Espionage Debate - Foreign Policy

[chiefpaco]

I wish to open here a debate about our current Espionage options. We have recently completed an Intelligence Agency in Fox Nest and have many more intelligence gathering options to consider. I believe Foreign Affairs is in charge of organizing planting spies, spying, intelligence gathering, and sabotage. The Science Dept is in charge of stealing Tech, I think.

Question: Should we plant spies at all? How much do they cost? What benefits are there? What risks are there?

Question: Where, when, and why should we should plant spies? Shall it be based on Forein relations (ranking), Foreign power, Foreign government, and/or something else? Shall it be strictly a case-by-case consideration for each nation or can we set a general policy?

Question: Which Espionage options may we use and which may we not use? I don't think we need to answer this one, really, because I hope that any time we can consider an espionage option, we can open a poll and use the poll's result to determine our course of action.

[chiefpaco]

I will start by listing the current costs of planting spies in each nation, as of 1520AD.

(Nation, Gold)
Rome - 72
Aztecs - 78
India - 90
Babylon - 104
China - 70
Zulu - 108
Iroquois - 86
Greece - 69
England - 114

[Shaitan]

I'd like to have a detailed look at the armies of nations we are not friendly with. I'd put a spy in every suspect nation or lower and probably most of the common neighbors.

[Falcon02]

I agree with Shaitan here, I want a detailed look at those armies. However, it must be stated that it could produce a war if our attempts fail.

[Phoenix]

I also agree but as the risk of war if we are caught is so great I think that planting spys should only be carried out when at war or near to it.

[Falcon02]

I'm not so sure about that, it seems to me the probobility of failure increases the more at edge the other nation is. In war I rarely get spies in, but of course then there's NO risk of creating a war since one would already exist.

[Cyc]

Personally as I run as much of my games as possible in a Democracy, Espionage missions are kept to a minimum. The most important use for them, IMO, is to check on a nations building of their Apollo Program and then the development of their spacecraft. Through diplomatic discusion its fairly easy to tell when they have Space Flight, so the "when" to do this is answered. Using those same discussions and then checking the Military Advisor Screen, it's not hard getting a good estimate of the oppositions Military strength. You can almost guess the year you'll see the first tank from a given Nation.
Spies should only be planted in "we NEED to know" situations. I can't see risking war for information we can get with a little elbow grease.

[Falcon02]

Cyc, what the Military Advisor screen, you only get an approximate number of units comparison. 100 warrriors vs. 50 tanks shows up as the warriors being stronger. the spies give us a feel for how modern our potential opponent is. But as you said before, IS this actually worth risking war? I'd love to have the info, but I'm undecided on whether the risk is worth it.

[Phoenix]

As Falcon has stated spies are great and if the risk of war is acceptably low then I would like to see spies in all of the rival civs. Information is a key player in any war and in perventing a war (if we can find out enough about their troop positions we can see if there is a risk of war).

[Almightyjosh]

We should keep a large standing military so that in the event that one of our spies sparks off a war we can crush them under our heel.

[Falcon02]

We have a large standing military, and we're working on making it larger. But as a civ we try to avoid war if possible. While much of our gains have come from war, we try to be a peaceful nation, never once declaring war ourselves.

[Cyc]

I agree with you Falc, about the Advisor's Screen. And about avoiding war. As far as Phoenix's and Almightyjosh's reply, the risk of war can be very minimal (transparent even) for a nation to declare war. Greece, from its island could declare war to slow our progress. The fact of a large standing army is also just as uncertain a factor as Greece has 2 men and a horse now, but if they want they will declare.

[donsig]

We didn't plant a spy in Greece during the war?!?

[Chieftess]

BTW, how do you see the units by city (when viewing the other civ - via the spy). I know it does a total unit view, but it also has a city option. (The City | Unit option in the Military Advisor Screen).

[Almightyjosh]

Well, it's a shame that the chance of them declaring war is so low... but we can only hope they do so that we have an excuse to pummel them into little bits. Mwahahahaha.
Just because we like to avoid starting wars doesn't mean we should avoid wars altogether!!!

[Falcon02]

Chieftess, you have to pay extra for city views. You get it by sending him on a "Steal military Plans" mission. I think the results are only temporary though.

I propose we put this to a citizen poll to see what the public feels about the risk of planting spies.

[Almightyjosh]

I'm sure the public will see the many benifits of undermining our enemies and stealing their secrets!! Poll away.

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by Falcon02
I propose we put this to a citizen poll to see what the public feels about the risk of planting spies.

I was intending to get to this, but wanted to hear all the opinions first. I'm not sure we're in a rush to plant spies so maybe we can talk about it even more.

So far, I gather this much about the advantages citizens like:
- Space Ship progress
- Military troop counts
- (Possible) Military troop positions

Here are some disadvantages:
- Risk of war
- Risk of poorer relationships

I guess cost is not an issue. I haven't heard or thought much on which nations might tempt us to plant a spy in. Perhaps the more powerful ones with bigger military and more Space Ship building capacity? What about our most favoured nations? I'm not sure we should be spying on them. I'm also wary of planting spies on aggressive and Communist nations because they are more likely to take it the wrong way (we were only peeking )

[Almightyjosh]

Lets hope they DO take it the wrong way, after all, we meant it the wrong way. What do you mean "why do we want to know where every unit in your army is?" Chairman Mao? It's just friendly curiosity, really. Troops? At your borders... never... mwahahahahahahahaha. Ha.

[Eklektikos]

I think that the desirability of planting spies depends hugely on the results of the victory condition poll. If (as now seems unlikely) the nation opts for a diplomatic victory I would be against trying to plant a spy under any circumstances. If a cultural victory is the chosen condition then it doesn't matter THAT much what other nations think of us, although I'd still prefer to leave well alone as I don't see spies aiding us much in the pursuit of the win. On the other hand, if we are to aim for the space ship victory it might be worth the risk of planting spies in those civs that have the technology to begin a spacecraft. Then if the worst comes to the worst we know which civ we need to attempt to hobble.