Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (4)

Celeborn · Jul 9, 2003

LotR Thread I:
LotR Modders UNITE!!!
LotR Thread II:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods
LotR Thread III (latest) :
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont)

This may be unnecessary to the regulars, feel free to skip it.
We started working on this MOD as a gathering of Modders, who had an acute interest in Lord of the Rings. This is a continuation of three threads created, as seen at the Links above. We made some significant progress in actually working together to make a collaboration of ideas, to please everyone.

What is going to be in the MOD? When will it span? What are the Civs? Has work started yet?
-When will it span?
Well, we decided that the Mod should start slightly before the coming of man. Like this:
Era#1First Age (middle-late first age, with the arrival of man)
Era#2Time of the Rings (Elven supremacy and Saurons Power)
Era#3Time of the Númenóreans (Supremacy of Man, Numenor and it's later subdivisions\Last Alliance)
Era#4Third Age(Best known, time of the peace, yet weakened state, time of the fellowship)

This way it wont be strange to have all civs in existence, and yet it still has the remarkable, mythological old middle-earth in tact.

-What are the Civs?
We havent been able to agree on Civs at this point, we have all the important ones, but have some minor squabbles, such as: is Arnor, Gondor, and Numenorë really necessary? Should Umbar and the Southrons be one civ? Should there be two Dwarf Civs? We arent sure, but would love your input.
The Important Civs we have made lists for can be located here:
The Shire
Gondor
The Dwarves
Mordor
High Elves (Noldorian)

In the third installment of our collabaration, significant work was completed on the buildings\wonder\improvment front. Unfourtunately it was sort of sporadic, and it's hard to define just what we did . For those interested to read the discussion, you can find major posts in these places:
Mrtn's post
Celeborns update
Final discussion between Mrtn and SoCalian

Discussion of the maps also took place, at which point Yoda Power offered to make an oder version of Middle-earth, you can see this here
We will be trying to decide on some of the finer aspect of the MOD in this thread, as well as work on the tech tree and final decision on the civs..

-What is going to be in the MOD?
We plan on four versions of the Mod, most important first.
Mod Types
Random Map Mod (regular)

Middle Earth- Map of Middle Earth, with specific placed things (like dragons)

Lord Of the Rings quest- (You can only choose out of 3 Civs, though the rest make an appearance, but depending on the Civ you choose, you have a specific Victory cond.)

Older version- This will have modified ages, and different civs, such as the Vanyar, and unique buildings\wonders.

-Has Work Started on the .bix yet?
Yes, Celeborn has been working on the .bix for a while now, we still remian in the red however, and need more direction from fellow LotR fans.

We decided to break the game up into culture groups that now go beyond city graphic and terms of likeness, it goes into unit lines. Each culture group will have its own line, and each civs its own UU (s) for the cultures standard line. We have the Men, Evil(Mordor\Isengard), and Elves finished, they are lower in the post.

The idea we have so far, if to make Elven units better, let them only get slightly better, in the last age, and go up in Shield Cost Substantially, after all, they werent weaker then men, just fewer.

For Mordor, the idea was to make their Offensive line weaker, half or a third as cheap as the Mens. And going further, they get stronger behemoth units, that cost much more than the Mens'. Giving them something to look forward to.

Men, they act sort of like a standard. Everything is weaker, or more powerful compared to their units, they are the default.

Hobbits, passive Civ, We may make only the Space Race Victory available to them, only it will be different, and called something like Journey to Mt. Doom. All their units are Def. oriented.

The Dwarves are dwellers of the mountains, they will get a slew of unique bonuses, such as certain resources unique to them, and the ability to travel through mountains easier than most Civs.

Bombard- We gave all the archer units a Bombard ability, they will not be able to attack the ground, but when a group of 2 archers are attacked, the first archer will fire at the attacker (depending on the Bombard Strength) they should wound the offender accordingly. We havent decided on Lethal Bombardment yet.

Hit point table.
Conscript 3 HP
Regular 4 HP
Veteran 6 HP
Elite 7 HP

Stat Key.
Attack\Defense\Movement
Bombard Range=BR
Bombard Strength(attack)= BA
Bombard rate of Fire= ROF
HPB = Hit Point Bonus, will the unit get more Hit points than Default, or less.

Men
Defender Line-
1a. European Spearmen (utahjazz7) Name: Edain militia -
1\3\1 +1HPB
1b.Germanic Spearmen (Kinboat) Name: Spearman -
2\4\1 +1HPB
1c. Halberdier- (JimmyH) Name: Pikeman (?) -
3\5\1 +2HPB
1d. Pikemen (Civ3)? Name: Armored Pikemen -
3\6\1 +2HPB

Offensive Line-
2a.Tribal Warrior (Yaniv) -
2\1\1 0HPB
2b. Swordsman (Civ3) Beserker -
4\3\1 0HPB
2c. European Swordsman (utahjazz7) Name: Swordsman -
5\4\1 0HPB
2d. Scottish Warrior (Kindred) Name: Long Swordsman -
7\5\1 0HPB

Missle Line-
3a. Skirmisher (JH) Name: Skirmisher(?) -
2\2\1 -1HPB . BR0 . BA2 . ROF2
3b. Bab. Bowman (Civ3). Name: Bowman -
3\3\1 -1HPB . BR0 . BA4 . ROF2
3c. Robin Hood (Kinboat) Name: Archer -
4\4\1 -1HPB . BR0 .BA5 .ROF2
3d.Longbowman (Civ3) Name: Longbowman -
5\5\1 0HPB . BR0 .BA6 .ROF3

Cavalry Line-
1a-b. Horseman (civ3) Name: Horseman-
2\2\2 0HPB *blitz
1c.Cavalry (Jimmyh)?? Name: Cavalry -
3\2\2 0HPB *blitz
1d. Knight? (Civ3?) Name: Knight -
5\4\2 +2HPB *blitz

Mordor
Units will be cheaper, the Shield Cost wont be determined until all unit lines are finished.

Defensive Infantry line-
1a-b.Goblin Spearman1 (embryodead) Name: Goblin Spearman-
1\3\1 0HPB .BR0 .BA1 .ROF1
1c.Goblin Spearman2 (Kindred) Name: Orc Spearman -
2\4\1 +1HPB .BR0 .BA2 .ROF1
1d. Cave Troll (Kindred) Name: Cave Troll -
4\6\1 +3HPB .BR0 . BA0 . ROF0

Offensive Line-
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion (embryodead) Name: Orc Warrior-
2\1\1 0HPB
2b. Orc Warrior (embryodead) Name: Orc Swordsman-
3\2\1 0HPB
2c. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axeman-
5\3\1 0HPB
2d. Uruk Hai Berserker (Kinboat) Name: Uruk Hai-
6\4\1 0HPB . BR0 . BA4 . ROF1

Archer line-
3a. Black Orc Archer (embryodead) Name: Goblin Bowman-
2\2\1 -1HPB . BR0 . BA2 . ROF2
3b. Orc Archer [color] (embryodead) Name: Orc Bowman-
3\2\1 -1HPB . BR0 . BA4 . ROF2
3c-d. Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Archer-
5\3\1 - 0HPB . BR0 . BA6 . ROF3

Cavalry Line-
4a-b. Wolf Rider (embryodead) Name: Wolf rider-
2\2\2 0HPB *blitz
4c-d. Warg Rider (embryodead) Name: Warg rider-
4\3\2 +1HPB *blitz

Elves
Elven Defensive Line-
1a-b. Phalangite(kryten)or Elven Spearman(embryodead)Name:Elven Infantry-
2\4\1 +2HPB
1c-d. Elven Spearman(Kinboat) Name: High Elven Infantry-
4\5\1 +2HPB

Offensive Infantry Line-
2a-c. European Swordsman?(embryodead)(Name:Elven Soldier-
4\3\1 +1HPB
2c-d. Elven Swordsman(Kinboat) Name: Elven Longblade-
6/4/1 0HPB

Archer Line-
3a-c.(Japanese Unit Pack)Name: Elven Archer-
3\3\1 0HPB . BR0 . BA5 . ROF3
3c-d. Elven Longbowman (Kinboat)-
5\5\1 0HPB . BR0 .BA7 .ROF3

Cavalry Line-
5a-b.Horse archer(Kryten)Name: Elven Rider-
4\3\2 0HPB BR0 . BA5 . ROF3 *blitz
5c-d.(Japanese Unit Pack)Name: Elven Cavalry
4\4\2 +1HPB . BR0 .BA6 .ROF3 *blitz

Dwarves
Dwarven unit line. This one is complex, mainly for the races lack of archers\cav. So, they should clearly have the best infantry around, to compensate for it.

Main Defenders.
1a-b. Dwarven High Guard v1 (Kindred72) Name: Dwarven guard (name???)
2\3\1 +2HPB
1c-d. Dwarven High Guard v2 (Kindred72) Name: Khazâd guard (name?)
4\5\1 +3HPB

Main Offense. (Weaker defense but more HP)
3a-b. Dwarven Ironbreaker v1 (Kindred72) Name: Dwarven Cleaver (name?)
4\1\1 +2HPB
3c-d. Dwarven Ironbreaker v2 (Kindred72) Name: Khazâd cleaver (name?)
6\2\1 +3HPB

Cav replacement.
2a-b. Dwarven Warrior v1 (Kindred72) Name: Dwarven Warrior
3\2\2 +1HPB *unwheeled *ignores mountain terrain movement cost
2c-d. Dwarven Warrior v2 (Kindred72) Name: Khazâd Warrior
5\3\2 +1HPB *unwheeled *ignores mountain terrain movement cost

Hobbits
Main Defenders.
1a-b. Medieval Resistor (Kinboat) Name: Hobbit Warrior
2\3\2 (-1)HPB *Draft *Ignore movement on hills
1c-d. Belgian resistor Kinboat) Name: Hobbit Militia
1\6\1 +1HPB *Ignore movement on hills

Offense1. This should be double the shield cost of the last defender.
3b-d. Hobbit (Kindred72) Name: Bounder (Shirriff Bounder?)
5\1\3 +2HPB *ignores forest movement cost

Archer Line.
2a-b. Bab. Bowman(Civ3, shrunk) Name: Shire Reeve3\3\1 -1HPB . BR0 . BA4 . ROF1
2c-d. Robin Hood (Kinboat [shrunk]) Name: Shirriff
5\5\1 0HPB . BR0 .BA8 .ROF1 *unwheeled *ignores Hill movement cost *Draft

Also, we should shrink the Worker and Settler down a bit. All non-small units will be shrunk.

SoCalian · Jul 9, 2003

Here's a the final list of buildings from the previous thread for those that are interested in it.

[COLOR=royal blue]Final Building Names
Palace= same
Barracks= same (mod the graphics a little)
City Walls= same
Library= Lore-house
Marketplace= same
Aqueduct= same
Granary= same
Temple= Altar
Courthouse= Gallows
Harbor= Port (acts as a "Sea Baracks")
Civil Defense= Keep
Wealth= Trade
Police Station= City Guard
Colloseum= Tavern
Factory= Sawmill
Cathedral= Temple
University= Library
Bank= Merchant's Guild
Commercial Dock= Trading Port
Stock Exchange= Treasury
Manufacturing Plant= Smithy
Coal Plant= Furnace
Hydro plant= Mill
Hospital= Apothecary
Research lab= Royal Archives
Offshore Platform= Fishery (+1 food in every sea square)
Mass transit= Ferry (needs to be near water)
Nuclear Plant= Mithril Mine (Requires Mithril to be in city radius, releases Balrog insted of 'meltdown')[/COLOR]

Deleted Buildings
SAM= none-era
Airport= none-era

Problem Buildings
(if no good names are given for these, they will be deleted.)
Coastal Fortress= Sea Defenses?
Recycling Center= ?
Solar plant= maybe some elven, ie clean, thing?

SoCalian · Jul 9, 2003

In case you wanted a Valinor Civilivation here is some info.

Leader:Manwë Súlimo

Capital: Valimar

Cities:
Almaren
Alqualondë
Avallónë
Formenos
Halls of Mandos
Haven of the Swans
Swanhaven
Tirion
Tower of Avallónë
Valimar

Lords of the Valar
Manwë Súlimo
Ulmo
Aulë the Smith
Oromë
Mandos (Námo)
Lórien (Irmo)
Tulkas Astaldo

Queens of the Valar (Valier)
Varda Elentári
Yavanna Kementári
Nienna
Estë the Gentle
Vairë the Weaver
Vána the Ever-young
Nessa

This table shows the fourteen Valar in 'due order' (i.e. in descending order of power).Names shown in bold indicate one of the eight Aratar,the mightiest of the Valar.

Most of the cities are Elven but since they lived together it would be apropriate. We could have a combined civ maded up of Elves and Valar This could be achived by giving them a Valar leader and Valar Great Leaders, Elven units and some other units at the start of the game representing the different Valar drawing some what from their various characteristics. These would also act as the UUs for them. Anyways just a thought

.

SoCalian · Jul 9, 2003

hres the wonders list but it is by no means final. All names are open to discussion. I will update a neccesary, and the same goes with the "Problem Buildings" on the Buildings post.

?Ring-Lore - The Manhattan Project (not for nukes)
?The Necklace of the Dwarves - The Colossus
?The Silmarillion - Universal Suffrage
?The Palantíri - Intelligence Agency
?The Ring of Barahir, Red Book of Wechmark - Heroic Epic
?Pits of Angband The One Ring - Sun Tzu's
?Mallorn Trees - The Hanging Gardens
?Spies in Many Lands - The Great Library
?Legendary Commander - Military Academy
?Pits of Angband, Mount Doom(Orodruin) - Iron Works
?Brutal Recruitment - The Pentagon
?The Ring of Meilan - The Great Wall
?Knowledge from over the Sea - Theory of Evolution
?Aüle's Teachings - Copernicus'
?Mariners of Old - The Great Lighthouse
?Grace of the Valar - The Oracle
?Elven Beauty - Bach's Cathedral
?Elven Smithies - Leonardo's Workshop
?Corsairs of Umbar - Magellan's Voyage
?Grace of Eru - Sistine Chapel
?Ash Plains, Caves of- The Pyramids (ash is excellent fertilizer)
?Temple to Morgoth - Shakespeare's Theater
?Trading Houses - Adam Smith's
?Endless Libraries - SETI
?Battlefield Medicine - Battlefield Medicine
?Lieutenant's Abode - Forbidden Palace

PCHighway · Jul 10, 2003

Ah, after the wonders, a perfect place to bring
up this discussion. As we know, the Hobbits
strengths weren't really in there military
prowess, but rather in their peaceful nature.
What if we made it so only the Hobbits
could build the 'Red Book of Westmarch' which
would be the equivalent of a space race victory?
And to make up for their lack of good units,
why not let them be the only civilization that
can build the equivalent of the UN? This would
always make them a nominee, but wouldn't be
as instantaneous of a victory as Red Book of
Westmarch would be.

Your probably thinking it would swing the game
to much in their favor, I disagree. The option
would be able to be turned off anyway, and lets
face it, the majority of the Hobbits units were
designed for defending their borders. They need
some thing to look forward to, not to mention both
of these things ring true to the Hobbit nature.
The Red Book of Westmarch would be constructed
in 'chapters', a hard job for the Hobbits,
who will probably have smaller, more
agricultural cities than the rest.
*ahem*

Code:
Arathorn-
Here are my suggestions for governments.

Code:

[u] Name Mil. Pol. Corruption Prod. penalty Rush Free Units WW Draft Other[/u] Despotism 2 rampant -1 for 3+ Forced 4/4/4 None 1 None Communal Anarchy 1 communal None Cash 2/4/5 Low 1 Immune to propaganda Exalted Mayor 2 communal None Cash 4/6/8 None 2 Immune to propaganda Stewardship 3 problematic None Cash 2/4/8 Low 2 None Kingship 3 nuisance None Cash 3/5/9 None 3 Immune to propaganda Tyranny 4 communal -1 for 3+ Forced 4/6/10 None 3 None Enslavement 5 minimal None Forced all None 4 Immune to propaganda

Free units is # of free units for town/city/metropolis, in that order. Mil. Pol. is number of military police allowed to keep the people happy.

Despotism would be starting government for all nations/races. The elvish race(s), hobbits, and dwarves would get access to Communal Anarchy and then Exalted Mayor. Gondor, Rohan, and relatives would get Stewardship and then Kingship. Mordor, Isengard, and other evil races/civs would get Tyranny and then Enslavement. (As I understand things, it should be possible/easy to make certain governments civ-specific by use of no-era techs. This would also make the research of governments only available to certain civs....)

I have no real good idea how balanced these are. They "felt" close as I was writing them, though, so they should have a chance to at least make it to play-testing. Since no govt. gives the current Republic/Democracy commerce benefit, it should help keep tech pace a little more liesurely, which I think is good, since you/we are only doing 3 ages.

Comments needed, please!
Arathorn

I actually think we were
going to have four eras, by dividing the second
age into two separate eras. My only complaint is
the name of some of the governments, and how
everyone is a communist

. I think corruption is
a very big part of the normal civilization game,
and find it difficult to throw it away so easy.
How about this.

Code:

[u]Name		Mil. Pol.  Corruption   Prod. penalty  Rush    Free Units  WW  Draft  Other[/u]
Start Gov-
Tribal chiefdom    2      rampant       -1 for 3+     Forced   4/4/4      None   1    None
Dwarven Gov-
House Alliance?    3      nuisance      None          Cash     1/3/10     Low    2    sabotage production
House Confed?      4      problematic   None          Cash     2/4/10     Low   3     sabotage production  
Hobbit Gov-
Mayorship          2      communal      None          Cash     3/3/6      None   2    Immune to propaganda
Exalted Mayorship  2      communal      None          Cash     4/4/8      None   4    steal plans
Men Gov-
Kingship           3      problematic   None          Cash     2/3/6      Low    2    None
Stewardship(G)     4      problematic   None          Cash     2/4/8      Low    2    None
High Kingship      5      nuisance      None          Cash     3/5/10     None   3    steal world map
Elves Gov- 
Monarchy*          4      problematic   None          Cash     All        None   2    Propaganda 
Empire?            5      nuisance      None          Cash     5/7/12     None   4    Propaganda
Mordor Gov-
Despotism          4      communal    -1 for 3+       Forced   4/6/10     None   3    None
Tyranny            5      minimal       None          Forced   all        None   4    Immune to propaganda

Also the (G) next to Stewardship
means it should only be available to Gondor, not
all Men-Civs.
The Elves are difficult, how could we
represent them? From going to great
to not so great?
I think governments should be used to
make each civ more unique, rather than
worry about how close they are to each other.
Eager to see Mrtn's opinion :lol:

. Then again maybe its so crazy it
will work.

Sorry for the halting format.

mrtn · Jul 10, 2003

Ah, after the wonders

What do you mean, after the wonders? We might see the light in the end of the tunnel, but we don't know yet if it is daylight or just an on-rushing train.
A questionmark next to every wonder is not what I'd call after.

I think that "Liutenant's Abode" is a bad name, I'd rather call it Castle, or some other name.

PCHighway · Jul 10, 2003

You miss my ill-explained point, the Red Book of Westmarch needs to be built in small wonder\chapters (SS Thrusters) and it actually fit in, I wasn't really changing the subject. This isn't like you, I am sure you don't agree with the governments.

mrtn · Jul 10, 2003

Why isn't talking about governments instead of wonders changing the subject? :confused:

The spaceship: A spaceship should really need lots of resources. How do you fit this in with the chapters? You can't write "There and Back Again" without aluminium and rubber? :crazyeye:

Give me some good reasons here and I might join the dark side.

Sorry if I'm grumpy.

Arathorn · Jul 10, 2003

Repeated from the last thread, as it seems to have been missed....

My suggested changes to the wonders list....

Minor:
Necklace of the Dwarves -> Nauglamir
(Nauglamir is the correct name for THE necklace of the dwarves....they built lots, but only one really matter)
Ring of Meilan -> Girdle of Melian
Grace of Eru -> Blessing of Eru

More major:
Pyramids -- Glittering Caves of Aglarond
(Pyramids are food storage, as were the caves behind Helm's Deep, the Glittering Caves of Aglarond. Ash Plains has negative food connotations to me.)

Heroic Epic -- Lay of Luthien
(just a suggestion....seems to fit to me, though)

Battlefield Medicine -- Narya
(This ring gave strength to failing hearts, even in the face of the enemy. Sounds like the effects of BM to me.)

Great Lighthouse -- Ships of the Teleri
(The first elven ships to cross to Valinor)

Additions:
Newton's -- Inspiration of Feanor
United Nations -- White Council
(Did they not essentially meet and agree to give Gondor the "win" at the end of LotR -- in a twisted sense?)
Wall Street -- Dragon's Horde

The names for Forbidden Palace and Sun Tzu's still bug me a bit, but I can't come up with anything better off the top of my head.

Arathorn

Arathorn · Jul 10, 2003

OK, I like a lot of the changes PCHighway suggested. I still have a few problems/concerns, many of which were also present in my initial suggestions.

Tyranny is way too powerful -- it's the uber-government. I recommend either -1 production for squares with 3+ production (a significant handicap) or a workers work at half-speed "Other" to bring it down some. Both are reasonable within the "slave" context I have envisioned. Workers at half-pace would be my preference.

Elves are very difficult. Even if we were to make their later government worse, they'd be highly unlikely to change to it, as an AI, and a human never would. That's bad. So I'd recommend making their first government (Monarchy) like PCHighway suggested and then make their "improved" government (I would name it "Fading Empire" or something similar) like current Civ3 Republic, but with high war weariness. Giving the elvish nation(s) that as their preferred government would encourage the AI to go there when possible. The new government would be war-intolerant but still strong...like the elves of the third age. Thus, the line is
Fading Empire 0 nuisance None Cash 0/0/0 High 1 +1 commerce in squares already producing commerce

To make House Confederation stronger, I would first switch the corruptions, so that the latter government is less corrupt. Secondly, if possible, I would make House Confederation for the dwarves give +1 shield in all squares producing 2 or more shields (or +1 shield from hills/mountains if that's possible). Give the dwarves some extra production OOMPH, especially as they get more powerful. This is similar to current governments, so it should be possible, but I really don't know. (I really need to dive into the editor sometime.)

PCHighway's "Other" section confuses me. Immune to propoganda makes sense. The others? Can you pick and choose allowable diplomatic/espionage missions based on government? Is that what is being suggested?

I would make "High Kingship" have minimal corruption. The whole point of having the high king (return) was that he was going to re-unite the lands and eliminate corruption and so forth.

To make "Exalted Mayor" stand out from "Mayor" a bit more, I would give that government +50% worker speed bonus. That really gives it some flair and a bit of uniqueness.

Question: Why the huge jump in free unit support for dwarven metropolises? Is there a rationale for that? It seems out-of-place, but if you have justification, I want to see the wisdom of the selection.

I'm envisioning Kingship/Stewardship available at the same point, with Stewardship only open to Gondor (Kingship not open to Gondor). Does that jive with your ideas?

As for how to make these all work in various ages, isn't it easy/possible to give each civ a no-age advance like "Hobbit Lore", "Elvish Lore", etc. and then make certain tech advancements (like House Confederation) have a required precursor (like Dwarven Lore)? That feels straight-forward to me and should answer an issue raised in the previous thread.

I'd also make minor changes like reducing MP for mayor and monarchy by 1 (to 1 and 3 respectively).

I should probably also mention that I've envisioned anarchy staying identical to its current state. Same name, same function.

Arathorn

PCHighway · Jul 10, 2003

Arathorn-
Repeated from the last thread, as it seems to have been missed....
My suggested changes to the wonders list....

Minor:
Necklace of the Dwarves -> Nauglamir
(Nauglamir is the correct name for THE necklace of the dwarves....they built lots, but only one really matter)
Ring of Meilan -> Girdle of Melian
Grace of Eru -> Blessing of Eru

More major:
Pyramids -- Glittering Caves of Aglarond
(Pyramids are food storage, as were the caves behind Helm's Deep, the Glittering Caves of Aglarond. Ash Plains has negative food connotations to me.)

Heroic Epic -- Lay of Luthien
(just a suggestion....seems to fit to me, though)

Battlefield Medicine -- Narya
(This ring gave strength to failing hearts, even in the face of the enemy. Sounds like the effects of BM to me.)

Great Lighthouse -- Ships of the Teleri
(The first elven ships to cross to Valinor)

Additions:
Newton's -- Inspiration of Feanor
United Nations -- White Council
(Did they not essentially meet and agree to give Gondor the "win" at the end of LotR -- in a twisted sense?)
Wall Street -- Dragon's Horde

The names for Forbidden Palace and Sun Tzu's still bug me a bit, but I can't come up with anything better off the top of my head.

Arathorn

Ok, here we go again.
Nauglimir- Yes we know of the necklace, but just what is it supposed to do? Inflict the Dwarves with even more reckless treachery?

Also, keep in mind many people haven't read the Silmarillion, or the unfinished tales, and other have read it a long time ago, and find it hard to recall certain things. Sort as if I had said: 'well maybe we could do something with Saeros' there would be 80% chance you wouldn't know he who was, until I mention Turin Turambar and the tale of grief anyway. Just explain it a bit better, is what I am trying to say.

Like the idea of the Girdle of Meilan, could be used as a sort of great wall improvement.
Blessing or Eru... this isn't really a solid object, not even remotely tangible, really. Don't like this one :undecide:

.

The deal with the 'breeding pits of Mordor' as replacing the Pyramids, is mainly for this reason. What does the Pyramid do? Places a granary in every city, "effectively doubling your population" we would represent this with the 'breeding pits' which would allow Mordor to boom population wise. Which, if we make some of their units require 1 population (like a worker) would help us even more.

Battlefield Medicine and the Heroic Epic are not major, thus I think it would be difficult to have a un-generic name, such as Narya or Lay of Luthien built by every civilization. White council sounds good to me, still think it should only be able to be built by the Hobbits, however.

I will get back to your other post and mrtns later.

SoCalian · Jul 10, 2003

The Hobbit govs should have high war werriness instead of none. This would make them a more passive Civ like they were.

Fier Canadien · Jul 10, 2003

Originally posted by mrtn
What do you mean, after the wonders? We might see the light in the end of the tunnel, but we don't know yet if it is daylight or just an on-rushing train.
A questionmark next to every wonder is not what I'd call after.

NO, it's not the sun or a train, it's the Two Lamps! But beware, Melko's powers are growing, as he's going to deceive us all...

[This was just too tempting]

SoCalian · Jul 10, 2003

There seems to be alot of bickering going on and not enough cooperation. What happened here we were working so well together in the other thread, were'd it all go?

We should wait until Conquests comes out to make the final version of the mod. there will be two new civ traits (agricultural and Seafaring) We can add these to the game by giving the hobbits Indusdrious and Agcicultural and Numenor as Seafarring.

Also these Cities should be added to the Hobbit city list:

Greenholm
Westmarch

Celeborn · Jul 10, 2003

SoCalian this happens at the bigging of eack new Lord of the Mods thread...

Seafaring? That would make the Corsairs easier...

It aint the lamps fier! Them be trees...

*is looking out for spiders*

SoCalian · Jul 10, 2003

Well we seem to be almost done with the wonders so lets just get on with that.

Corsairs/Harad/Southrons (Seafaring & Militaristic)

Leader:?

Great Leaders
?
?
?
?

Capital: city of the Corsairs

Cities:
Umbar
Harad
Crossings of Poros
(Any cities in South Gondor, I can't find any)

I couldn't find many cities(only two) If you have any more post them

mrtn · Jul 11, 2003

Originally posted by SoCalian
Well we seem to be almost done with the wonders so lets just get on with that.
...

Do you do this when playing civ too? You almost take the french capital, but give up and attacks egypt instead?

I'm going away over the weekend, if there is a finished wonder list when I get back I'd be happy.

I'm very much afraid that we'll have to invent the Easterners and the Southrons almost from scratch.

Oh, SoCalian, it seems as if you have broken your treaty (whatever it's called) with Firaxis about not saying anything about c3c. Maybe you should edit your post and pretend nothing happened, I wouldn't want you to get sued.
Edit: I hadn't been to the CFC frontpage in a while, missed the gamespot preview completely.

So, everybody, ignore this thing I said last. :lol:

PCHighway · Jul 11, 2003

mrtn-
Do you do this when playing civ too? You almost take the french capital, but give up and attacks egypt instead?

I'm going away over the weekend, if there is a finished wonder list when I get back I'd be happy.

I'm very much afraid that we'll have to invent the Easterners and the Southrons almost from scratch.

Oh, SoCalian, it seems as if you have broken your treaty (whatever it's called) with Firaxis about not saying anything about c3c. Maybe you should edit your post and pretend nothing happened, I wouldn't want you to get sued.

LoL have good weekend :goodjob:

! We will try to 'make you happy'. I was not aware the wonders were in such a position of disarray. I thought we were almost done with that ages ago.
I'll look at that old 'mrtn buildings' excel document and work on it some more, should be done by the time you get back, or by the time I loose my mind.
SoCalian, As of now we should not anticipate what will be in C3C and put it in out civilization lists, unit lines, or anything else for that matter :undecide:

.

Arathorn · Jul 11, 2003

On Nauglamir:
We can either have the right name and be true to the books or we can "dumb it down" for people who might not play the scenario anyway. Similarly, how much do you know about the Colossus? Or the Great Lighthouse? People accept those just fine. I'd rather be accurate and true to Tolkien than lame and non-descript.

On Pyramids debate:
Is the plan to only allow Mordor to build the Pyramids-like wonder? If so, then Breeding Pits would be fine, but it would look really strange to have hobbits benefiting from Breeding Pits! You can make the same argument for any other wonder you could care to consider. Are they all going to be pre-placed? {I don't like this idea, BTW. I like competing for wonders. Else it's not really Civ3...it's something entirely different.} If so, then many of the names can be modified to fit things better.

Also, are we looking for similar numbers/effects of the wonders? It seems easiest to start that way and to make them as general and close to the original as possible, IMO. Noldodan's original list was that way, and I was just critiquing it.

On Battlefield Medicine and Heroic Epic:
True, the suggested names aren't generic and they need to be. I don't like just copying BM and HE names, though. Hmmm.... No good ideas here then.

On Blessing of Eru:
Again, I was just modifying a suggestion. We could make-up a name.... Chapel of Eru or something, but it seems more forced. Since the wonder effects the whole civ, it wouldn't have to be "housed" anywhere. Adam Smith didn't really build a trading company, either. Nor is Theory of Evolution a big building...

On hobbit war-weariness:
Hmm... They don't like to fight, sure. Aggressiveness setting of 1 and all that. But, when pressed, they seemed to be pretty doughty fighters and didn't back down in the face of nearly-certain death. Seems like war weariness wouldn't effect them to me. I could easily be convinced to go "low" as a compromise, though.

On finishing one thing before starting another:
Well, mrtn, if you can't handle more than one thing in your mind at once, don't worry about it. Focus on whichever one you want and let the rest of us have our discussion, OK?

And, yes, I will often stop short of destroying one capital in Civ3. Or, while still attacking the French, I'll open another front with the Egyptians, because it's faster, more interesting, and a better use of time and resources.

Arathorn

PCHighway · Jul 11, 2003

Arathorn-
On Nauglamir:
We can either have the right name and be true to the books or we can "dumb it down" for people who might not play the scenario anyway. Similarly, how much do you know about the Colossus? Or the Great Lighthouse? People accept those just fine. I'd rather be accurate and true to Tolkien than lame and non-descript.

Point taken, even if you missed mine. None of us here are immediately putting it into the MOD once we think of the idea, and it would do nothing but save us time from explaining to people who don't know about the necklace, if we would be more graphic in our explanations, as I understand, youre a fan of saving time.

Arathorn- On Pyramids debate:
Is the plan to only allow Mordor to build the Pyramids-like wonder? If so, then Breeding Pits would be fine, but it would look really strange to have hobbits benefiting from Breeding Pits! You can make the same argument for any other wonder you could care to consider. Are they all going to be pre-placed? {I don't like this idea, BTW. I like competing for wonders. Else it's not really Civ3...it's something entirely different.} If so, then many of the names can be modified to fit things better.

Yes, it would only be for the Mordor or Isengard civ (didn't discuss the Easterners, but it would be stupid to let them build it) When mrtn thought it up, he made it so each of the three would successively give more food than the predecessor (obviously). I can't remember about the names, but I believe we had agreed on something like 'Utumo breeding pits' 'Angbad breeding pits' and 'Isengard breeding pits'. Or something like that.
No we can't pre-place them in the 'regular' MOD (c3cMOD.biq) but we didn't intend to anyway, it was interesting, but we (mrtn, Celeborn, and I) came to the conclusion that the Evil civ strives for all the 'good' wonders, and we ended up compromising that the good civs can't build the 'Evil wonders', but the 'Evil civs' gets a shot at the majority of the 'good wonders'.

Arathorn- Also, are we looking for similar numbers/effects of the wonders? It seems easiest to start that way and to make them as general and close to the original as possible, IMO. Noldodan's original list was that way, and I was just critiquing it.

Yes, thats the way it should start anyway, other wise why would we have to replace anything in the first drafts? We can change them as we start testing, seeing which is to powerfull and which is to weak.

Arathorn- On Battlefield Medicine and Heroic Epic:
True, the suggested names aren't generic and they need to be. I don't like just copying BM and HE names, though. Hmmm.... No good ideas here then.

Well, actually you were very close (except with Narya) I have no problem thinking that each civ would have some form of the Lay of Luthien (perhaps Mordor shouldn't be able to build this one?) it was more a problem with Narya, which is fairly easy to compensate for.

Arathorn- On Blessing of Eru:
Again, I was just modifying a suggestion. We could make-up a name.... Chapel of Eru or something, but it seems more forced. Since the wonder effects the whole civ, it wouldn't have to be "housed" anywhere. Adam Smith didn't really build a trading company, either. Nor is Theory of Evolution a big building...

Actually it is represented with a statue, regardless it looses it's status for wonder at this point, and is like saying 'hey, dude, I just built the blessing of God' and only in a minute sense is this brought upon a civ. I suppose it could be unique, but concur that this should be one of a few (if no more whatsoever) that goes in such a direction. The rest should be able to be 'built by human hands' and no, I am not overly religious, I don't go to church

.

Arathorn- On hobbit war-weariness:
Hmm... They don't like to fight, sure. Aggressiveness setting of 1 and all that. But, when pressed, they seemed to be pretty doughty fighters and didn't back down in the face of nearly-certain death. Seems like war weariness wouldn't effect them to me. I could easily be convinced to go "low" as a compromise, though.

Ditto, Hobbits are made of 'tougher stuff than they look' and we should represent their unwillingness to go in full scale war with the aggressive meter, not their WW. But SoCalians right, remember in RotK the hobbits had to be 'stirred' into action before actually fighting against their oppressors, this can be looked at as WW.

Arathorn- On finishing one thing before starting another:
Well, mrtn, if you can't handle more than one thing in your mind at once, don't worry about it. Focus on whichever one you want and let the rest of us have our discussion, OK?

You entirely missed his point

.
Too many MODs 'in production' have failed miserably because no one actually finished something they were working on before moving on to something else. I can't think of one mod for Civ3 that was made in the fashion we are going about it, I can think of many that started in the same vain, however. Moving the masses thoughts from one thing to another and leaving unfinished work (or to many things at once) is not going to help us in the collaboration we seek.

Arathorn- And, yes, I will often stop short of destroying one capital in Civ3. Or, while still attacking the French, I'll open another front with the Egyptians, because it's faster, more interesting, and a better use of time and resources.

Arathorn

Maybe, but thats not the scenario proposed, he said give up with the French, then attack the Egyptians. Who by Murphies law would end up coming back and retaking territory.
Reminds me of what the Huns did, doesn't it? And look how far they got.

- P.C.H

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