Who's ganging up on whom?

Zachriel

Kaiser
Joined
Oct 7, 2001
Messages
2,294
Location
Jovian System
There has been some controversy as to whether the AI will always gang up on the human player. Though on higher levels the human's "worth" is somewhat devalued by the AI Civs, they do not necessarily gang up on the human player.

Here is an example of a true tour de force by Sullla. Notice how everyone is at war, except RBCiv-4 (Caesar), who rises above the chaos around him, smirking.


Realms Beyond Epic 4: Ad Aeturnum! For the Glory of Rome
http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/

Many games can be won strategically, and game mechanics are often secondary. The picture tells the story. (I just had to post it. It's a great screen shot.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I should point out that this was a Deity game as well, and I had absolutely NO intention of getting involved in THAT mess! :)

Actually, the feeling that the AI civs always gang up on the human is correct to a certain extent, but in reality it depends on what you are doing. When we were discussing this game after it was over, Sirian summed up the philosophy behind Civ3 this way:


"You repeatedly mention surprise at how nice all the civs were to you. This shows lack of experience with Sid Meier games in general, and with earlier incarnations of Civilization in particular.

See, Sid has this philosophy of adjusting difficulty in-game to match player performance, ASIDE from the stated difficulty levels. If you are top dog, the civ with the most lands, most population, most productivity, most tech, you are hated by the AI's. They fear you, loathe you, want to tear you down and will band together to do so. By contrast, if you are the midget or weakling, the AI's are designed to cut you slack.

In Civ1 and Civ2, this factor was the all-encompassing factor of the game. If you were top of the power graph, that was it, it was You vs The World. ALL the other civs would hate you and band together, share tech with one another but not with you, form alliances against you, etc etc. You couldn't BUY a friend! Yet... if you suffered... if you had trouble... if you were middle of the pack, they cut you some slack. If you were trailing, they considered you little threat and would bully and pester you less.

The unrelenting hatred of the AI's for the top dog civ is the biggest single detracting factor in Civ1 and Civ2. It's honestly why I quit playing. I vowed not to return to any more Sid games until he moderated the "Screw You" factor a bit. Well, he finally did so in Civ3. Now you can be top of the power graph and still hold on to SOME friends if you deal with them honorably and generously.

Yet the fact remains that Sid still cuts breaks to the struggling player while saddling the successul player with more adversity. You're NEVER going to find any Sid game at any point without this fundamental game design philosophy. They are part of what sets his games apart from others and add to the addictive quality of them.

Which is precisely why players MUST PLAY THROUGH a Deity game to fully comprehend the nature of Civ III. You come up to Deity expecting the AI's to trample all over pathetic little you and it just isn't so. You fall so far behind the AI's with their massive bonuses that you end up, invariably, in last place or darn close to it, for most of the game. From that position, the AI's consider you no threat and will tend to bully you around a lot, but if you suck up, they rarely move aggressively against you."


I've observed this to be very true in the games I've played. When you are ahead, the other civs tend to be against you but they will still deal with you if you treat them fairly and honestly. When you are behind, you largely get ignored and left alone. Players who find that everyone always hates them are probably the ones that break treaties before they end, exploit ROPs to attack, extort cities and tech from the AI... Essentially, you reap what you sow from the AI civs in Civ3.
 
Seriously, anytime I'm powerful enough that the AIs all start ganging up on me, the question of them doing so is purely academic, since I have already won anyway.

imho, the AIs are all pussy cats, as long as you obey some basic rules. One in particular, is don't build a city one square away from their cities.

Even when the AI does surprise attack me, I can normally "convince" the other AIs to sign military alliances against them.

I played the same game as Sullla did, in which he got that screen shot, and although I didn't take a screen shot, a very similiar thing happened in my game. In fact, I never fought a single war in the whole game, while I think each of the AIs fought several, including many bloody conflicts. I won the game with a diplomatic victory, and could probably have won a spaceship victory too, if I had wanted. The full report is at http://www.kalikokottage.com/sirp/romans.htm
 
hey, i am as many people would call it a Jr. player im only up to Warlord, but i think i am very close to beating warlord and moving up a notch. I do agree with u. I do not knwo how much yuor theory applies to Chieftian, i was the biggest baddest civ on the planet, no one stood a chance alone. but they ganged up on me the maniacs, i had killed like hald the civs around but since i pu the game with 16 civs that didnt mean much. In the end i won, but barely by a cultural victory. I dont like that aspect in the game, and since i had allready betraqwed SO many people it was really very hard for me to "buy" friends. So i had to win by culture couse i began loosing agaisnt the 8 civs that ganged up on me, alone none would have stood a chance but together they were begining to wip me. Is there anyway u can betray every1 and still buy friends near the end of the game?
 
julius: you had "betrayed SO many people", and you are surprised everyone gangs up on you? In my games, I avoid betraying anyone, and would only do so if it was absolutely necessary for a win. If you start betraying people, and become the most powerful, then no kidding, everyone is going to gang up on you! There's good reason not to be evil and treacherous.
 
Never betray anyone, simple! War can be made respectfully, without betrayal. Sometimes after a war, they're only annoyed at you instead of furious (without signing additional agreements).

I find I only get ganged up on if I am the weakest. If I am the strongest, its mainly culture/science and not militarily, so they don't pick on me cos i'm great. If you are the weakest, pay them, be humble and secretly build your strength. Yes, they will pay for their foolish pride.

I have seen them pick on other civs, usually the weaker ones, unless someone betrays someone else. When this occurs, it's usually oblivion for the unlucky (or stupid) recipient.
 
The ganging up is a lot less bad than with 1.21. Simply stated, the AIs act less like sharks and more like nations. But they still can be bought too easily by the human.
 
Killer: The RBEpic 4 was played with 1.21. Also, glad you agree the AIs can be easily bought by the human :)
 
Originally posted by VanillaCube
Speaking of Betrayal. Has anyone else noticed that America is betraying the Iroquois by not being at war with the Germans?

He doesn't have an embassy with the Americans
 
Originally posted by Sirp
Killer: The RBEpic 4 was played with 1.21. Also, glad you agree the AIs can be easily bought by the human :)

Oops!

Well, if you were rich enough...... it was always possible, rich and strong does it.

But it is a LOT better now, early wars do no longer lead to a cascade of wars with far-off civs. I remember well 1.16 times, where i was at war with every single civ from the second continent unitl Astronomy arrived and I could dend credible forces there - suddenly, they wanted peace.....

I often was at war with civs I'd never met, only bought contact to from someone. Ridiculous!
 
I ruled at Civ 2 but i am not nearly as good on Civ 3.

In Civ 2 everyone usually ganged up on me but this did not usually happen till later when I had about 100-200 cities and I could easily cope with it, even in deity.

In Civ 3 this happens far earlier and I cannot usually bribe them to stop. I am absolutly slaughtered because I am so focused on expansion and not on defense. I am a coward and avoid war until I have masses of cities which churn out a tank or battleship really quickly and then I just CHARGE!!!

I believe they DO gang up on the human player and I suffer because of it! :eek:

jmansell02
 
Originally posted by jmansell02
I believe they DO gang up on the human player and I suffer because of it! :eek:

As long as you keep your reputation clean and don't go breaking any deals or sneak attacking anyone, the Civ3 AI civs will generally leave you alone. While it's always possible to get a random attack from a militaristic civ, generally the AI will treat you the same way you treat it. Deal with them fairly and equally and they will deal with you the same way. If you stab them in the back, break treaties at your whim, etc.... well, you have only yourself to blame if everyone gangs up against you. :)
 
Sullla: generally..... but as soon as you have something they need..... Current game I am strongest, an age ahead, been nice to everyone, only defended myself - and Japan has three times declared war despite being on a different continent - because I didn't give them iron (2 times) or coal (once) for free.....

an right away, they buy everyone into it.....
 
In the game I am playing at the moment it is 500AD. I have 55 cities with about 25 of them just producing settlers at the moment. I also have tonnes of workers to build the roads for the road network and spares to irrigate and mine. Because of my massive number of cities which just keep growing :) (I am in a Golden Age) I am far more powerful than anyone else and for this reason they are all ganging up on me. Alone against me they would simply be slaughtered sooner or later but togeather they are almost overwhelming!:eek:

They often gang up on me because I am powerful and they are supposedly terrified that I will exterminate them. (They shouldn't worry, I won't hurt a fly until I've got far more cities than I have at the moment)

However I have noticed that if a AI player is powerful, they NEVER gang up on him, they lick his boots. (Is there any way I can turn into a PC! :D )

jmansell02
 
Lt Killer: In some of my games that has happened to me too.

Once they even wanted:

5 technologies
about 500 gold
5 gold per turn
spices

If I did not comply they said they would kill me!

I didn't give it to them and was slaughtered by the 7 civs that sided with him, big mistake!

jmansell02
 
Originally posted by jmansell02
Lt Killer: In some of my games that has happened to me too.

Once they even wanted:

5 technologies
about 500 gold
5 gold per turn
spices

If I did not comply they said they would kill me!

I didn't give it to them and was slaughtered by the 7 civs that sided with him, big mistake!

jmansell02

seen that, too, and often they buy three or four allies before it is the humans turn...... nothing you can do even if you have ten times their money to give to allies.....
 
they really demanded that off you?? I never get extorted for that much; wish I did, it'd make it a whole heap more interesting!

Every time I get extorted, it's for some gold, less than 100 usually, and perhaps territory or world map. Occassionally I will get a tech demanded, and sometimes a luxury or resource. Doesn't happen often though.
 
Everyone should take a look at sulla's Realms Beyond Epic 4: Ad Aeturnum! For the Glory of Rome game. It is a perfect example of why not to give up when you are losing.

In it there is also an example of AI players ganging up on another AI player. (Could sulla please give details of why this happened.)

Also congrats to sulla on winning the game! :goodjob:

jmansell02
 
Speaking of betrayal, my personal philosophy is to never break any agreements while in a non-representive government, but when in Republic or Democracy, I often abandon MMP or Military Alliance partners 'cos WW is so painful (I'm sure Zouave will claim this as an example of how the game rewards unhistorical play). For reasons I'm not entirely certain of, my wars tend to be fought early or late in the game (ie rarely in mid-game), which means that my rep is usually shiny until so late it doesn't mean too much.
 
Top Bottom