Science questions not worth a thread I: I'm a moron! - Page 4

PeteAtoms · Jul 06, 2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eran of Arcadia

Other than chordates, are there any phyla with species that currently live in the ocean but whose ancestors were terrestrial? I would think there might be some arthropod examples of this, but are there?

EDIT: I should specify "fully aquatic", as in they don't spend any part of their life cycle on land.

Whales? Just throwing that out there, I should've googled "phyla" and "chordates" before I answered though...

Eran of Arcadia · Jul 06, 2010, 02:45 PM

Whales are chordates, so yeah . . .

ParadigmShifter · Jul 06, 2010, 04:01 PM

Sea snakes? (although wiki tells me one species can move on land)

Eran of Arcadia · Jul 06, 2010, 04:07 PM

Those are all vertebrates, though. Are there any, say, crab species that live their entire lives in the water but are thought to have had ancestors that lived on land?

ParadigmShifter · Jul 06, 2010, 05:16 PM

Oh I dunno! I'm a mathematician and computer programmer!

What about prawns? Did they live on land ever? (I have absolutely no idea

)

Cutlass · Jul 06, 2010, 05:27 PM

I've heard some poisonous beasties have venom that will kill a person instantly. Faster even than the venom can travel to vital organs. How does that work?

Cynovolans · Jul 06, 2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cutlass

I've heard some poisonous beasties have venom that will kill a person instantly. Faster even than the venom can travel to vital organs. How does that work?

Stings from a Box jellyfish could send people into shock and drown them before the venom reaches the heart and causes a cardiac arrest.

Cutlass · Jul 06, 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynovolans

Stings from a Box jellyfish could send people into shock and drown them before the venom reaches the heart and causes a cardiac arrest.

But my question is, how does it happen that quickly? If the poison does not actually reach the vital organs before the effect takes place, how does that happen?

Cynovolans · Jul 06, 2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cutlass

But my question is, how does it happen that quickly? If the poison does not actually reach the vital organs before the effect takes place, how does that happen?

A sting from a box jellyfish sends a lot of small darts(each with venom) into the body, and the darts can cause enough to pain to send a person into shock. If not that, then the burning sensation from the venom being released will. If you're lucky enough to survive that, then the venom will quickly travel to the heart and send you into a cardiac arrest.

PeteAtoms · Jul 07, 2010, 08:48 PM

I'm starting to think that panspermia is looking better and better in contrast to the idea that life on Earth is native to Earth.

If we believe that life spawned in early Earth, than the conditions had to be just right, right? So the Earth since than has been unsuitable for life to spawn from non-life, otherwise we would see examples of non-life turning into life at more than one point. UNLESS, it is that unlikely.

Please help me figure out where I'm going wrong or fill in the gaps of info that I'm missing.
(maybe my assumption that life only happened once is wrong to begin with?)

Leifmk · Jul 08, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Atoms

I'm starting to think that panspermia is looking better and better in contrast to the idea that life on Earth is native to Earth.

If we believe that life spawned in early Earth, than the conditions had to be just right, right? So the Earth since than has been unsuitable for life to spawn from non-life, otherwise we would see examples of non-life turning into life at more than one point.

Not necessarily; once life got properly started it presumably spread to every place that was suitable for early life quite rapidly, this changed conditions such that they were no longer suitable for abiogenesis (for instance, by the simple fact that all those complex organic doodads that could have some chance of combining into primitive life would rapidly get eaten by primitive life that was already there).

There may very well have been any number of false starts that fizzled out, or even possibly competing "first primitive life" types of thingies that may have existed during overlapping times, of which one of the types were more effective than the others and ate them all. More or less impossible for us to know.

Eran of Arcadia · Jul 08, 2010, 06:41 AM

And panspermia, like the First Cause argument, doesn't really solve anything so much as push the problem back a step.

PeteAtoms · Jul 08, 2010, 09:03 AM

I didn't mean to imply some sort of religious belief on my part is some kind of "magical" cause for life or the universe. I definitely see no reason to believe in a deity or creator, but I am not opposed to the concept of panspermia. It's much easier for me to come to grips with.

And I've more or less "calmed down" since my post (I was a little tipsy and the post came while watching some science channel tv show). A single occurrence of life being formed seems a lot less crazy to me now

It's like asking why didn't humans evolve independently in geographically/temporally isolated instances.

tl;dr: false alarm

Eran of Arcadia · Jul 08, 2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Atoms

I didn't mean to imply some sort of religious belief on my part is some kind of "magical" cause for life or the universe. I definitely see no reason to believe in a deity or creator, but I am not opposed to the concept of panspermia. It's much easier for me to come to grips with.

I know, it was an analogy. The fact remains that as far as I can see, saying that panspermia is easier to come to grips with or accept or whatever than abiogensis is similar to the First Cause argument, in that you are not changing the fundamental issue, just changing where/when it happens.

PeteAtoms · Jul 08, 2010, 09:45 AM

The issue I was having, was not "can life come from non-life" which would indeed be a problem that panspermia simply does not address, as you pointed out, neither does a creator, evolution or ID.

My issue was: "why hasn't life come from non-life more than once?" Which now seems to be like me asking why didn't humans evolve multiple times independently.

I was watching the show "The Wormhole" with Morgan Freeman, and the idea of "life as we don't know it," was brought up to maybe explain that life did evolve from non-life more than once, and we can't recognize these other "kinds" of life because they are so different from our own (non-carbon based or something).

Souron · Jul 08, 2010, 10:32 AM

We really don't know what the odds of life emerging were. It could have been very high. And we probably won't know until we create all the parts of life in a lab.

warpus · Jul 08, 2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Atoms

My issue was: "why hasn't life come from non-life more than once?" Which now seems to be like me asking why didn't humans evolve multiple times independently.

Because if it arose again, it would be too primitive to compete with the life that was already there.

madviking · Jul 08, 2010, 03:09 PM

Ch-ch-check this out.

//shameless self plug

ParadigmShifter · Jul 08, 2010, 03:14 PM

I prefer the cloud of alcohol that is 463 billion kilometres across myself.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...4/s1607840.htm

madviking · Jul 08, 2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmShifter

I prefer the cloud of alcohol that is 463 billion kilometres across myself.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...4/s1607840.htm

Except this kinda of alcohol (CH3OH) makes you blind.

Jul 06, 2010, 02:45 PM	#62
Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Saint Angel Posts: 21,268	Whales are chordates, so yeah . . . __________________ Member of the Union of People of Interesting Faiths - Ask me about Mormonism. I don't want to be Elfstar any more. I want to be Debbie. An Adventurer is Me!

Jul 06, 2010, 04:01 PM	#63
ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Liverpool, home of Everton FC Posts: 21,819	Sea snakes? (although wiki tells me one species can move on land) __________________ Most people think... Great God will come from the skies... Take away everything... And make everybody feel high (Bob Marley) Join the CFC Scrabble group! Discouraged in the gob

Jul 06, 2010, 04:07 PM	#64
Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Saint Angel Posts: 21,268	Those are all vertebrates, though. Are there any, say, crab species that live their entire lives in the water but are thought to have had ancestors that lived on land? __________________ Member of the Union of People of Interesting Faiths - Ask me about Mormonism. I don't want to be Elfstar any more. I want to be Debbie. An Adventurer is Me!

Jul 06, 2010, 05:16 PM	#65
ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Liverpool, home of Everton FC Posts: 21,819	Oh I dunno! I'm a mathematician and computer programmer! What about prawns? Did they live on land ever? (I have absolutely no idea ) __________________ Most people think... Great God will come from the skies... Take away everything... And make everybody feel high (Bob Marley) Join the CFC Scrabble group! Discouraged in the gob

Jul 06, 2010, 05:27 PM	#66
Cutlass Ideas are Like Stars Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: US of A Posts: 32,106 Images: 6	I've heard some poisonous beasties have venom that will kill a person instantly. Faster even than the venom can travel to vital organs. How does that work? __________________ Ideas Are Like Stars. Come visit us again! Learn the Basics of Money HERE More Money has been Lost Because of Four Words than at the Point of a Gun. Those words are "This Time is Different." Taking from the poor and giving to the rich is Why Nations Fail In American we call that Reaganomics.

Jul 07, 2010, 08:48 PM	#70
PeteAtoms FormulaRandom Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Land of Ooo Posts: 3,719	I'm starting to think that panspermia is looking better and better in contrast to the idea that life on Earth is native to Earth. If we believe that life spawned in early Earth, than the conditions had to be just right, right? So the Earth since than has been unsuitable for life to spawn from non-life, otherwise we would see examples of non-life turning into life at more than one point. UNLESS, it is that unlikely. Please help me figure out where I'm going wrong or fill in the gaps of info that I'm missing. (maybe my assumption that life only happened once is wrong to begin with?) __________________ "This cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our arms collectively, but, if sweetness can win, and it can, then I'll still be here tomorrow to high-five you yesterday my friend. Peace." - Old Tart Toter

Jul 08, 2010, 06:41 AM	#72
Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Saint Angel Posts: 21,268	And panspermia, like the First Cause argument, doesn't really solve anything so much as push the problem back a step. __________________ Member of the Union of People of Interesting Faiths - Ask me about Mormonism. I don't want to be Elfstar any more. I want to be Debbie. An Adventurer is Me!

Jul 08, 2010, 09:03 AM	#73
PeteAtoms FormulaRandom Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Land of Ooo Posts: 3,719	I didn't mean to imply some sort of religious belief on my part is some kind of "magical" cause for life or the universe. I definitely see no reason to believe in a deity or creator, but I am not opposed to the concept of panspermia. It's much easier for me to come to grips with. And I've more or less "calmed down" since my post (I was a little tipsy and the post came while watching some science channel tv show). A single occurrence of life being formed seems a lot less crazy to me now It's like asking why didn't humans evolve independently in geographically/temporally isolated instances. tl;dr: false alarm __________________ "This cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our arms collectively, but, if sweetness can win, and it can, then I'll still be here tomorrow to high-five you yesterday my friend. Peace." - Old Tart Toter

Jul 08, 2010, 09:45 AM	#75
PeteAtoms FormulaRandom Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Land of Ooo Posts: 3,719	The issue I was having, was not "can life come from non-life" which would indeed be a problem that panspermia simply does not address, as you pointed out, neither does a creator, evolution or ID. My issue was: "why hasn't life come from non-life more than once?" Which now seems to be like me asking why didn't humans evolve multiple times independently. I was watching the show "The Wormhole" with Morgan Freeman, and the idea of "life as we don't know it," was brought up to maybe explain that life did evolve from non-life more than once, and we can't recognize these other "kinds" of life because they are so different from our own (non-carbon based or something). __________________ "This cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our arms collectively, but, if sweetness can win, and it can, then I'll still be here tomorrow to high-five you yesterday my friend. Peace." - Old Tart Toter

Jul 08, 2010, 10:32 AM	#76
Souron The Dark Lord Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: (GMT-5) Posts: 5,514	We really don't know what the odds of life emerging were. It could have been very high. And we probably won't know until we create all the parts of life in a lab. __________________ One Civ to rule them all, . . One Civ to find them, One Civ to bring them all, . . And in the darkness bind them. If the above sig apears too large, download this font.

Jul 08, 2010, 03:09 PM	#78
madviking losing my edge Join Date: May 2005 Location: waking up naked on a beach in Ibiza Posts: 8,806 Images: 3	Ch-ch-check this out. //shameless self plug __________________ This marks the beginning of that very happy time when politics will recede into the background ... and engineers and agronomists will do most of the talking. - V. I. Lenin I feel sorry for people who don't drink; when they wake up in the morning that's as good as they're going to feel all day. - Frank Sinatra (+sheep, -dog) \| Join #fiftychat \| Island of the Three Legged Sicilians (18 May: Chapter 13) \| '12 NCAA Pick'em co-champion \| RIP Z.B. -- 10/11/92 - 4/18/12

Jul 08, 2010, 03:14 PM	#79
ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Liverpool, home of Everton FC Posts: 21,819	I prefer the cloud of alcohol that is 463 billion kilometres across myself. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...4/s1607840.htm __________________ Most people think... Great God will come from the skies... Take away everything... And make everybody feel high (Bob Marley) Join the CFC Scrabble group! Discouraged in the gob

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