Also stuck on Prince level

Help!

I cannot seem to make the jump to King level successfully. I have read so much good information on the civfanatics website in the past couple of days, but cannot seem to make the jump.

The biggest problem I have is that I will start building a new empire and run into the AI empires. They will then sneak attack me and generally make life miserable. I cannot trade with others as I start to lose the race for Wonders and need my caravans there. I cannot stop building military units as the AI is so bent on warfare. I cannot expand my empire because they will kill my settlers. It seems when I start to hold my own, an AI on some distant island passes me up on science and starts building wonders I can only dream of.

Any advice for this?

King level - normal map - normal land mass. I would like not to go too big on the map just to avoid the AI as that is part of the fun.

Thanks

I would go with something like small landmasses or large continents.Maybe knock down the # of civs for awhile.Get a feel for what you've been reading and then crank it back up.

Use chokepoints and defensive terrain to keep the ais at bay until you are stronger.Do you normally go after Feudalism early?Try it.Pikes are wonderful early defenders.Stack a pike and whatever on a mountain and nothing gets by.

Expand faster.Forget roads with the 1st bunch of settlers.Irrigation has no effect under Despo so build first,improve later.Slap down cities in such a manner as to keep the ais from expanding in a particular direction.Basically build before they do.Connect with roads later.
Lay claim to large tracts of land by building a fair disatance from the cap.Spend the time to march a settler then build back towards your core.
If you play aggressively and keep pushing your borders then you'll do fine on king level.
Explore more aggressively.Send some lowly warriors out looking for huts and civs.You don't have to have a city to claim land.A horse can pester an ai settler and keep it from building.Or wait and take an undefended city.

One main difference that helps in higher levels is the contact with other civs.
Some will make demands but others may not. It depends on how well defended your empire is on how you respond, but don't let the chance of war with a larger civ stop you from rapid exploration. Find them fast. If you have contacted more civs than any other civ you can usually trade your tech around until you have everyone elses.
Build a boat as soon as you can and load one cheap (expendable) unit on it, and go look for other civs and goodie huts.
I usually have 2 or 3 ships sailing out in search as soon as i can.
This works well at the first of the game when all the civs are close in size and tech level. Once you gain a good tech lead slow down your science and go for fast growth, then you will be set up for a strong empire.
Lord Oden

Lord Oden! Please consider me a long lost friend. I was born in Abilene!
Lived off 6th and Willis, and my grandmother lived on Meander.

ABILENE
Bobby Bare

Abilene, Abilene
Prettiest town I ever seen.
Folks down there don't treat you mean
In Abilene, my Abilene.

I sit alone most every night
Watch them trains roll out of sight
Wish that they were carryin' me
To Abilene, my Abilene.

Crowded city, ain't nothin' free
Nothin' in this town for me
Wish to God that I could be
In Abilene, my Abilene.

How I wish that train would come
Take me back where I come from.
Take me where I want to be
In Abilene, my Abilene.

Rotgut whiskey numbs the brain
If I stay here I'll go insane.
Think I need a change of scene
To Abilene, my Abilene.

Outside my window cold rain falls,
Sit here starin' at the walls;
If I was home, I'd be serene
In Abilene, my Abilene.




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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293

From Spain...

You say that your life becomes miserable with the A.I attacking you...in particular sneak attacks.

I´ve never really found that a problem...but if you are...maybe getting the Great Wall would be useful? Generally that isn´t needed, but each person has weaknesses and strengths.

I agree with you that going toe-to-toe with the A.I is what it is about...I build them up just to bring them down!

Other advice...2 defensive units per city, talking often with the A.I and swapping tech (they love you for that) and they seem to like being offered alliances even if they decline.

Other tips are to use ships early to build cities in lands where they won´t be disturbed...thus some part of your empire is always at peace and producing the science whilst the rest of the empire can deal with its threats!

As smash said...expand, expand, expand...a big empire doesn´t get pushed around.

Thanks for the advice.

I have tried again and it seems if I force myself to expand beyond what I feel comfortable with, I do much better. I also find the the AI very untrustworthy and agree that (for now anyways) I need to have the Great Wall for defense. Otherwise it seems too hard to deter attacks as my military force is relatively weak and it stunts growth too much to wage war.

Do you guys often find yourself going for money or science after you have democracy. If I go money, I may be able to buy my enemies cities, but they will pass me on technology if I don't do if fast enough. If I go science it still takes a good 3-5 turns to develop something and I must wait a long time to be able to muster appropriate firepower. Either way seems ok if properly set up in the beginning, just wondering what the general opinion on this was.

Originally posted by bechtka:
It seems when I start to hold my own, an AI on some distant island passes me up on science and starts building wonders I can only dream of.

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This is because the AI on some distant island has had absolutely nothing to do but research. Unfortunately, not much can be done about this. get used to it, or build up an army and take his wonders/tech.

Originally posted by bechtka:
Do you guys often find yourself going for money or science after you have democracy.

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I tend to go for science, unless there is a really pesky AI close to me. In this case I'll build up an army with what I have, using the money and take them out. science is generally and advantage, it takes you from to

Originally posted by bechtka:
...If I go science it still takes a good 3-5 turns to develop something...

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After Democracy I tend to average about one tech per turn (or more), What are your trade routes like?

So SlowwHand, where do you live in Dallas? I was raised in Arlington (Davis & Randol Mill).

Almost any strategy can be made to work against the AI, especially at King level. But since Smash has many similar thoughts as mine, I'll quote his text first and ad a little bit more.

posted July 10, 2001 05:11 PM by Smash:
Use chokepoints and defensive terrain to keep the ais at bay until you are stronger.

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This is crucial advice. Send out warriors to pop huts, even if you are sometimes killed by barbs. It is essential to find the choke points and hold them. Even a warrior fortified on a mountain will hold for a thousand years or more. Expand TO the enemy, and backfill later.

Personally, I always play deity, and happiness is an immediate problem. King gives some reprieve. Take advantage of a "built-in" temple at King (vs. Deity), and expand like mad.

Tech wise, get to Monarchy ASAP. No more that 5 advances. Alphabet, Beremonial Burial, Codel Of Laws, *FORCED TO RESEARCH SOME 'JUNK'*, then Monarchy. Try to discover Monarchy on an Oedo year, and do an immediate revolution. But always get into Monarchy ASAP! Get Writing (make dips to bribe attackers and barbs).

Do you normally go after Feudalism early? Try it. Pikes are wonderful early defenders. Stack a pike and whatever on a mountain and nothing gets by.

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Very true. The AI might eventually be able to bribe the pike, but send a dip to stack on top of him and Leonardo's will ensure that dude is bulletproof until late game.

Personally, I build a road network for defense. It is essential for my dips to get anywhere within their assigned radius to get the barbs!

If you got to early republic (does take a certain line of new thinking), reduce you military units to maximize production. Use Dips to attack and caravans to defend. Download & look at Shadowdale's GOTM 4 for an awesome extreme example of the power of an early Republic.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2gotm.shtml

About the AI beating you to wonders... at Deity my capital is usually starting its first wonder after a warrior and settler. Gotta start early to beat the AI.

It turns out that you really don't need most wonders, however. I like to get Pyramids and Colossus in the early years. GL is nice, but if you make a good SSC (Super Science City), you should lead the tech race easily, and can use embassies or Marco Polo to trade for the rest. Get Copernicus in the same city as Colossus, & rush a libarary and University.

Build Caravans all the time, and store them so they can instantly build the key wonders you want. Never let up on building caravans and centralizing them.

There are lots more tips and advice you can find around, but at least here is my 2 cents for an early start... if nothing else, make sure you control choke points and expand at an incredible rate (try to get about 60 cities in Monarchy by the time you research Democracy).

Do you guys often find yourself going for money or science after you have democracy. If I go money, I may be able to buy my enemies cities, but they will pass me on technology if I don't do if fast enough. If I go science it still takes a good 3-5 turns to develop something and I must wait a long time to be able to muster appropriate firepower.

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If you are able to use a Democracy, you will probably be able to skip Emperor and go for Deity soon. Democracy is, flat out, the best government in the game, and it far and away the best government for a long, violent, bloody war. But the caveat is that you need to get it up and running, and this can take several game turns to do. If a bit war is pressing, it might be best to take a detour to Communism or Fundy and build the infrastructure, then switch.

Properly run, a Democracy will return you a new advance every turn, with 0% science, 70% tax, and 30% lux (continual WLTP growth, ALWAYS!). Improperly run, a Democracy will scorch your tailfeathers and leave you singing the praises of Fundy forever.

In a Demo, what you are shooting for is Caravans/Freight, delivered overseas to a large trade-rich republic/democracy city. At times, you might have 20 to 25 ships, in huge chains, snaking around the planet. But the return on a large (or even normal) map is staggering. In mid game, you can take in 3,000 to 8,000 gold and just as much science every single turn. If you set 3 or 4 citizens to Scientists, a mere 10-20 beakers will thusly yield you an advance every day, starting about Industrialization.

You now probably see a crucial wonder for a good democracy... Magellans. With it, you can outrun bad guys and reduce your number of carge ships by about 25-35%. Be sure to build Ironclads/Destroyers to protect your shipping.

In a "standard" game (deity, 7 civs, large map, raging hordes, any terrain), many AI's will never reach gunpowder by the time you reach Stealth. After flight (or at least after Computers), you should be researching at least 2 new techs every day. Maybe a single AI civ might reach Industrialization before you hit FT001.

In GOTM 6 (Emperor, and a slow-starting game due to terrain), I finished Superconductor at a rate of 5 techs per turn. Eventually, my science output increased to 6 new techs per turn, decade after decade, and will this continue until my SS lands in a few years (settings: 0% tax, 80% science, 20% lux). My gold income is at least 15,000 (gross, 11,000 net) every turn, mostly from freight, but also from taxmen.

No other form of government can touch Democracy, especially in an all-out war (if you either have the SoL for 1-turn tactical revolutions, or UN for possible senate override).

well....I disagree kinda ..fancy that in civ.

I do believe Demo is strong but I also think/know that Commie can challenge it in every area if run it to do so.Commie empires can be turned into corruption and Senate free Republics with no more than 30% luxuries which can be turned back to 20% once celebration has commenced.This requires basically the same stuff as is needed for Demos to celebrate.

We love Days can be countered to certain degree by food caravans and granies or Pyramids.Not quite as good but a way to grow fairly quickly.

Veteran Spys...no more need be said.

A fantasic government for MP.Lost the happy wonders?You can still dominate if you know what to do.Or at least stay in there.In fact allowing the sharing of SoL is a good way to keep interest in MP games going after 1 0r 2 civs invariably get rolling and others can get discouraged.Especailly at higher settings.(which I prefer)

Sharing wonders?Blasphemy !

Maybe but give a player with no happy wonders a turn with the SoL.and he/she immediately perks up.

"So?>When are we gonna continue?"

posted July 12, 2001 03:16 AM
well....I disagree kinda ..fancy that in civ.

I do believe Demo is strong but I also think/know that Commie can challenge it in every area if run it to do so

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Yes, Commie can be very very powerful, esp. with Espionage. To be fair to Communism, I can extract one advance per day from it, too. And if my overseas trade "partner" had a big city in Democracy and I re-source my best caravans from the Colossus city, the hit on trade bonus is only about 10-15%.

But 10 turns down the road from the same starting date, a proper Democracy should bury Communism economically. In demo, build spies, and use them pronto; some will become vets. It is about a 6,000 shield hit to get 100 vet spies in Democracy vs. Communism. But if the economics is rolling right along, the gold and science will far outweigh it.

As good as Democracy is, a proper Demo is not always possible when you want it, especially if embroiled in a big war already. But Commie (or Fundy) can be used to rapidly build the infrastructure for a solid, fast growing democracy.

Another thing I use in Communism to help the growth is joining Engineers to cities, and also using Supermarkets. Smaller cities can grow every day or two. I really don't use food caravans, but know how and could if it was necessary. But I do have a self-imposed rule against it in general, so it's supermarkets and farmland for me .

If the caravans are running like they should be, I often have 80% taxes set, and will shunt the 20% to luxuries, if my carvans get through intact. This will usually keep the Colossus city (at a minimum), and usually a few others, celebrating.

BTW, the mathematics of the game usually make Fundy the 'best' government at any given instant, purely in terms of gross resources produced (science, shields, gold).

i know it has been said above but rapid expansion is the key to early domination on the higher levels. I usually build a phalanx, followed by an exploration unit, and then 3 settlers in a row. For superb advice refer to the War Academy - SSC and Super Growth. This is how i learnt to overcome emperor and diety.

Originally posted by starlifter:
So SlowwHand, where do you live in Dallas? I was raised in Arlington (Davis & Randol Mill).

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I'm in Richardson. I have an uncle in Arlington.



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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293

Originally posted by starlifter:

Properly run, a Democracy will return you a new advance every turn, with 0% science, 70% tax, and 30% lux (continual WLTP growth, ALWAYS!). Improperly run, a Democracy will scorch your tailfeathers and leave you singing the praises of Fundy forever.

Click to expand...

Wow! This seems amazing. In my current game around year 1850, king level, democracy, 30+ cities. When I set to 60/0/40 I would recieve a new discovery every 10 turns. 1 seems amazing. I would switch back and forth so as to keep up on technology.

How many trade routes per city do you aim for? I usually have 1 or less up to city size 6-7. This must be way too few and is most likely the key to the game. I am starting to see how crucial trade really is.

If you are starting new cities with say 15 previously established cities already around, do you build caravans before anything else? Or should I build a marketplace first?

[This message has been edited by bechtka (edited July 12, 2001).]

Wow! This seems amazing. In my current game around year 1850, king level, democracy, 30+ cities. When I set to 60/0/40 I would recieve a new discovery every 10 turns. 1 seems amazing. I would switch back and forth so as to keep up on technology.

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You have a very small number of cities. I like to have at least 150 total, with 100 full size and 3 trade routes... then you'll be able to research from scratch 1 tech every day with about 30% science. But that is silly, because you should always deliver more freight value than what is required for the next advance. This will ensure a new advance every turn. If you like long, drawn out, bloody military campaigns, research tech at 1 per every 4-10 days. If you want Stealth vs. Musketeers, get at least one advance every turn starting in Mid game.

How many trade routes per city do you aim for? I usually have 1 or less up to city size 6-7. This must be way too few and is most likely the key to the game. I am starting to see how crucial trade really is.

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Every city eventually gets 3 routes. A city gets routes as necessary to keep it growing without stopping.

If you are starting new cities with say 15 previously established cities already around, do you build caravans before anything else? Or should I build a marketplace first?

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New cities rush or PRB units for conquest, if necessary (dips/spies, usually). But normally, they go straight into bush building about 10 improvements in 10 to 15 turns. Marketplace, Bank, Supermarket, Airport, Superhighways, Colosseum, Aquaduct, Library, Univesity, Sewer System, Harbor.

This is not always the exact order, but put the Airport and SH in before dumping freight into a new city. The bonus is huge.

BTW, my new cities in a Democracy usually start off with size 3, not size 1. I want the WLTP day from the very outset! You will gain 9 to 15 turns of growth if you do. Otherwize, my size 14 city would be laughing at a size 2 that started from scratch.

In Demo, get trade (gold and science) and grow. Let nothing stand in your way, even war!

Democracy is also great as she means you can´t be bribed...suck on that you commi pigs.

Although a human vs human game I really think that democracy would be severely tested if hit by a republican government...

Thanks all for the help! Trade is the key to this game... The more one trades, the more money, science, and happiness. Life is beautiful...

How do I close this thread??

I play Deity with some sucess, and I almost never use caravans for trade. Foreign trade is a waste since your always at war before long, and domestic isnt worth allot. Build more settlers and cities instead!!

I couldn't agree less.

I use to play on Deity all the time and never used caravans for nothing more than building wonders. I have won many games that way.

Now that I have used them for delivery and trade routes, I can't image playing a game without them. Not only do they provide money for rush buying units, but science as well. I usually have half my cities building settlers and the other half building caravans. I expand and grow very quickly now. Now I win many games but with a huge score. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif" border=0>

Edit: spelling

[This message has been edited by Duke of Marlbrough (edited August 24, 2001).]