My occ game in gotm 18. *warning: spoilers!*

Ah, the FUN in Fundy.

OK, so here’s how this all happened:

I decided to basically goof around and play the GOTM 18 as an OCC effort. While I didn’t particularly expect to win per se, I did take some time and formulate a strategy that I thought would at least give me the best shot. Given our forced Fundy, it really changed the landscape quite a bit from a “normal” OCC where one gets to Democracy, celebrates, and can often get through the tech tree before the 1700’s arrive. So, with the lack of tech, and with the obvious wartime advantages of a Fundy, I thought it would be interesting to win an OCC game by conquering.

And still, with the slow tech I was bound to be seeing, this would change the landscape even for an OCC conquer game. I didn’t know how quickly I’d be able to get to espionage – which is usually the key in one of these types. I was worried that I’d either get there and have way too many cities to deal with by that time, or I’d have to eliminate some civs and then the tech would be slowed to a point where espionage would come too late. With this in mind, I decided NOT to rely on getting spies for my “dirty” work.

My plan, therefore, became one of speed conquer – though I am NEVER an early conqueror by style.

My feeling was that once one was able to get to the wheel – or better yet polytheism – the offensive units that one has (especially if they can be vets) in the early years will outstrip most defensive units at that same period – assuming no walls are present. A quick jump to monotheism can almost guarantee superiority until gunpowder. The only danger, really, was facing vet pikemen for most of the early offensive units are considered ‘mounted’.

I figured, as a worst case, if there were civs that I just could not eliminate in time I would still have a few good centuries to TRY for the spy game.

So I tried to get together a plan for various aspects before I began:

1. TECH: I wanted tech to be slow. Slow as can be. Very slow. I did not want feudalism in anyone’s hands and I MOST certainly did not want to see gunpowder running about. With this in mind, I would NOT trade techs. I’d be able to take them anyway by razing cities, and the more techs out there and in the mix the quicker everything else was going to start popping up. I hoped to kill off a few civs quickly to reduce the trading factor as well. Some of the techs I did want included map making, writing (dips), polytheism, monotheism, and iron working.
2. Wonders: This was an interesting category. There were some wonders that I knew I wanted right away.
· Lighthouse – would allow me to travel about without fear and search/conquer where needed.
· Great Wall – yup, the Great Wall for me. I could NOT let this wonder fall into any AI hands. City walls prevent population decrease when a defender is lost and will not raze a size 1 city when it’s taken. If a rival got the Great Wall, I’d have to wait for metallurgy before I could take them on.
· Magellan – didn’t know if I’d get to Navigation, but this would certainly help
· Sun Tzu’s – I’ll take it if I can get it. Would guarantee vets from my city, and give me vets on other stuff after victories. Would help my NON units to become vets right away. Also nice to keep out of the AI hands as I would hate to face veteran everything when I invaded their lands (especially pikes). Also works well with…
· Leo’s Workshop – actually nice but wouldn’t have been totally necessary for me. In fact, I would not have cried too much if I lost it. It would upgrade the AI’s stuff, but to non-vets which would have been OK. Problematic if all their defenders upgraded to pikes, but I could play that one “by ear”. In turn, my upgrades would be to non-vets as well, but I’d have to see what I’d be upgrading to… Upgrading to muskets would really be worth it.
· Marco Polo’s – very key wonder for the obvious reasons. Had to know cities, what techs were being studied by whom, and it would even give me the cities that were building wonders at that point in time.
· Great Library – Actually, I did NOT want the Library at all. Again, I did not want to have free/traded techs running amok, so I did not want to build this thing. I would take the time to find the city with this wonder and do away with it at first opportunity. I hoped it would take a while before this was built.

3. Military: I wanted, certainly, to get to vet elephants and then to vet crusaders as quickly as possible, but I also knew that I needed defense. Legions would be nice, because as I went at cities there would be times that I would attack with, say, and elephant who would then be a sitting duck outside of the gates. Even if that was the last defender on that turn, I couldn’t take the city if it was still size 2 or greater. We all know the AI cheat where it can build a unit and attack with it in the same turn, so my attackers would HAVE to have some defense as well.
4. Trade: Caravans would be nice for extra beakers toward some science. It would have to be handled delicately, again, because I did not want to have lots and lots of techs and lower the time it would take for the AI to get their own.

So onward I went. I am sorry that I did not really start to keep a log until about 475 BC. This was when I killed off the Romans and actually began to think I had a chance to win this goofy game. I’ll give a brief account of my beginning time.

Thankfully, from my first hut I was granted a NON horseman. I went about searching for a nice OCC city site, and later kinda kicked myself. Yes, specials would be nice, but I wasted WAY too much time looking for a place to settle. I just needed to be coastal and have the potential for some good production. Trade meant next to nothing, nor did growth as I (correctly) felt that I likely would not get too far past size 12 anyway. I should have just grabbed the first decent place that had a coastal area and plenty of land to work with – possibly even some hills. I settled in the northeastern part of the landmass, and was angry at myself for it. As it turned out, my guess at the pattern was right on, and I ended up with two silks and two whales. Ack. The silks would change to WHEAT of all things – useless. So much water meant a drain on my production (I was NEVER going to get to offshore platforms), and there were 3 or 4 swamps around. Urgh. I was stuck.

I had three bouts of very good luck, and the first came when I popped my second hut. Mapmaking. I was psyched because it meant triremes right away and the possibility to take first crack at the Lighthouse. Funny, but if this had been the tech in ANY other game, I would have been cussing out loud at the computer. Even in this game, I wasn’t all that thrilled – until I saw that we were on a dang island that is! Anyway, I think there was another hut on the island where we started that gave me like 25 gold or something equally dumb.

Once I settled, the first thing I built was a trireme. Having searched the island fairly enough, I sent it out with my NON horsie and hit the land to the east right away while I started a barracks. My horse, after a few turns, came across the Egyptian city of Memphis – which was size 2. They contacted me and asked to trade (they wanted to give me Masonry). I said no, and declined peace. I even got them to declare war (I think – I could be wrong). Anyway, my horsie bravely attacked and killed the defending warrior with almost no damage and became a vet. Memphis was now size 1, and I moved right in, took Masonry, and, would you believe, KILLED OFF THE EGYPTIANS. Huh? I didn’t think Memphis was the Egyptian first city, and there was no way these guys could have started so close to me.

The answer became clear as my exploring horsie almost ran over the city of Thebes. My second lucky point in the game was that invading barbarians (likely from a hut I think) were kind enough to capture Thebes and keep it for their own. For this reason, the Egyptians were an extremely quick kill, and with a single diplomat stationed nearby the city was a constant supplier of NON archers. At times, other barbs would land/spring up with leaders in tow as well. It was a great hot spot, and the exploring troops I had were able to cover the very ample continent that the Egyptians started on.

I was able to study alphabet, writing, and a few others before studying my own techs began to take WAY too long. I would have to get Trade from somewhere (I hoped soon). Possibly from a hut, though it ended up I didn’t have to. I did get currency from a hut, though. Yippie. Getting iron working from a hut was nice, though.

I began to send my bribed NON archers all over the lands, and they popped a variety of huts. I got mercifully few techs (again, I wanted the world to be tech-poor), found a few barbs which annoyed me (still unwilling to put another dip out on that continent, but I really should have), and a few good extra NON units. In all, I did get a fair amount of NON units – and many were elephants and a few were legions!! I began using my horsemen as scouts and keeping the elephants and legions in reserve. I also got some cash, which allowed me to build up a decent batch of units before I started the Lighthouse. Again, I was building a decent standing army of NON units which was very nice so I didn’t need to go too nutty at home for them. Still following the coastlines, I landed a nice batch a bit to the south. I think they included 2 or 3 horsemen, 3 or so NON elephants (well, one was supported – the hut must have been too close to Kyoto), and 2 dips. This group pretty much stayed together for hut-popping purposes. I no longer feared barbarians – in fact, they became nice to get!

I found the Romans in relative short order. I lost a few horsies and a dip bumping into cities, but speed was needed. They left me a bunch of huts to pop as well, and I bribed a few of their own units just for kicks. I think they only had about 3 or 4 cities built at the time, and they fell rather nicely. During this time, some archers came across a Persian city that seemed to be out in the middle of nowhere. Can’t remember the name, but I knocked it down with the forces I had available, and they were kind enough to provide me with Trade. The searching continued, and this is where I decided to begin a basic log. It’s kind of sparse, but you’ll get the general idea.

I probably left some stuff out or misprinted some stuff but...

BC 475: The last Roman city falls (can’t remember which) and there is no more white civ.
325: War with the French has been raging, and we were able to raze the city of Rhiems
125: The Persian city of Gordium finally falls.
50: The French capital of Paris has fallen, and with it goes the Pyramids.
AD 1: The Greeks are discovered. Over the next few years, exploration goes badly as they kill off two diplomats and sink my trireme. I did manage to steal polytheism in the mean time.
80: The French city of Orleans finally falls.
120: Marseilles falls. After pestering the Persian city of Antioch for a while, it finally falls
140: The pitiful city of Tours is gone and with it goes the French. Sioux cities are later spotted nearby. Nice new target.
420: Wine to Corinth for 330 gold. Monotheism is getting closer. Marco Polo is built in Kyoto.
540: After many years of attacks, the first Sioux city of Cedar Creek falls and the Hanging Gardens along with it. As it was the capital, the empire splits into Sioux and Aztec forces. Beads to Herakleia nets 302 gold.
560: The discovery of Monotheism by the Japanese bodes evil for the rest of the world. Start engineering.
580: Salt to Athens nets 330 gold. Will be soon gathering some mighty troops to send out to Sioux/Aztecs and for future Greek theater.
620: Kyoto cathedral built. Crusaders begun.
640: The city of Wounded Knee falls.
700: The city of Little Big Horn falls.
720: Peresopolis is found. Slim Buttes is found.
740: Bear Paw – undefended size 1 city – falls. Archers raze size one city of Peresopolis.
800: Three Forks and Killdeer (now Aztec cities) are found rather close to one another. Three Forks attacked. The Persian capital of Parsargadae is found.
820: Three Forks destroyed.
860: Killdeer razed.
880: The Persians begin the Great Wall. Will have to build it in Kyoto.
900: Stony Lake burned to the ground and ends the short life of the Aztec empire. Herakleia of the Greeks builds King Richard’s Crusade. The Greeks switch to Great Wall in Athens. Forces already heading to Greek mainland to take them on while “mop up” force remains behind to finish off final Sioux city of Slim Buttes.
1020: Slim Buttes, an empty size 3 city, is taken by the Greeks – removing the Sioux from the world. It is now a size two Greek city populated with an elephant.
1040: Start war with the Greeks by wrecking Slim Buttes and taking engineering (study invention). Now, only Greeks, Persians, and a single Japanese city remain in the world. War with Greeks continues with the first battle of Athens.
1080: The last battle of Athens as their capital falls along with the Oracle.
1100: Greek capital moved to Thessalonica. Where the heck is that? After a few attacks on Sparta (Great Library), word reaches that the Greeks have begun the Great Wall (in Corinth and Pharsalos as says the Embassy). Switch attacks.

[About this time I began to realize that I had better send some forces toward the Persians. They were beginning to get along a bit quickly in the techs, and I needed to harass them a bit. I had 2 archers and 1 legion in a fort the Persians built near their capital, and I began an aggressive building campaign in Kyoto to get vet crusaders, a legion or two and a dip out to the Persians. I planned to send them due west as it seemed I might be able to get off an attack at the capital from the sea. We can all figure out how that didn’t work, but at least I could pester the Persians this way. I sent some extra forces from the Greek theater as well, but the way the land was laid out, I don’t think those forces ever reached Parsargadae.

1180: Corinth falls. Forces moving inland to take out Pharsalos. The Japanese get Invention. Now a choice, either Astronomy (to get to Navigation and Magellan) or gunpowder (for obvious reasons). Chose gunpowder.
1200: My southern force takes out Herakleia and with it goes KRC.
1220: Southern force finds Ephesos (size 3 no walls).
1240: Find the cities of Rhodes (size 1 no walls) and Eretria, where Athens once stood, is also found (size 1 no walls).
1260: A dark day for the Greeks. Japanese ‘split squads’ destroy Rhodes and Pharsalos.
1300: The city of Ephesos is razed.
1320: Greeks move the capital to Sparta.
1360: The Persian city of Sardis is found (size 4 no walls). It would seem that there is NO easy way to get to the capital, will have to send diplomats over land. Decide to attack at Sardis when more forces arrive. Persians almost finish Great Wall. Japanese spend half the treasury to be sure that they finish the GW first.
1380: Two key event. First, the Great Wall is completed and the Persians abandon the effort. Second, the city of Sparta is destroyed (along with the Great Library). The Greek nation splits into the Greeks and the Indians.
1420: Southern forces take out Thermoplae. The Indian city of Troy is demolished.
1500: City of Delphi is finally taken out after a long war and several stupid losses.
1500: Persian city of Hamidon located (size 3 no wall).
1550: Tyre found (size 2 no walls). Greek city of Argos is gone.
1570: Tyre destroyed – banking taken. Peace made with Persians thanks to GW.
1580: Persians break the peace with a sneak attack near Hamidon.
1590: Hamidon razed – bridge building taken. Sardis taken. No tech left.
1610: Greek city of Knossos falls.
1640: With only two Indian cities and one Greek city left, many forces are dispatched to assist in the Persian theater.
1660: The last Greek city of Eretria is destroyed. No more Greeks
1680: Persians now have Feudalism and start Sun Tzu’s.
1700: The long battle to take down the Indian city of Mycenae finally comes to fruition. Only the Indian city of Thessalonica remains – wherever that is. Thinking that forces have been seen out of the northeast.
1720: The city of Samaria found (size 5 no walls). The city of Thessalonica found (size 4 no walls). Feudalism is stolen from the Persians.
1740: Tarsus found (size 5 no walls).
1752: Persians almost finished with Sun Tzu’s. Japanese rush it.
1754: Sun Tzu’s School built in Kyoto. Persians abandon. I sell my barracks for a bit of extra cash.
1760: Thessalonica falls and the Indians are gone from the earth.
1770: Persian city of Arbela falls. Finally. Samaria follows this same year. Persia still has 9 cities and they are studying Mysticism for some reason. LOL.
1776: Wandering forces find Ergili (size 4 no walls) after running through the ashes of Arbela.
1780: Ergili is destroyed.
1782: Huge losses are being taken near Tarsus. I lost a stack of FIVE units that included a pike, two elephants, a catapult and a crusader in one single attack. Reinforcements and dips are on the way, but my cruddy 3-move triremes are taking forever. Some of these cities must have barracks and producing vet elephants.
1790: A Persian PIKEMAN bribes one of my crusaders. That’s cheating! Crusader later killed for being a traitor.
1794: The HUGE city of Susa is found. It is size 8 and has city walls. Will be a difficult nut to crack.
1800: After much hardship, the Persian city of Tarsus falls.
1804: Sidon is discovered (size 5 with city walls). Waiting on some diplomats. Several have landed east of Parsargadae and have been traveling by the northern polar route to the fortress where units are on guard. Lately, the attacks on this fortress have been more deadly – killing one of the archers. Parsargadae must have a barracks now. More forces being sent toward the capital.
1806: Diplomats we have in the field sabotage Susa. Destroy barracks, granary, and archer production in the city, but the walls still stand.
1814: Gunpowder discovered, and just in time as the fortress near Parsargadae only has a legion and a few attack units left. I head for Astronomy.
1824: The first diplomat that hits Parsargade destroys the city walls of the capital.
1832: Leonardo’s Workshop is built in Kyoto. My millions of archers (bribed from thebes), legions, phalanx, etc. are made into musketmen. They will be vet muskets with any victory. Finally, protection for my attack troops is all but assured. Persia gets Mysticism and starts… Chivalry. That should be useful for them. (They have invention and could have started gunpowder. Muskets could have really hurt my efforts, but what can you do).
1842: The capital of the Persians, Parsargadae, has fallen and the Colossus is destroyed. The Persians are split into the Persians and the Sioux (THEM again?) Persian cities include Bactra (new capital) and Sidon while Sioux cities include Susa, Dariush Kabir (capital) and Ghulaman. The Sioux are studying gunpowder as the Persians stay with Chivalry.
1844: Bactra found (size 4 no city walls). Extra dips from the Parsargadae incident hit Susa and take out the city walls there.
1846: Persian capital of Bactra falls.
1848: Thanks to a lot of units hiding in Susa, this city is razed in this year. The search is on for missing cities.
1854: Ghulaman found (size 4 no walls).
1859: City of Dariush Kabir found (size 5 no walls). Diplomats hit Sidon in force and destroy (in order), temple, granary, marketplace, settler production, and then finally the city walls. Gets me back for the luck at Parsargadae.
1865: Sidon falls. What’s this? The Persian city of Zohak was settled out there somewhere. Drat.
1869: Persian archer is spotted on a different part of the land mass. Will investigate.
1871: Built Mike’s Chapel for the heck of it (more points?)
1872: Found city of Zohak (size 2 no walls).
1876: Took a few years, but Zohak is gone and the Persians with it.
1878: Use some extra dips left over to destroy the granary in Ghulaman. It kept growing and annoying me.
1881: Ghulaman destroyed. The only remaining city is the Sioux city of Dariush Kabir.
1887: Dariush Kabir keeps growing, too. Remaining diplomats hit the city and wreck a market, settlers in production and the granary. Nothing is left there. Deliver some caravans
1888: Discover Astronomy and switch to Navigation. Rush Cope’s for the heck of it (more points?).
1891: The city of Dariush Kabir is razed. Game over. Only the Japanese city of Kyoto and the Barbarian city of Thebes remain on the earth.

Score = 1945
252%
Tokugawa the Magnificent.

So, what may you ask was the THIRD lucky thing that I came across? Well, it was more of a general thing in that I only had THREE cities that ever built city walls on me. What was the deal with the AI? They had plenty of time but just never did. In fact, it was ONLY the Persians that did at all. Well, didn’t look a gift horse, I’ll tell you that.

In retrospect:

I did get lucky with some things, but perhaps it was balanced by the difficult placement of the Persians for me and my 3-move, two-unit carrying triremes. Oh, how I longed to build a ‘canal’ city.

Some things I would have done differently: I should have seen that the Greeks were going for invention after I took engineering from them. Could have figured the Persians would hit it, too. I would have likely been better served by going for Astronomy earlier, stealing invention, and then hit Navigation. It was BEYOND annoying to work with 3-move ships that only carried two units. The Lighthouse has NO effect on triremes – something I had forgotten.

I think I may have been able to press the caravans a bit more, but I was working with speed and didn’t really WANT to discover a lot in order to keep us all stupid. However, gunpowder was GREAT. I ended up using muskets as my main attack force at the end as the Persians and the Sioux kept producing pikemen which were beginning to hurt my elephants and later my non-vet (and even vet) crusaders.

I should have gone after the Persians even earlier. I was stupidly trying to carry 10 shields in my home city for the sake of partial-rushing. I don’t know why, but later I just kept building until I was at only 1 shield. With decent enough cash, it should have been a higher priority to have more ships and vet units in the field than having 10 shield production. When I lost a supported unit (or FIVE), I could just replace them.

That’s about it. I’d be happy to discuss further if any of you all have some questions (or really even care in general). It was certainly fun (though at times frustrating – but that was fun too J)

Looking forward to seeing how everyone else performed.

Very interesting game indeed.

Three months ago, that is before I discovered this site, even the idea of conquering the Civ2 world with only one city would have been ridiculous to me. Still this is most amazing. Wonderful job.

You conquered the world with one city faster than I will be doing with many many cities. (I have played till 1872 so far. Roman, French, Sioux are gone. Greeks are down to a few small cities. Persians and Egyptians are untouched.)

Wow, nice job Kev! U B Da Man! OCC Conquer can be difficult (es. tedious) on a small map, but it is really cool that you did it on a large map!!

The Lighthouse has NO effect on triremes ? something I had forgotten.

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I'm sure you were talking in context; but just for completeness, I'll add that the Lighthouse does indeed have an effect on Triremes that you make: they are vets, as are all naval units. Plus (and this is valuable ony for humans), you Triremes will not have a possibility of loss at sea due to ending turn away from land.


Very nice writeup & great game!

Starlifter:

Of course the vet aspect of the triemes was nice, and the fact that the Lighthouse eliminated the possiblity of the 'lost as sea" syndrome was the reason I felt I had to build it. Still, having those 3-move ships the whole dumb game was beyond annoying.

Ali:

Likely the reason I conquered earlier is that my whole focus was in doing so. I did not have to take the time to build settlers and settle new cities or anything like that. Had a lucky break with the Egyptians as well.

If you ever try to do this in the future (where ALL government choices are available), the better way to go about it would usually be to generate spies like a crazy person. With spies, one can shrink cities with poisoning water supplies and then target and remove city walls as well.

But what the hey, it was certainly interesting!

Thanks for reply guys. I curious to hear what strategy suggestions others might have had in this case.

1871: Built Mike?s Chapel for the heck of it (more points?)

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You get 3 gold per city per turn as a tithe with MC in Fundy!!

I'm not much of an early conqueror, but the OCC conquer the worlds I've done in the past were primarily done with spies, poisoning down the water supplies and killing the size 1 city. The biggest pain for me was the speed aspect... spies returned to the capital, and had to be transported to ever further distances.

On the other hand, I can see that with early conquer, there are fewer cities to destroy, and they are smaller.

I had civs split, too, when attacking the AI. Often, the factions would be at war and I could just get out of the way for a few turns while they pummeled each other's units and cities. I'd shift to another civ until they made peace.

It looks like you have a very good strategy in this game. I think were were all helped by the AI being in Despotism. I think (am almost 100% sure) that you are the first to CTW in a OCC GOTM! Congratulations!

Kev,

Great game. Great log. I’m impressed.

I’m hoping that Starlifter can come up with a suitable award for your game (maybe “Intolerance towards cities not named Kyoto”).

Starlifter:

I had actually already built a cathedral - which in an OCC actually cancells itself out pretty much with upkeep anyway. Duh.

O n S:

Thanks for the kind words. Perhaps I can get an award for the most wonders destroyed. I had to laugh when I hit the F7 key and saw "LOST" next to so many wonders.

Thought I'd pop this to the top in case anyone is thinking about an OCC game with this installment. I played an OCC conquer game for #18, but I'd be wary about doing this for #24 for several reasons:

1. No huts will be killer.
2. In mine, all of the AI's remained stuck in Despotism - which wasn't horrible for them but kept the whole world pretty stupid. Given the other choices available to the AI in this one, you'd best watch out.
3. If you actually read my account (which I'd be surprised ), I really got lucky at the beginning with the barbs taking out a civ.

However, if you're feeling like a challenge, some things that may work in your favor:

1. The map is smaller, I believe, than the one for #18.
2. Stealing tech or getting tech from the GL could help you keep pace even without the huts.
3. If going for an OCC conquer, I'd probably try to take out some civs early with military and then later with spies. Spies can make things doable if you have enough cash to bribe units when needed. They do not take up a shield so you can just build tons and tons of em and knock down walls and poison the population.
4. Even if going for spaceship, I'd try to take out a few civs early on. With no restarts it will lessen the field of competition. Also, if some launch, it can still be possible to get some spies and units out there to crush the capital (and perhaps some other capitals that rise up). The only problem here is that tech may go so slow that there would not be TIME to get to the spaceship techs.

Well, for what it's worth it would be an interesting game to play. Perhaps 'ol Kev will have to give it a shot.

Good luck all.

Kev, great log, love it man, encourages me to put in my own for this gotm. with all the cryptic initials and non-explained strategies that seem to be pretty much standard in logs, i've been wary of putting one up. (sorry guys, nothing personal, just a newbie perception, which could be considered a good, fresh, insight right???)

but, anyhow, just a few notes

totally awesome idea, of leaving a barbarian city around so you can bribe the units it produces into non-units. with sun tzu and mike added on that's an unbeatable combination.

i'm just curious but would that also work if you bribed foriegn settlers instead of just killing them off. would you get non-settlers?

starlifter

your problem with spies being returned to your capital, i just build a new palace that's a lot closer. somehow, it feels like cheating, but hey, i'm also risking my empire getting cut in two also, right???

kenny:

Your idea about the capital movement is a great one.

Sorry if my log was confusing - I'd be happy to explain anything that wasn't clear. It was a while back so I'm not sure what kind of details I'd be able to give you.

The barbarian city was pure luck in that game, but it was DEFINITELY a nice hot spot to leave a few dips. I think I ended up with over 50 non-units from that city.

If I recall correctly, in bribing a foreign settler/engineer it depends on its proximity to your own city as to who supports. If it's closer to a foregin city, then it would become a non unit. Very handy for getting that second non-settler (later a non-engineer) in an OCC game. Realistically, more than two engineers is fairly unnecessary.

Glad you enjoyed. I'm considering taking a shot at this OCC myself as well.

Looking forward to reading your log.

but i'm not so sure i'm ready to take a shot at OCC quite yet, though. and those non-settlers would be a big boost in a non-OCC.

here lately i've been trying to be more aggressive by aiming straight for iron working to get legions. but my science and taxes start suffering quite a bit after a while cuz it takes forever to get to monarchy.

btw i hadn't noticed, until after my post, how long ago that you had played the game, i just saw that it was an active thread with posts that i hadn't read yet.