Sirian's Infantry Variant - Succession Game Challenge

Sirian

Designer, Mohawk Games
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
3,654
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Mods are the most touted means of altering the mechanics of the game to achieve a different play balance, but they are not the only possibility. Voluntary restrictions or themes adopted by a player can reshape the game in any number of ways without touching the code at all. Succession games themselves are one such example.

One of the greatest weaknesses of the AI programming comes in its inability to deal with the blitzkrieg, either offensively, or defensively. Certainly one of the strongest elements of the military game is the retreat option on fast units, which lets you sustain a campaign with minimal losses up until the AI's get hold of mech infantry. So it occurred to me to wonder, how would the game play if I voluntarily shunned all the fast units? What would the game demand of me if I tried to wage a conquest scenerio under this restriction?

I've already got such a game roaring along in single player, and it seems viable, so I'm ready to host a succession game for this Variant. I call it the Infantry Variant, and here are the rules:

* Conquest is the only enabled victory condition (and of course, Score, if no victory is won by 2050).

* Chariots, Horsemen, Knights, Cavalry, Tanks, and Modern Armor are forbidden. They may not be built at any time for any reason.

* Mechanized Infantry are allowed, but MAY NOT ATTACK. They cannot even attack noncombatants, such as workers. They may only defend.

* Unique Units with two movement, which are equivalent to otherwise legal units (Jaguar Warriors and Impi) are legal, if the applicable civs are chosen, but may not attack, as per the rules for mech infantry. Other fast UU's are forbidden, including War Chariots, Iro Mounteds, Riders, Samurai, Elephants, Cossacks, and Panzers.

* Scouts are legal for Expansionist Civs. Explorers are legal for all civs.

* All ships, airplanes and missiles are legal.

With conquest required for victory, this means waging a combined arms war against the entire world, with only single-move units, plus ships and planes. It should be challenging.

For this succession game, I have chosen the following settings:

Difficulty: Monarch
Civ: English
Map Size: Standard
Land Mass: Small
Land Form: Archipelago
Opponents: French, Romans, Chinese, Indians, Babylonians
Climate: Arid, Temperate
Mountains: Standard

Turn Length: 10 turns
Time Alloted: 24 hrs to acknowledge, 48 to play.

Reloading: Disallowed. Plan accordingly. (The Autosave in particular may not be used, because of the trade bug it induces, so save the game every so often -- more often, in the latter stages -- in case of crash/power-outage/etc).

I'm looking for three, perhaps four, seasoned players who have played and met with success on Monarch, perhaps even Emperor difficulty, and are willing to agree to all the rules posted. I intend for us to start isolated, or at most with one neighbor, and not to be starting on a river, but rather something a little more impoverished. The reason for this is that I am looking for something more than an endless whipping despotic swordsman factory on a small pangaea, but rather a campaign that will require a more comprehensive effort and most likely to last into the modern era, if not longer.

Once I have accepted a team, I will play an initial number of turns to get us started, and to ensure that the scenerio matches my criteria, then post the saved game and the ten turn rotation will begin.

So... is anybody interested in this challenge? :)


- Sirian
 
Originally posted by Sirian
Reloading: Disallowed. Plan accordingly. (The Autosave in particular may not be used, because of the trade bug it induces, so save the game every so often -- more often, in the latter stages -- in case of crash/power-outage/etc).
- Sirian

This game is beyond my abilities, so I am not interested in playing. However, what is the autosave bug? I seen the phrase said before, but have no idea what it is.
 
just curious... have you gotten rid of the forbidden units, or just forbidden them to be built?

i take it AI is allowed to use such fast units, or am i wrong?
 
LK: a bug in the current patch allows the AI's to conduct trades amongst themselves on the player's turn. I have been told that it is activated only through restoration from autosave. Doesn't make much sense to me, but my observations in-game do fit with this explanation.

Ex: the AI's are unrestricted (except by victory conditions). The nature of these handicaps being voluntary and self-imposed on the part of players, as compared to scripted or hard-coded, is what defines "Variant" vs "Mod". Mods are great, but Variants require no expertise with the editor or other utilities, and no time or effort spent on coding rules, merely the discipline to adhere voluntarily to set a of handicaps. Players not wanting to play under the conditions I've outlined should seek a different succession game. This one sets a specific challenge.


- Sirian
 
It seems I can hold more than 2 succession games going at once (at least most of the time), so if you can get more interest for this, I'd be game. Though, no offense intended, I'd just as soon not directly inherit your turn in this game, you've made it almost too easy for me in RBD2...except for the first turn where you left me hanging out to dry through no real fault of your own (95/100 games the Egyptians would have held for a few hundred more years before attacking, but it all turned out well in the end).

And though it seems a bit unlikely, if you get the requisite number of players w/o including me, I'll bow out, I know the score on variants already, someone else should get to learn how much more rewarding it can be when you make the game harder for yourself. Besides, Monarch's not really my bag, I'm still more of a Regent player, at least until I get a few more victories under my belt.
 
Sounds great, I'm in! Scary, I was just thinking, Variantism is just what this game needs to provide a big boost to variation without mods, and can avoid patterns that we repeat over and over. :love: The one you suggested sounds particularly good. Others that came to mind were: no whipping, civ-affinity-wonders required (ie game lost if as Egyptians you don't build/control Pyramids), artillery required in battle vs city, a 'parity' game where it's a goal that NO country get eliminated, an espionage focus game, wealth game with a cash goal, 'control ALL iron', etc... (This also is close to what I was hoping for in a game as suggested in the rbd japan thread, neat)

Charis

(PS Let me know if this replaced, or is in addition to, your planned large map builder game)
 
Sounds interesting, count me in. I'd prefer a total of at least 5 players as I don't want it to be constantly my turn (as I'm finding in the Russian Succession Game I'm in.) I also like the short turn length.
 
Originally posted by Zed-F
Sounds interesting, count me in. I'd prefer a total of at least 5 players as I don't want it to be constantly my turn (as I'm finding in the Russian Succession Game I'm in.) I also like the short turn length.

You mean Lee and I move too fast?:lol:
 
Whew! Finally got some nibbles on this idea. :fish: Heard nothing but crickets the first couple of days this was posted. :sleep:

But now all the nibbles are coming from the pool of players who've set up camp here from Variant land in the Diablo II arena, so I'm wondering if the locals think we're nuts :crazyeyes or what? Are they being shy? :o Or are none genuinely interested in this sort of experiment? :frog:

OK Charis, you know I'll always play anything with you (or Jaffa, Cy, and Skan).

:beer:

Zed, sure. Carbon on standby. For some odd reason, I thought this game would fill up quickly and I'd meet a lot of new players. Guess that's what I get for coming to the dance in a radical outfit and suggesting the DJ lay off the "Love Me Tender" in favor of some "Razor's Edge" or something. [party]

OK, if any of you out there found this idea appealing but hesitated, now's the time to get bold and give it a shot. I'm going to close the signups by tomorrow and start things rolling.


- Sirian
 
Heh, Brian, it's not so much you move too fast, it's more that there aren't enough people playing. :)
 
The game is underway. Here is the roster and turn order:

Sirian
Zed
Charis
Carbon Copy

Still room for one more, if someone expresses interest by the end of the first round. Anyone who believes they are up to the challenge is welcome to apply.

I played 50 turns to start (and make sure we had a valid scenerio). 10 turns per player from here on out.

We started in a dry location, with massive herds of cattle all around us, but on a landlocked hill. So I had no choice but to move a square to the coastline, and I chose for once to build ON a cattle, something I almost never do. Why? Because there were just so many cattle available, I thought the growth curve boost of the extra food would be worth it.

So just like that, we start with 4 surplus food per turn and grow in just five turns. I took the farmer's gambit and ignored military for the time being. No water, though, to irrigate, so all I could do was mine and build roads.

Our scout checked out the area and I found good sites for another couple of cities. After that, the land got icy to the north, and hot and dry to the south. We have one good fertile patch, and a lot of barren real estate, on our hands.

:love: So stark. Perfect! :love:

I researched writing right out of the gate, at 40 turns, running minimal science. Built a second city and started it on warriors, built a third city and started it on a warrior, then barracks. Our scout found the lone goody hut on our continent in the far south, and from it we learned Ceremonial Burial (A stroke of important fortune for our culture, as otherwise it would have been forever before we had any temples going). I continued to build more settlers with London, saw the the north looked secure from barb camps popping up (I think -- it looks like there's not enough room for them, but if one does show, we have a troop up there. I sent other troops south, and just in time to stop the charging barbarians from attacking our fourth city. Rushed a temple as I got the chance, and we now have SOME culture going.

After writing, I researched Bronze Working at max science, both to be able to build spearmen and to have a wonder we could use to prebuild for the Lighthouse, which it now appears is our only chance to get off this rock before Navigation comes along. Built our fifth (and final really strong looking) city near the end of my reign, and set it up to rushbuild a temple soon. I attacked and disbanded the barb camp, and have a warrior and our scout standing guard in the region to prevent more camps from organizing. (This may be a mistake, as we could milk those camps for gold for a while, but that is risky).

I've started us on the path to Mapmaking, but our commerce is so low (and the cost of temples now draining the treasury), that it seems impossible that we could shave off enough turns from the research to matter, so I think we'll have to go for it at min science and wait the full 40 turns. If we have a Colossus being prebuilt AND properly timed (we can't do it with a Palace, don't have Masonry) we can most likely be sure to get it.

Here is a look at our continent and my thoughts on city layout.

White Dot has the most potential, as with irrigation, those plains will yield shields as well as food, which none of the fishing villages will have. It also has the sea, so it could grow to size 12 even without rails.

Purple Dot has good potential but will be plagued by some corruption. The whale and game mean it can grow to size 12, too.

Yellow Dot is strictly a fishing village until rails come and allow the deserts to provide 2 food apiece, but even then its growth rate will be slow. On the other hand, it will be our only city on fresh water, the only one that won't need an aqueduct.

Green Dot has a fish and hills within range, so it will be a faster growing fishing village than most of the others, but it's got nothing else but desert and coastline.

Turquoise Dot is just a fishing village, but it does have a game there, and no overlap, so I rate it as definitely worth getting.

The four red dots represent possible locations for half-size, all-water fishing villages -- some might be able to make temporary use of overlapped lands to grow faster, then swap back to all ocean when the important cities need that land. (This is one situation where Cy's never-zoom-the-cities method would not work out). Whether or not we should build any or all of these red dots, remains to be seen. The corruption penalty for adding more cities may mean it's not worth doing until later in the game.

I recommend some priority on workers, and on getting irrigation going from our ONLY source of fresh water, that oasis in the south. (Might even name yellow dot "something Oasis"). Our growth in all cities south of London completely hinges on getting more food going -- and harbors are going to be a priority in a lot of locations, too. We've gotten off to a fast start, thanks to all those cattle, and the "top 8 list" reported us as the largest civ in the world, but we will need irrigation to keep growing.


- Sirian
 

Attachments

  • infantry-homeland.jpg
    infantry-homeland.jpg
    74.1 KB · Views: 1,539
Zed, I know you followed Charis in the last game, and he's following me in the builder game, and Carbon doesn't want to follow me this time, so I've bumped you up to second place. Your turns will be made slightly shorter thereby. ;)

You're up! Good luck on your reign. :viking:

- Sirian
 
10 turns this early in the game is quite short. :) That's fine by me though...

1750 BC (0): Nottingham is building a Spearman but it's at size 4 already & we have no luxuries yet... changed to settler.

1725 BC (1): London builds spearman, starts settler.

1700 BC (2): Canterbury whips temple. I might have actually been able to do this the previous turn, small whoops.

1675 BC (3): York builds worker, starts another. Barbarian spotted in SW of island, warrior from Canterbury moved to investigate, replacement for Canterbury moved from London. London production changed to spearman. Canterbury completes temple, starts spearman.

1650 BC (4): London completes spearman, starts another.

1625 BC (5): Warrior camped on hills on SW of island defeats barb raider, barely. Nottingham builds settler, which is sent to white dot. Nottingham starts spearman.

1600 BC (6): Warrior from Canterbury locates barb encampment. London grows to 4 and is about to go into unrest -- has it been whipped recently? An entertainer is hired; London's about to finish a spearman for local defense/martial law anyway.

1575 BC (7): London builds spearman, starts settler. Production arranged so settler will complete just before London grows again. York builds another worker, starts spearman. Canterbury warrior sacks barb encampment.

1550 BC (8): Hastings builds a worker, starts another.

1500 BC (10): Nottingham builds spearman, starts settler.

Notes:
- There are 5 workers near Canterbury; right now 3 are next to it building a road toward Hastings and 2 are intended to build a road south to the Oasis, but one of the Hastings road crew could be changed to join the Oasis team. We also have a worker near hastings making a road to the wheat square.

- Canterbury & York are currently building spearmen but this could be revisited if necessary, though there don't seem to be a lot of good choices yet. York is good for building workers; we don't want to lower its pop down too far though because there are at least a couple good squares in its radius now.

- We currently don't have any granaries under construction in any of our cities. That doesn't seem to be a big deal right now, and saves us the maintenance cost on them, but we will eventually want them to grow beyond size 6 at a reasonable pace.
 
Fairly straightforward on this turn (and likely next 4 ;p)

Captain Charinfantry, advisor to the wise and noble Zed, took over for
the King after his untimely demise, "just until they can elect a new king"
and ended up running a despotic era for many years. Herein lies his tale...

1500 BC (0) - "You're a warmonger!!!" "That's crazy! Just because I'm in
the army doesn't mean I'm a warmonger! I'll prove it! You see York
building that Spearman? There's nothing to defend against, so instead
let's build a settler, managing his timing properly, to build another
great city!" (A whipping barracks town, some would say his plan was. Some
even went so far as to quote him: "When we learn how to sail these
bloody seas, if I'm in power, you'll see seven boats plumb full of my
best infantry aboard 'em! Truth or rumor, we do not know...)

1475 BC (1) - "In fact, I'm such a cultural guy... I'm going to build a
great Wonder for our nation! The Colossus! Right in my hometown London!
"Warmonger? Ok fine, switch Canterbury to a Granary!" "Uh, sir, we
need more Settlers out of London first!" "Hrrmmm... we'll see"
"Switch Hasting to Settler while you're at it!"

1450 BC (2) - 1400 BC (4) - The Captain, bored of politics, goes back to
his war room and dreams of future battles.

1375 BC (5) - Coventry founded at white dot.

1350 BC (6) - Incense arrives at Hastings. "Who ordered this funny stuff?
It's not WEED is it?! I sure hope not, heads will roll!"

1325 BC (7) - Warwick founded at Purple dot.
1250 BC (10) - Switched Hastings from Settler to Granary, as it would
take too long to get to size 3.

Consider starting Colossus in London asap. Also consider whether you
want the units coming out of Coventry and Warwick to be warriors
or Spearmen.

Good luck Carbon,
Charis
 
Jaffa, you're in. Carbon's up in both this game and the Builder game, and is following Charis in both, so unless he objects before you say "got it", I'm going to insert you in ahead of him and have you go next. Then I can still trail him, and he'll be as far removed from my turn as it gets. :)

Good luck to whichever of you grabs the game and runs with it.

One bit of advice: if the last unsettled corner of the south is kept an eye on with troops there to "display" every square, there will be no more barb camps. And no more threats. We should not build nonvet units, at least not spearmen or better, because every unit takes shields and costs maintenance, and it's better to organize things out to have one or two good cities cranking vet troops, one or two on wonders, one with a harbor making vet ships and the rest build catapults -- in between when each is not building infrastructure.

If our initial seafaring reveals a close neighbor we can REACH (doesn't look like it, but possible) without Lighthouse/Astronomy, then we can shift into war gear once we get iron. If there is one we can reach with the Lighthouse and we get it built, likewise, or we could also safely build and build and go for tech lead and more wonders (and better troops). If there are more lands in range that are unsettled, we could grab them. And if there is nothing in range until we can cross ocean, we are in for a long, long haul, and ought to keep our troops THIN to speed research once we get to Republic (which would take on some urgency).


- Sirian
 
Posted to say that I had it almost at the same time as you posted that Jaffa was ahead of me :crazyeyes . Should be good to stagger out my turns in various games, so go ahead of me, Jaffa.
 
Okay, I'll play today :)

Would have got this earlier, but I managed to log in and read during the 3-minute interval when Carbon's post said he was taking it, and when he edited it didn't get flagged as a new post, so I never checked it again. Ack!
 
Quiet years on the English island. I adjusted production a bit, stopping settler production since we seem to have covered everything except the low priority red dot sites. London started on Colossus (possibly for switch to Lighthouse when mapmaking arrives). Canterbury is on barracks, but I think a harbor would be better first.

Where is Forbidden Palace going? Somewhere on the island, or waiting for colonies?

Started irrigating northwards from the Great English Reservoir :)
 
I think it's too soon to tell, on the Forbidden Palace. There isn't a worthy spot on our island: the capital is centrally located and all the high production cities are right on top of it. It would be better to build the FP in an adjacent city than not to build it at all, but not by much. We may have a use for it in colonial lands or captured territory, later. Let's see what the sea offers, and answer this one later.

- Sirian
 
Top Bottom