bit oriental Lahmia and Tomb kings. So for example they have same religion and +6 modifier, but theres also a little penatly for culture difference, like -2 or what ?

But if you add special modifiers then it's OK :crazyeye:.
 
We're thinking about it. There are also gameplay/balance considerations, however.

We can't segment up all the religions too much, or some factions become diplomatic lepers and are too weak.

I suspect would be generally opposed to Khemri having extra diplomacy penalties with Sylvania and Lahmia, who are already the only factions in the game where they would have any chance of having decent diplomatic relations.
Their leader AI is isolationist anyway, adding extra penalties on top of that could end up making them very very weak.
 
I agree, there's not really a need to make lots more hardcoded modifiers except maybe a few like Druchii and Dwarves vs Elves. There are already large permanent alignment and religion effects for everyone; we need to avoid making everything too heavily hardcoded or there would be too little human choice and too great effects from starting position and what other civs were generated. Keep in mind that with religions always the same, in a standard 6 to 8 player game there will generally be from zero to one other civs with your same religion. This could be frustrating if you end up with no diplomatic options (your religion penalty just being a general penalty against all civs), that's also why trying to make the AI generate competition to build a religion-specific shrine through hardcoding didn't work as planned in the earlier version.
 
So do I understand you correctly in that each race starts with an religion, and there will be no religious Holy cities?

Now keep on crunching... Xmas is coming up and I need something to do ;)
 
Each faction can adopt only 1 religion defined by their culture, and you gain holy city by building special shrine.
 
Each faction can adopt only 1 religion defined by their culture, and you gain holy city by building special shrine
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Right. There is still only 1 shrine per religion, so you still have to race your co-religionists for the shrine.
And some factions start with their religion (elves, greenskins, old ones), while others are later to get it (human factions), and get a free missionary of the appropriate religion when they research the right tech (like in FFH).
 
I suspect would be generally opposed to Khemri having extra diplomacy penalties with Sylvania and Lahmia, who are already the only factions in the game where they would have any chance of having decent diplomatic relations.
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I agree, there's not really a need to make lots more hardcoded modifiers except maybe a few like Druchii and Dwarves vs Elves.
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i strongly disagree. Khemri HATES all vampires. probably as much as highelves hate druchii. afterall, the vampire's forefather (nagash) killed their entire civilization and cursed them for eternity. they can hold a grudge almost as well as the dwarves.

I would definately put in at least *some* negative modifyer (i dont mind if it is a small modifyer) and then we can add in events between civs to add more flavor etc.
but i DO think its necessery for khemri to be 'diplomatic leppers' (love that phrase btw ahri :lol: ) anyway. it suits their lore. they just want to reconquor their old empire. conquor first talk later. also, who would try dipomacy with cursed undead?

that all said, i think any modifiers we DO have should be relatively minor. we can easilly add more flavor between civs/leaders with events with different effects.
 
but i DO think its necessery for khemri to be 'diplomatic leppers' (love that phrase btw ahri ) anyway. it suits their lore.
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Ok, if you feel its important then we'll do it, and then we will have to balance around that.
Which isn't impossible, but its tricky.

I've been working on doing that for Tleilaxu for Dune Wars, it will be even harder for Khemri. But then, Khemri with all its mechanics is going to be a giant PITA to try to balance anyway.

that all said, i think any modifiers we DO have should be relatively minor
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Ok.
 
I have been wondering this for a while:

Since every "race" in the Warhammer world has effectively its own religion, why have religions in game at all? Its not as though the Kurgan are going to convert to worshiping the Lady of the Lake.

It could be a good idea to have each race start with the appropriate religion and have no Holy city as such (not sure if that is easy to code though). Add to that tone down the spread of religion to FAR less than BTS standard, inc missionary chance to spread. Then there could be Religious themed events, possibly leading to crusades even.
 
Since every "race" in the Warhammer world has effectively its own religion, why have religions in game at all?
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1. Because not every race has its own religion. Many races worship the same chaos gods, for example.
2. Because it is a convenient way of including similar cultures and religion modifiers, through the existing religion mechanics. The religion and culture of Kislev and the Empire is very similar; hence, the will be more inclined to work with each other than they would with some other alien civilization, like Cathay. Why not use religion to represent this?
3. Because its a obvious and fun way of including the gods in the game.
4. Because its a convenient way to standardize some mechanics and units, like missionary units or similar.
5. Because it still allows for some variation across factions; for example, each Salvation faction will still have its own unique Priest unit and Temple. Most of the chaos factions will share the same chaos demons and temples to the 4 chaos gods. etc.
6. Because it still allows for a single shrine, so there is a strategic choice to try to race for the shrine or pursue growth or military instead. So there is still some competition between co-religionists.
7. Because it allows for all kinds of other things (civics, events, etc.) that use state religion or other religion events (eg Heresy event, chaos cults event, etc.)

What would we gain from *not* using religion?
 
I 3rd this. Now, where's my damn Tequila?
 
Question: Are the modders going to make a certain new UI interface for every civ? Just wondering.

It be nice if you also add in the event called Geheimnisnacht (Night of Secrets), for chaos it's similar to a religious event for the slaanish to sacrifice children. I heard of this from the first chapter of Felix and Gotrek: The First Omnibus.
 
Ideas for improving old world human factions. Particularly focusing on improving their "ancient" counterparts to feel more like roman-era Europe, and adding more flavorful names.

First, merge the religious UUs into the faction designs.

Chaos:
Spoiler :
• Unit Name: Demon Prince of Chaos.
• Requirements: Corruption of Chaos state religion. Chaos incursion tech (or End Times tech). World unit; only one may exist.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Beast.
Race: demon
• Statistics:
Strength 12+6 unholy, 2 movement.
• Unique items:
None
• Other Bonuses:
Cause fear
Terror.
Aura of flame (as for Meshabbar of Dis from FFH).
Raider (auto-pillages any enemy tile he moves into)
Sentry (+1 visibility).
• Art: Hyborem.
Hammer cost: 320

• Unit Name: Chaos furies (National limit 5, separate from 10 for the 4 temple demons)
• Requirements: Temple of chaos (any), Corruption of Chaos state religion
• Background:
• Unit Class: beast
Race: demon
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, strength 4, range 5.
• Other Bonuses:
Counts as fighter aircraft unit. Can relocate between cities. Can perform recon run. Can perform strafing run. Cannot perform bombing run. Can be intercepted (all flying units should gain the interception ability). Can perform intercept mission.
• Placeholder Art: ? Fighter aircraft would look silly but make their purpose clear.
Hammer cost: 90

• Unit Name: Bloodletter of Khorne
• Requirements: Temple of Khorne, Corruption of Chaos state religion, Bloodlust of Khorne tech.
• Background: "Bloodletters are Lesser Daemons, known variously as the Footsoldiers of Khorne, the Warriors of Blood, the Teeth of Death or the Horned Ones. Carrying blades quenched in the blood of a generation of fallen warriors, they march behind twisted banners that flutter in no earthly breeze accompanied by the chanting of the names of those slain in battle. They are bestial creatures, with snarling fanged mouths, whose skin drips constantly with blood, their matted manes shaped into spines with dried gore. Like the raging god from which they are born, Bloodletters have no desire but to shed blood on the field of battle. They are clad in fragments of armour, which si sometimes melded to their skin, and wield massive swords." (From Mark of Chaos).
• Unit Class: beast
Race: demon.
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, no metal weapons, strength 9, explodes on death (like Sheaim pyre zombies)
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with Mark of Khorne.
• Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288829
Hammer cost: 140

• Unit Name: Plaguebearers of Nurgle
• Requirements: Temple of Nurgle, Corruption of Chaos state religion, Gifts of the Plagued One tech.
• Background: "Plaguebearers have distended, cyclopean faces that leer from atop famine-wasted frames and corpulent bellies, split from within by gushing organs. Sometimes known as the Tallymen of Plagues, they count the diseases of the world, numbering the poxes and contagions in sonorous chants that burble and echo from fanhed mouths. Dripping with unnatural excretions, the Maggotkin feel no pain, for they are every lingering death, every moment of delerium and fevered starvation." (From Mark of Chaos).
• Unit Class: beast
Race: demon
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, no metal weapons, strength 6+2 death.
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with Mark of Nurgle.
Starts with Plagued.
• Art: Drowned or Stygian Guard from FFH.
Hammer cost: 140

• Unit Name: Daemonettes of Slaanesh
• Requirements: Temple of Slaanesh, Slaanesh's Pleasures tech, Corruption of Chaos state religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: beast
Race: demon
• Statistics:
o 2 movement, no metal weapons, strength 7.
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with Mark of Slaanesh.
Can cast Charm Person.
• Art: Succubus from FFH.
Hammer cost: 140

• Unit Name: Screamers of Tzeentch
• Requirements: Temple of Tzeentch, Lore of Change tech, Corruption of Chaos state religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: beast
Race: demon
• Statistics: Strength 7, 2 moves, no metal weapons. Flying.
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with Mark of Tzeentch.
Can cast "scream" spell. Does 10% damage (to a maximum of 15%) to all units in one adjacent stack, unless the unit is immune to fear.
Hammer cost: 140


Salvation:
Spoiler :

Empire
• Unit Name: Warrior Priest of Sigmar (Salvation priest UU), national limit 5.
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Temple of Sigmar building, Priesthood tech.
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 3 strength, 3 holy strength. Cannot use metal weapons.
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with magic resistance promotion. Starts with medic 1.
Can cast Cure Disease.
Immune to fear.
Starts with "priest of sigmar" promotion (allows them to cast Sigmar spells).
Can sacrifice self to cast inquisition.
Hammer cost: 80

• Unit Name: Witch Hunter (replaces crusader) National limit 3.
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Fanaticism tech.
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 3 strength, 3 holy strength. Cannot use metal weapons.
• Other Bonuses:
o Starts with Inquisition 2 promotion. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Starts with demon-slaying promotion (+20% strength vs demons)
Immune to fear. Immune to terror.
+25% vs disciple units. +25% vs arcane units. Starts with Marksmen promotion.
Hammer cost: 150.

Bretonnia
Questing knight.
As current.

• Unit Name: Grail Knight
• Requirements: Bretonnian civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Upgrade from a level 4 Questing Knight only. Requires Tournaments tech, requires Fanaticism tech. Requires Chapel of the Grail buiding.
• Background:
As current, but also has immune to fear.

• Unit Name: Battle Pilgrims (Salvation priest UU) (Limit 5)
• Requirements: Bretonnian civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Priesthood tech. Requires Chapel of the Grail.
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength+1holy, 1-2 first strikes, 10% withdrawl chance. No metal weapons.
o Can sacrifice self to case inquisition.
o If it captures a city, automatically adds salvation religion to the city (doesn’t inquisition any existing religion, however).
o Starts with spirit guide promotion.
Hammer cost: 90.


Kislev
• Unit Name: Priest of Ursun (Salvation priest UU, limit 5)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Priesthood tech, Temple of Ursun.
• Unit Class: Disciple
o 1 movement, 5 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o, Can cast ‘Cure Disease’, Can cast the Lore of Beasts spell that does bear stuff (+1 move, +2 strength, wears off?).
Immune to fear.
Hammer cost 80.

• Unit Name: Berserker of Ursun (crusader UU, limit 3)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion. Requires fanaticism, requires Temple of Ursun.
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 2 movement, 7+2holy strength. Cannot use metal weapons.
• Other Bonuses:
o Starts with Blitz promotion
o +20% city attack strength.
Immune to fear. Immune to terror.
Hammer cost: 140.


Tilea
• Unit Name: Priest of Verena (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Tilea civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Requires Priesthood tech, Requires Temple of Mercopio
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o May cast ‘Cure Disease’, o Can cast Verena’s Favor. Creates a Mercantile Chapterhouse building in the city. Adds +1 happy, +1trade route, +25% trade route yield, +10% commerce. Building removed if caster leaves the city (like inspiration, wall of stone, etc. in FFH).
Medic 1

• Unit Name: Magistrate of Verena (crusader UU, national limit 3)
• Requirements: Tilea civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 6+1holy strength, no metal weapons.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can cast "unyielding order"; like FFH spell, removes civil unrest and prevents unhappiness.
Medic 1.
Hammer cost 150.


Estalia
• Unit Name: Priest of Myrmidia (Salvation priest UU, limit 5)
• Requirements: Estalia civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Requires Priesthood tech, Requires Temple of Myrmidia
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
o 1 movement, 4+1holy strength. Cannot use metal weapons.
• Other Bonuses:
Starts with Medic 1, medic 2 promotions.
o May cast ‘Cure Disease’, ‘Judgement’, (adds a Tribunal building to the city which provides +1happy, -50% War weariness and +2 influence.)
Hammer cost: 60 hammers.

• Unit Name: Estalian Inquisitor (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Estalia civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Unit Class: Disciple
o 1 movement, 5 strength +2 Holy.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can cast inquisition.
Starts with Bright Magic 1. (No channeling).
Immune to fear. Immune to terror.
Hammer cost: 150.

Knights of the Blazing sun (replaces grail knights)
Requires fanaticism tech. Requires tournaments tech. Requires Salvation religion.
Strength 6/4+1holy+1fire. Can use all metal weapons.
Mounted unit class.
2 moves.
Requires horses resource.


And we need to work on religious units for other religions more.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3

And then tweak the existing units a little:

Empire
Can't find much on ancient german tribes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_...nfantry_versus_Gallic_and_the_Germanic_tribes
Maybe slightly cheaper spearman/swordsman warband units, to help field an ancient horde?

Or we maybe we could fine something in Merovingian era military. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Merovingian_military

How about "Levy swordsmen" and "levy spearmen" units that are swordsmen and spearman warband units with no upkeep cost and national limit 10?

So its not superior military strength, but it helps preserve the Empire player economy to push them faster into their later era stuff?
Fits in with ancient feudal levies.

Estalia
Sacred Band (replaces spearman warband)
Same as spearman warband, except +1 holy strength, -1 strength, +20% city defense.

Instead of "Estalian hunters" have "Cabosian slingers", who are a "skirmisher" type recon unit with an extra withdraw chance.
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs beasts. +30% withdraw chance. -20% city attack. Hammer cost: 50.
(from Los Cabos, like earth Balearic slingers)

Change name "Estalian Jinetes" to just "Jinetes".
Change "Estalian knights" to "Magrittan knights".

Tilea
Tilean Legion (replaces Swordsmen warband)
Same as swordsmen warband, but +1 first strike chance. (Infantry throw pilums)

Equites (replaces ancient cavalry)
Same as ancient cavalry, but +10% vs melee units, no gold upkeep cost, and national limit 5. (limited patrician cavalry who provide their own superior equipment)

Brettonnia
Peasant spearmen, swordsmen and bowmen build with food as well as hammers.
Mounted yeomen are a lancer replacement but with an extra +10% grassland attack.

Thoughts?
 
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