COR1: The un-Militaristic Celts.

[Corrado]

Okay, so in moving to C3C, the programmers decided to strip the Celts of their "militaristic" trait. Let's take that to the extreme, shall we?

Size: Large
Land: Random
Barbarians: Sedentary
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
Age:4 billion
Difficulty: Emperor
All victory except Wonder conditions are on and cultural conversions are on
Civ: Celts
C3C: 1.15

Variant rules:
* Standard LDK rules- no ROP Rape, no Palace Jump, no buying of workers before 1000 BC.
* We are unmilitaristic: we may not build barracks or city walls. Militaristic wonders such as The Great Wall and Sun Tzu's Academy are right out, as are the small wonders The Military Academy and The Pentagon.
* We are pacifists: we may not start a war, nor may we engage in any condition that might start a war, such as planting spies, re-negotiating Peace Treaties, or joining a Military Alliance. We may enter enemy lands, but must retreat if asked. We may join MPPs, but must follow war rules as stated below.
* If we ever end up in a war, we must prosecute it entirely defensively: our units may not leave our own lands unless going into a territory we have an MPP with in order to assist them. However, we may demand territory for peace.

Sound interesting? I'm looking for 4-5 more players. Standard 24/48.

Current roster:
Corrado
AndrewN
andvruss
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley
a space oddity

Interested in joining? Mitsho has started up a shadow game!

[AndrewN]

Sounds interesting. I have never played a game of civ (I, II or III) like this so it will be a chalange.

I'll jion in if you want to be in another SG with me

[Corrado]

No problem at all, AndrewN- you're in!

[andvruss]

If an emeny takes one or more of our cities, can we reclaim them?

I imght sign up, if that is OK by you.....

[Kaiser_Berger]

This sounds quite interesting indeed. I haven't done an SG in a while and this seems like a good oppurtuniy to get started once again, so I'll join up.

[Greebley]

I would like to join you all. My games have been very war-like of late (especially the Always War ones ). A peaceful game would be a good balance.

[Corrado]

Originally posted by andvruss
[B]If an emeny takes one or more of our cities, can we reclaim them?

Hmmm. Darned good question; I usually assume I'll never lose cities so I don't think even about it.

Since we're not being 100% pacifistic (I debated a rule that we must always attempt to get peace every turn and take the first peace offered, no matter how awful to us), I think I'll state that our units may stay within our original borders for the state of war; if those borders change due to loss of cities, we can still operate in the area and attempt to take our city back.


I'm adding andvruss, Kaiser_Berger, and Greebley to the list- thanks for joining up!

[Corrado]

Okay, so that's 5 of the '5-6' I had originally desired. I'll start the game tonight, and if we get a 6th by then, great, if not, no prob.

[Greebley]

I would slightly prefer the penalty that if we lose a city we have to live with consequences, but I am also OK with the above interpretation as well. Hopefully/Probably it just won't come up.

My initial thought on this variant is that it will be nice to have a high culture. We may even be able to gain cities via cultural assimulation. Are the Celts still religious? If so, we will want early Temples for sure. I see much use for the whip in all towns that only get 1 shield at size 1 strategy. [i.e. when they grow to size 2 they have 10 shields toward temple and need 20 more so whipping them gives you the temple in 11 turns].

[Corrado]

Well, Greebley, I'm up for swaying my opinion on it- how do the other participants feel? I'm certainly willing to make things tougher on us if that's what we want.

[a space oddity]

Can you guys use another player? My reasons are very similar to Greebley's. After all the warlike games I need to be reminded you can win also without just running over the other Civs.
I must admit my line of thought was also: "so how do we grow, hmm, cultural conversion?"

[mitsho]

hmm, I play in Gogf (will be over soon), mIV and a RBC-Fallof Rome game. There's place for another one. He and I never liked to be aggresive. So, how many players do you want at maximum?

I see that the game is very popular, so ... hm... what to do? IF there are other people coming up who want to play this game, we may start another game, a shadow game. (just really the same game on the same map, just by other players

mfG mitsho

@Corrado Ehm, you're the one who's gonna play in the Fall of Rome - Sassanids too, aren't you? (Welcome on board.. )

[AndrewN]

Originally posted by Corrado
Well, Greebley, I'm up for swaying my opinion on it- how do the other participants feel? I'm certainly willing to make things tougher on us if that's what we want.

I think we should do it the hard way .

I have never had a culture win (either type) and if we are going for a culture win then most cities we lose should come back to us . And yes the celts are religious (and agricultual )

[Corrado]

Okay, here's my decision.

On the issue of the roster:
a space oddity, you're in; mitsho you're first alternate, and if I get another 2-3 people who want a taste of Celt culture, we'll start up an alternate game with you as lead. Does that sound good?

On the issue of losing cities:
That's two so far for just accepting the loss and moving on, and none particularly strongly about being able to take them back, so unless I hear from the other players that we really want it, I'll change my mind and decide that we can only be in current territory, and if we lose a city, we must evacuate.

Sound good?

[mitsho]

What about this: We are not allowed to reconquer it, but should try with all our means to get it back by diplomacy?

Ok, with the second game. I'll look myself? (and then of course in a new thread!)

mfG mitsho

[andvruss]

How about cultural conversion and espionage? Can we take cities with those methods?

[a space oddity]

Thx for letting me in. I like Mitsho's idea of having to try to reclaim in alternative ways (culture pressure, diplo or propaganda). Best method would be not losing it in the first place, of course.

Talking of propaganda, I've never seen it work. I'd like to see us try, should be hard on Emperor though and maybe it's against the rules since it *could* result in war.

[Kaiser_Berger]

I'm up for not being able to reconquer lost cities. I'm sure it'll add a bit more difficulty, but thats always fun. I think we'll be able to hold off enemies fairly well though, especially if we get iron. Gallic Swordsmen would make for a great mobile defense.

[Corrado]

Okay, so that's 3 in favor of no re-conquest, so that's how it'll be: lose it, and we lose it.

mitsho: Begin your thread on it whenever you'd like. I'll post a 4000 BC save up here tonight so your team can work from the same map, if you'd like.

As for propaganda- does it bring a chance of war? If so, then no dice- we can't do anything that would spark a war. Of course, if we're already in a war, then prohibitions on espionage against our enemy are lifted, as they can't declare war upon us twice. But while domination games have been won with propaganda wars, I'd point out that those were only really viable when the enemy cities could be starved down. As we cannot send units in to pillage, propaganda will likely be prohibitively expensive.

But cities taken through cultural conversion are definitely ours to keep. That's the whole idea- showing the world that peace works, and getting them to join us in our quest!

[mitsho]

I'll wait till some (1 or 2) are posting here taht they'd like to play... It doesn't make sense otherwise. (ok, it does, but not much), So I definetily won't do it tonight)

another comment: I don't think we/you'll lose many cities. And second, the most important thing will be to expand as fast as we/you can, Since it's very problematic to conquer culturally And especially for later in the game, when the new resources are the hot topic: (conque jungle and deserts TOO )

mfG mitsho