Office of the Judiciary - Term 1

This is the official thread of Fanatika's Judicial Office.

The Constitution of Fanatika can be found here.

The Judicial Log can be found here.

Chief Justice: Octavian X
Public Defender: Danke
Judge Advocate: Bill_in_PDX

Term 1 Active Census: 41

Term 1 Basic Quorum Level: 21 (1/2 Active Census)

Term 1 Full Census: 53

Note on the census: The active census is needed to pass changes to the CoL, or to approve various officials for office. The full census is only used for constitutional amendments. 27 yes votes are needed to pass a constitutional amendment, along with a 2/3 vote of the Senate.

What goes in this thread?
Almost anything having to do with the rules of the nation is appropriate to this thread. We do want to keep discussions to a minimum so a new thread may be spawned off if necessary. We'd rather err on the side of inclusion so if you're not sure if it belongs here go ahead and post it anyway. If it doesn't belong, we'll direct you to where it should be. Specific items that should always be posted in this thread include:


Requests for Judicial Reviews (for Articles, Laws, Standards, and Clarification of existing rules)

Requests for Investigations

Requests for advice on the rules and how they work

To start off, Bill and Danke, what do you plan on naming your cities? I am compiling a list so we won't have a no-name, and to avoid the confusion we had last game over naming rights.

My city would be New PDX

Umm.. I think we may need yet another new rule: How to start the Creation Day Game, or it's procedures. I'll start a thread...

Don't bother, CT. It was started in one thread and then I started another. No one will reply...well maybe 8 of us will.

Also Disorganizer hasn't opted me and Grey Fox for the #demogame room. There was also an incident with a user named Townboy3. I finally warned him, then he left.

[20:47] <Townboy3> 14 14how many more minutes till it
starts
[20:47] <Townboy3> 14 14how many more minutes till it
starts
[20:47] <Townboy3> 14 14how many more minutes till it
starts
[20:47] <Townboy3> 14 14how many more minutes till it
starts
[20:47] <Townboy3> 14 14how many more minutes till it starts
[20:47] <Chieftess> Stop flooding!

[20:49] <Townboy3> 14 ???
[20:49] <Townboy3> 14 wha???????????????????
[20:49] <Townboy3> 14 wha???????????????????
[20:49] <Townboy3> 14 wha???????????????????


[20:54] <Townboy3> 14 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[20:54] * Townboy3 is really very bored.
[20:55] <Stuck_as_a_mac> but i apeased the masses
n made iron working first
[20:55] <chiefpaco> SAAM, we don't even have a
plan to make the GL
[20:55] <theGreyFox> yes, it includes everything,
moving a unit, settling, whatever
[20:55] * Townboy3 is really very bored.
[20:55] * Townboy3 is really very bored.
[20:55] * Townboy3 is really very bored.

[21:01] <Townboy3> 14 er7777777777777777777777777
[21:01] <Fionn696_> we wouldnt be playing it to
see what happens tho, we would be settleing
[21:01] <Townboy3> 14 srry

[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 yhuttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
cvcvvvvvvvvvvvvvt6rt68u77uyyt7ikhhhrftgjkhg
[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 srry


[21:02] <donsig> Game Creation Chat shouldn't
last too long, As, we'll create the game,
discuss what's on the map (without making any
moves or changes), then "take it to the forums".
[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 srry
[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 srry
[21:02] <bclg> townboy sh
[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 y?
[21:02] <Townboy3> 13 srryy
[21:03] <bclg> cos
[21:03] <bclg> random letter and numbers are
annoying
[21:03] <Townboy3> 13 o
[21:03] <Chieftess> ok, the game has been posted
10 minutes ago.

(note, Townboy's text was in white here)


[21:04] <Townboy3> 0 954674682270983786735699578967
546256527866727868577777777777777777777777777777
777777777777777777777777697927963789060nhvnhh
vgdskhbshdgjntgh tgbgfdbhnertvrwehrtbrd8tuth
[21:05] <Chieftess> Townboy! STOP IT!
[21:05] <neutral> squelch him!
[21:05] * theGreyFox would kill to be an Op right
now


As you can see, there was some senseless spam, but since disorganizer hadn't opt'ed GF and I, we couldn't do anything about it. (Even Falcon is away at school - he's opted in there)

Disorganizer will get to it later tonight, when he gets on.

TheGreyFox and Chieftess are now added. As i was not aware we would have cration day so soon. And as i was not on the chat before (and obviously falcon also) nobody could add those persons. An adding of those persons would not have been allowed before (they were eligable for this position at 00:00 on 1st of september. which timezone was not mentioned ;-).

I am hopeful that if you all need further discussion on the chat room issues that you will take it outside of the Judiciary thread.

Thanks ;-)

I was wondering if the judiciary could give me their opinion on the legality of posting this poll without the input of the relevant governor. It should be noted that I posted in his thread drawing attention to the poll proposal more than 24 hours ago, but as yet have received no response.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
I was wondering if the judiciary could give me their opinion on the legality of posting this poll without the input of the relevant governor. It should be noted that I posted in his thread drawing attention to the poll proposal more than 24 hours ago, but as yet have received no response.

Click to expand...

Opinion - Public Defender

The Poll pertains to the initial Capital Province build queues, which are clearly defined in CoL Article D, Section C as being the express responsibility of the Provincial Governor, except during time of mobilization, or except, in certain circumstances, by presidential decree.

My opinion is that this poll cannot be considered an official poll as it would illegally overide the duties of the provincial governor, and therefore must be informational only. As an informational poll, no CoS mandated discussion is required. The regulations do not require specific parties to be consulted prior to any poll, official or otherwise.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
I was wondering if the judiciary could give me their opinion on the legality of posting this poll without the input of the relevant governor. It should be noted that I posted in his thread drawing attention to the poll proposal more than 24 hours ago, but as yet have received no response.

Click to expand...

Judge Advocate Opinion

I had a huge discussion of this typed out, and then the forum crapped out on me as I posted, so here is the condensed version:

First, you are more than legally right to post a poll, but that really isn't your question. It appears to me that you are positioning this as an official poll, and the question at hand is, would it be binding?

Finding: YES it would, assuming you continued to follow the requirements for an official poll, and you achieve a passing vote with quorum met.

Discussion: The Code of Standards, Section F, Point 3, defines the requirements for an official poll. These have been met to date.

The Code of Laws, Section D, Point 1, defines the responsibilities of a Governor, and as noted by our esteemed Public Defender, Point 1, c(3) defines when a build queue can be preempted.

It is my opinion that the c(3) is not applicable here, and applies to a established and approved build queue. No such thing is in place here, as the governor has not posted his builds in his discussion thread, and the President is asking for those builds as of this morning.

It should be noted though, that regardless of that, I would still approve the poll even if build queues existed. Here is why:

Constitution, Article A, guarentees all citizens the right of free speech and the right to demand satisfaction. Those rights are further defined in Code of Laws, Article A, where free speech provides for the right to post a poll on any topic, and demanding satisfaction includes the ability to compel a leader to heed the will of the people through a properly posted poll.

Recommendation: Ek, you have always been an inclusive person in your discussions, and I am sure you wish that AJ would jump in. I would wait until the end of 36 hours later today to post your poll should he not respond. After that point, he will have been provided official courtesy of time to see the discussion and respond, and will instead have moved to absentee status as defined in Code of Standards, Section J.

Bill
Judge Advocate

Was this meant to be a Judicial Review?

Chief Justice Opinion

Technically, this poll would not be binding, even if it met requirements. Technically, to set any sort of build queue, we'ed need the governor himself to give intructions. For any sort of enforceable build queue to be established, a council vote would be needed. It would be good at an informational poll for the so the citizens could express their opinion to the council.

Therefore, the vote would be useless unless it was a council vote.

Judicial Discussion:

The Judge Advocate and I came at this from different directions. I based this on whether content of the poll risked overriding constitutional or legal divisions, and therefore, whether or not it could be legally binding.

Bill rightfully pointed out that the forms for posting an official poll had been met, and he goes on to imply that an official poll, properly implemented can override legal definitions of office. Is there precedence for this? Should we explore this issue? I am curious as to my fellow judicial leaders' opinions.

I'm terribly sorry that I was unable to get to this issue in time, RL elections are getting in the way a little at the moment. I think this is an issue that needs to be citizen polled, and it was always my intention to poll before posting buildques, I just wasn't quick enough.

I'm happy to work with the results of this poll, but it seems that it will need some tinkering to be translated to a working buildque.

My arguement, as it was with other people in the tongihts' turn chat, is that to override an elected official's intstructions, or lack thererof, an administrative council vote is needed, as defined by Section C, Point 3.B of the Code of Laws.

Octavian, no argument there.

My sense of the original question was not how to deal with an absent leader, or how to override a leader's instructions, but rather whether an official poll was a legal means to do so, particularly as it could result in a situation of confusion where the DP was being guided by both a poll and last-minute official instructions from a leader.

This may not be worth debating, quite honestly.

Octavian, surely that interpretation is contradicted by CoL C, 1, A?

This states the the Presidency "Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have not been set by a department".

The official constitutional definition of "organize": "Organize – In the context of a leader’s duties, this includes suggesting a plan, discussing it and passing instructions on to the Designated Player"

What else can this mean except that in the absence of instructions from a leader the President is empowered to temporarily take over their role? The council vote seems to me to be clearly intended only for those circumstances where, for whatever reason, the President sees a need to overrule an existing build queue.

Yes, I agree with Ek. What I meant by binding is that in the absence of a build queue, the President would be empowed to impliment one, and Ek's poll would be clear direction on how to do so.

It is the responsibility of all officials to carry out the duties of their office, but the power of those duties still is in the hands of the citizenry, and a properly formated, debated, and quorum reaching poll should not be ignored.

@Octavian - We now have an Active census and a full census. Please adjust post 1 in this thread. Thanks!