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Old Mar 04, 2004, 07:17 PM   #1
Celeborn
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Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (Undecim)

Quote:
LotR Thread I:
LotR Modders UNITE!!!
Half-way-point.
LotR Thread II:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods
Half-way-point.
LotR Thread III:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont)
Half-way-point.
LotR thread IV:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (4)
Half-way-point
LotR thread V:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (5)
Half-way-point
LotR thread VI:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (part-hex)
Half-way-point
LotR thread VII:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)
Half-way-point
LotR thread VIII:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)
Half-way-point
LotR thread IX:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (nona)
Half-way-point
LotR thread X:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (deca)
[latest]
Half-way-point

It isn't necessary for the regulars to read this part, feel free to skip it.
We started working on this .mod as a ‘gathering’ of Modders, who had an acute interest in Lord of the Rings and Middle-earth. This is a continuation of ten threads created and discussed, as seen at the links above.
Signifigant work has been done on the .biq, and if we really work hard on it, then we can expect the next thread to be a beta test thread. Still, it is important to be patient, it always takes a long time to make a mod from scratch for one person (only one can work on the .biq). And even then, look at DyP and TAM. Both have been worked on since C3C’s release and the c3c updates are not yet available. Making this a quality project will take time, but we still have hopes that the beta will be out soon.

Thread Log
-In the Third installment of our collaboration, significant work was completed on the buildings\wonder\improvement front. Unfortunately it was sort of sporadic, and it's hard to define just what we did . Discussion of the maps also took place, at which point Yoda Power offered to make an older version of Middle-earth, you can see this here.

-In the Fourth thread, we have gathered some new blood, and discussed about how to implement certain civilizations into the game, namely Isengard and Rohan. We set our course to make it clear, to stomp on the sporadic-ness of the third thread.

-In the Fifth thread, more new blood, significant progress in accumulating graphic designers, and a recession, in which the new blood has expressed their long bottled up opinions on how the mod should go. Talks on the tech tree in a forum based discussion has been put off for a bit. We should let the new (and old) idea's re-circulate, meanwhile, chat based discussion will take place at undefined periods, then re-introduced into the sixth installment of the thread.

-In the Sixth thread, believe it or not more new blood, and many of them CFC 'old-timers'. The tech tree thread should be getting a tech update, to initiate discussion about how to branch the tree itself. Lots of opinions have been rattling around, and we have gotten even more beautiful works and ideas from the unit creators\graphic designers.

-In the Seventh thread, we have developed a secure style of going about making the .bix. And that is by going tab-to-tab. For instance, we already covered the Citizen and General Settings tabs, allowing us to go in depth with the mod. Civilizations are agreed on, and soon we will start on the Civilzations tab.

-In the Eighth thread the Combat Experience is complete, and the Terrain tab is very near this goal also. Now that we wish to have a playable beta out within the month, it is very important that we come to decisions quickly and effectively. The beta itself will be somewhat hap-hazard, missing many civilopedia changes, and constantly evolving to the alpha version. If you want your vote to count, don't forget that even passing modders have their vote, then please post as quickly as possible so we can move on to the next subject. Do not be alarmed if new tabs get brought up before discussion has ended on the other. However we will make sure the vote has been tallied.

-The Ninth thread marks some changes, the release date pointing somewhere around the February month. We are down to the last three tabs in the tab system, Buildings, Units, and Civilization Advances. Some minor changes are taking place, the biggest being the additions of leaders for the civilizations, which will more than likely never be completed until the beta.

-In the tenth thread we have eliminated all tabs except but the Unit and Tech tabs. Hopefully we will go through the units tab quickly, and I can post the beta soon. Again, it will be hard to rush through these tabs, so be patient just a little longer.

FAQ
I strongly recommend the Word Pad document.

View standard Text FAQ:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/LOTM_FAQ_UNI.txt


Download WordPad RTF file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/lotm_faq.zip

-end FAQ

The near future should hold these tabs-
1.) Units
2.) Civilization Advances

After this is completed, we will be at 90% completion with the mod. The label & script texts will be finished shortly. Needless to say, after this the public beta will be put up. Civilizations are supposed to be worked on through all of this.

Resources
View the resources at this link.

Unit Lines
A word on the difference between civilizations unit lines in the RTF file. If you would like to download the Unit lists, you can do so here, they are available in two formats yet both in one .zip, the first being of better quality, the second is the lists straight forward, in standard text format.
Mrtn's Unit Lines
This next thread will offer large changes to the existing unit lines.

Overview plan- Get some free webspace.

Other CFC LotR\fantasy oreinted threads to look at, in no paticular order:
Embryodeads WH MOD
Embryodeads Fantasy Units Preview Thread II
Unit Preview Thread:LOTR
Middle Earth Map
ME: Lord of the Mods (Tech Tree)
Does anyone know the latin word for eleven?
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Last edited by Celeborn; Mar 07, 2004 at 05:06 PM.
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Old Mar 04, 2004, 07:28 PM   #2
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Undecim.
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Old Mar 04, 2004, 08:29 PM   #3
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Yey! New thread! PARTY!
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Old Mar 05, 2004, 07:02 AM   #4
[Ant]Wimp
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I totally agee with u ED, I to dont really see the point with te HPbonussus. There probably is, but to me it seems rather random now.

latin for eleven is IIRC undecim (dunno forsure)
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Old Mar 06, 2004, 06:37 AM   #5
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Hello,

The point re: Hp bonuses. you can use then for realisticity effects, as I believe ED had done in WH mod, or you can use them for balance:

I.E.
A 5-3-1 unit is quite strong.
A 4-2-1 + 1 hp is a bit weaker generally, but better than a 4-2-1

You can use them to make more closely graduated unit lines.

As far as PCH's list in the last thread, i think that the units with armored in their name got the hp bonus.

In the unit lines that I'm creating, I'm using both means. therfore, stronger units are more likely to get hp bonuses than other units, but I also se them for balance in other places.

A few other questions. Can anbody think of a place where arnor used significant numbers of cavalry? the only thing I can find is under the Gladden Fields in UT were it says that they didn't!

Re: unit creation -- to all those unit creators out there: Is it easier to make units in bulk? I.E. make a single soldier figure, then arm him with different implements, like a sword, spear, and then bow? I know about nill about the process of creating units.
What I was thinking of was the Numenorian army. these would be high use figures, as they are not only the second age army for the Numenorians, but also the 2nd and 3rd age armies for both Gondor and Arnor. I could also post pictures from the FOTR Extended Edition DVD which has some designer galleries of soldiers from the Prolouge, assuming that that is permissible.

Re: unit requests. I was thinking that our first requests would be soldiers like these, where they are useful over several civilizations and useful for other mods and even real world civ. The second would be for any UU which we don't have a decent unit for.

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Old Mar 06, 2004, 07:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Mithadan-
Re: name for Silvan Elf archer unit

I think "Elven Pengdir" sounds okay (a little odd, but sometimes the Elven tounges do sound a little odd...). I guess mrtn will hate it?

Does anybody know of an adjectival form of Lorien/Lothlorien/Lindórinand? That might work...

Until we do hit on something mutually acceptable, I suggest "Silvan Archer" as a placeholder name. I buy PCH's misgivings, but I don't think they're crippling. Sounds good to me.
I’ll buy that. Just as long as the future holds a better name.
I’ve got good hopes that a 'gamma' version will be completed by March 16th. This will pretty much be an 'art-less' (and in some cases nameless) version. For instance, the 3rd Mordor defense unit will be called "evil def 4" . This allows me to move ahead while we linger on the finer points of the mod. It will be much easier to add to it, and if something happened where I had to go inactive for a month, the engine would be there so someone could take over easily. The gamma wouldn’t be released.
Quote:
Mithadan-
Re: Mannish Defensive Line

[...] I do notice the funked-up HP bonus thing, but don't really get it. No biggie. [...]

"Pikeman" screams 14th century -- and I understand Tolkien's vision of the Third Age to roughly aproximate the time of the Norman Invasion of England. Weren't we thinking of calling our EuroSpearman a "levy" or something, anyway?
The "Pikemen" scream at you, eh? Don’t tell your psychologist! I won't argue about Pikes, as even though they were used earlier (which you didn’t deny) they do remind most everyone of the 15th Century.
Levy? That's worse than pikeman!
It certainly wouldn't work for the Easterlings\Harad. RRnut has 'militia' 'guard' and 'armored guard'. We could add Spearman and Armored Spearman after militia and use RRnut's 'armored guard' for the 4th?
Quote:
Mithadan-
Era 1: How "high" do we want our default mannish unit to be? Edain-style "highness," Easterling-style "badness," or unwashed-style "barbarianness"? I'm all for having the Edain have high-type units in the first age, but as a default I'm thinking the barbarian feel is better. In that vein may I suggest the Germanic Spearman as the 1st era graphic for a (Mannish) Warrior. (We might want to use the "mannish" prefix here so as to distinguish from other "Warriors," which mightn't be so bad, seeing how there's no "man" in "warrior." ) We could give him a higher attack, so the unit would be flagged both Attack and Defense, as befitting the unspecialised nature of such early warriors...no? (For the attack unit of this era, we could have a "hero" or something.)
That was the main idea. Have a ‘middle’ styled default unit, that can be used by the Northmen, Rohan, Easterlings, and early Isengard (which at this point is undecided). The Númenóreans themselves had a “High - Middle - Low”system. The Low obviously being their enemies.
Quote:
Mithadan-
Heck, if we want to give the Mannish civs a default unit and then allow them to research a tougher line already in Era 1, then the default defensive/offensive dude could be a "tribesman" with one of those Conan-type graphics (like Yaniv'sTribal Warrior or Kindred72's Tribal Guardian) Yaniv's sword-dude might be better for some sort of heroic "champion" unit (à la DyP), though. Speaking of which, anybody know which unit DyP v.1.x used as the champion? I liked that guy.
Yes, that is the villager's (from AoK) hunt animation. Jimmyh made a lot of “DyP” exclusive units. By my complaining, I got Kal-el to release the AoK Samurai. I don’t really want this unit, but if you do, badger Isak\Kal-el to release it. As I don’t play DyP, I don’t know if they still use it. If you do try and get it, you may as well try for the others. They used to use the second upgrade for the AoK knight for the crusader, which wasn’t a bad unit. If you could get them to get that for you (assuming they didn’t delete it) that would be great.
Let me put the art in perspective, what about this:

(warrior) c3Warrior
(swordsman) Regular Civ3 Swordsman
(medieval infantry) European Swordsman
(guerilla) Scottish Warrior

After this, we can have another unit for an upgrade, if we find it necessary.
I was thinking of the Falxman as a warrior replacement, but as Mrtn pointed out, Iron Working is a tech, therefore Yaniv’s unit is out of the question.

The Woad Raider is a Scottish UU from AoK. Age of Kings is strictly medieval, and doesn’t go that far back, so you need not worry about him being used in that manner. However, it doesn’t really fit into the game at all. You will get a lot of flak with all these AoK units. I don’t really see why he is necessary over the regular swordsman. No Pictish Warrior.

Morazab infantry! He looks alright I guess, a little to Mediterranean, but ok for Gondor\Arnor\Númenor\Easterlings\Harad. We can use the Huscarl for the other Men. The Easterlings are shaky using the Morazab unit.

RRnut- We can't have such big gaps. I think it's pretty clear that a 7 defense unit from the 4th era will loose to a 4th era unit with 11 attack. With only a 20 shield difference, and the defender having 1 less HP, it isn't worth it. I can imagine the crazy offensive battle this would turn out to be.
And what if I am slow tech wise?
The Sky may be the limit, but there are airplanes in the sky and my primitive warrior is to weak to take them down. I am willing to accept bigger gaps if necessary, nothing close to 4 points (IMO). Lets try this again:

Code:
 
1st Era Defender
Attack:		1
Defense:		2
Movement:		1
Shields:		20
Extra:		+1HPB

2nd Era Defender
Attack:		2
Defense:		4
Movement:		1
Shields:		40
Extra:		+1HPB

3rd Era Defender
Attack:		3
Defense:		6
Movement:		1
Shields:		60
Extra:		+1HPB

4th Era Defender
Attack:		4
Defense:		8
Movement:		1
Shields:		80
Extra:		+1HPB
Is this agreeable? Does this coincide with the lines you are working on?

Embryodead, the reason for me giving alternative HP bonuses was to represent the armor. Doesn’t make a lot of sense for men, so I will drop it for now. HP changes within unit lines, are (in my eyes) entirely acceptable. Not in the manner I had them (alternating between 1 and 0) but in instances where a ‘warrior’ who is armored has as much life as an armored ‘knight’.

This is where we need you the most! The ‘current’ unit lines are non-existent, varying is required for use between races. My idea is to have race differences instead of civ differences, which would leave us with far less graphics.

-RRnut 2
Correct. My vision of realism, that was the idea behind giving HP’s on armor and race. Mrtn has suggested that the more armor the unit has, the higher the defense.
It is not a good idea to work on your lines so out in the cold like this. After you finish the defender line, for instance, we can try and agree if you posted it up. You and I both have a much better chance of getting it accepted if we can agree on part of the unit line, before the whole list is worked out. It would save time and work.
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Old Mar 06, 2004, 04:23 PM   #7
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hrm.

No I don't think so PCH.

the 7 vs 11 unit will still win approx 40% of the time on open, flat land. Then if you bring in fortification and defense boni you'll have that defensive unit winning in defensive positions. Which is how it should be in Civ.

I think that the small gaps will result in a lack of a sense of progression in the mod. People would not gain much by teching. This eliminates a major element of the game that 'is' Civ, this is also part of the game that most people enjoy the most.

For example; a 2vs2 battle results in 50% wins for both sides.

A 2 vs 4 battle results in 33% wins for the '2' strength unit. Its only a 16% gain. Not much. You need major differences between unit types and civilizations in order to differentiate the style of play for each civilization. If you have a series of units that only differ in one point, then most civilizations will be identical. Results in boring play for me.

When you design a game you need to look at mathematical progressions; can't play it by how it looks on paper. The same goes for HP.

I would recommend approaching this by deciding what the strength of a race is. Then denote its disadvantedges. Before you design any stats.

For example I might decide I want the orc horde to require 3 units to take down one elven unit. That means the elves will win 3/4 of the time with identical HPs. As soon as you start messing with HPs you screw up your balance, unless you adjust the cost of the unit and strengths of the units it will oppose. Then you also have to consider that you're creating a unit that is worth far more maintenance wise than a similar unit with less HP. This is another unbalancing factor

Therefore I would make the elven unit Strength 9 and the Orc unit strength 3. I would then adjust the cost of the orcs to be 1/3 of the elves and possibly get rid of the unit maintenance for this 'cheap' line of orc units but also remove upgrade paths. Then you place in your middle of the line units and adjust according to play tests. Both units are balanced but the play style is unique for each civ. This in my mind creates far more interesting play and replayability when you have to adjust your playstyle dependent upon what race you play.
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Old Mar 06, 2004, 04:49 PM   #8
[Ant]Wimp
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I very dissagree. I say go with something like ED did in his WHmod. Research doesnt seem to be a huge deal in ME in my eyes. They were fighting with swords and bows in the first age, and so too in the last age.

So I say go with slight changes in unitsstats. So iso 2, 4, 6 and then 8 def as a defence line, Id just go with 2, 3, 4 and 5. Id hate to see even a first age noldo swordsman not having the slightest chance agains a thrid age defender.

But hey... thats me.
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Old Mar 06, 2004, 05:06 PM   #9
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No you've got a great point for this mod. But you need differences between the civilizations. Otherwise you get a case where the names have been changed but nothing else.

While your point makes great sense realism wise, you also need to consider gameplay. The tech aspect of civilization is something that plays a major part in gameplay. If you decide to neglect this part of the game you're losing a major part of the appeal of Civ.

Look at ED's Warhammer mod, technology does play a major aspect in the game. The differences between dragons and the initial units are rather severe.
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Old Mar 07, 2004, 08:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Khai-
No I don't think so PCH.

the 7 vs 11 unit will still win approx 40% of the time on open, flat land. Then if you bring in fortification and defense boni you'll have that defensive unit winning in defensive positions. Which is how it should be in Civ.
This was discussed before, and I believe WH has disproved that. The wider the gaps between units, the less the AI will make of them. In WH, as Wimp pointed out, units with 2 def. still manage to loose to units with 2 of.. I believe C3C changed this accordingly, a 2 def. unit defending will occasionally loose to a unit with 1 attack. In fact, the higher up you make the stats for defender, the worse it gets. A 7 defense unit in a metropolis will in effect have a defense of 14. Yes, of course a 11 of. unit will lose to it.

Original Defensive Bonuses
1.) Level size 1: 0
2.) Level size 2: 50
3.) Level size 3: 100
4.) Fortress: 50
5.) River: 25
6.) Fortifications: 25
7.) Citizen: 16
8.) Building: 16

Revamped Defensive Bonuses
1.) Level size 1: 10 (wallsORtower +50=60)
2.) Level size 2: 50
3.) Level size 3: 100
4.) Fortress: 75
5.) River: 40
6.) Fortifications: 30
7.) Citizen: 5
8.) Building: 5

Note the weakness of cities to artillery, which will hurry the process of destroying walls. Also note, while not listed here, cavalry has a higher retreat bonus, thanks to RRnut. These two factors I believe, can allow a fairly organized stack to take even the strongest of cities. How more “civ-like” could you get? First and foremost, (which has been mine and many others arguments) we should try and make this mod reflect Civ3. There are two ways of looking at this. Some of you look only within the Medieval ages and confine yourself to smaller stat differences. Then on the other extreme some of you try and stretch 3-4 units the entire difference of civ3. From my eyes, it’s not to hard to find the happy median.
Quote:
Khai-
I think that the small gaps will result in a lack of a sense of progression in the mod. People would not gain much by teching. This eliminates a major element of the game that 'is' Civ, this is also part of the game that most people enjoy the most.
Civ3 has somewhere around 84 techs, we have 63(?) at my last count. And it just so happens, that Mrtn is a firm believer that no ‘empty’ techs are available. Therefore nearly every one of those techs gives you a building, civ bonus, or tech quality. When modmaking you have to think beyond units. Not every tech should reveal a unit. If it did, I can’t think of anything else that could take away its civ-ness more efficiently.
Quote:
Khai-
For example; a 2vs2 battle results in 50% wins for both sides.

A 2 vs 4 battle results in 33% wins for the '2' strength unit. Its only a 16% gain. Not much. You need major differences between unit types and civilizations in order to differentiate the style of play for each civilization. If you have a series of units that only differ in one point, then most civilizations will be identical. Results in boring play for me.
Not sure I follow? 2vs2 battle? How will compiling the stats of simultaneous battles help? In a 1vs1 battle in open ground (any open ground) will result in the unit with an of. of 11 defeating the unit with a def. of 7, easily. In a 1vs1 battle in a (level2) city with a keep or fortress, the defensive unit now roughly has the same defense that the attacker has offense. An equal battle. In civ3, a pikemen defending a town has 4.5 defense. Lets say a Knight comes along. How many times has your knight beaten a pikemen in a city?
Differing stats by one point? Boring? You must really hate the warrior, spearman, pikemen, and musketman approach! Besides this, if you notice the stats I posted above, they each go up by 2 defense, not 1.
Quote:
Khai-
When you design a game you need to look at mathematical progressions; can't play it by how it looks on paper. The same goes for HP.

I would recommend approaching this by deciding what the strength of a race is. Then denote its disadvantedges. Before you design any stats.
We have decided on the different disadvantages. But shouldn’t we focus on the mathematical first? Actually, this has been decided long ago, some 7 months.

Elves- More powerful, more costly.
Men- Average, but powerful.
Orcs- Cheap, generally weaker but with certain ‘uber’ flavor units.
Dwarves- More Powerful, more costly.
Hobbits- Weaker, Cheaper. (no uber units )

This has been the general idea throughout the entire mod.

The hobbits for instance, will be the only ones able to build the equivalent of the space race. They can draft, unlike elves and dwarves. They receive more ‘civ’ specific wonders.

The Dwarves get cheaper ‘factory’ replacements, and powerful workers (without being industrious). They also have good wonders and more commercial oriented civ qualities.

The Elves can plant forests earlier than the other civs. They also have some good wonders available to them. Their units are more hardy, and they have cheaper science through government.

Orcs civs have the ability to build spies earlier. As well as the power of specific, non buildable units available from certain buildings. They have the militaristic bonus, and a ‘despotism’ like government that lends strength to WW and workers. We also have decided that we could give Orcs a 0 range bombard ability, making them more powerful in stacks. They will also be able to sacrifice units.

Men differ too much between the different civs to explain here. The Dunedain civs will be much different from the other mannish civs, likewise with Harad.
Quote:
Khai-
For example I might decide I want the orc horde to require 3 units to take down one elven unit. That means the elves will win 3/4 of the time with identical HPs. As soon as you start messing with HPs you screw up your balance, unless you adjust the cost of the unit and strengths of the units it will oppose. Then you also have to consider that you're creating a unit that is worth far more maintenance wise than a similar unit with less HP. This is another unbalancing factor
You got this impression from looking at the mannish defense lines? We are fully aware of that there are more factors than stats in this mix. Adjusting cost has been apparent from the first thread, and as we progressed both resources required for units, and unit abilities. However, units should not be given too many unit abilities. It is never a good idea to give a unit with radar, ZOC, and blitz, for instance.
Quote:
Khai-
Therefore I would make the elven unit Strength 9 and the Orc unit strength 3. I would then adjust the cost of the orcs to be 1/3 of the elves and possibly get rid of the unit maintenance for this 'cheap' line of orc units but also remove upgrade paths. Then you place in your middle of the line units and adjust according to play tests. Both units are balanced but the play style is unique for each civ. This in my mind creates far more interesting play and replayability when you have to adjust your playstyle dependent upon what race you play.
No suport for orcs? A bad idea. While this makes perfect sense ‘historically’, especially in the early part of the game, it is the most unbalancing idea we could do (especially in the early part of the game!). Theoretically, it would be very cool to have all orcs require no up-keep until the Uruk-hai in the latter ages. While units like trolls cost a default 2 gold upkeep that comes with the government.
However, seeing as how Mordor’s AI is militaristic and aggressive, you will find some 20 orcs running through your territory while you have only a spearman in each city. Far too unbalancing, methinks.
Removing the upgrade, which embryodead has done (and complained of) will unveil a glitch in the game. Mordor should not be able to build a ‘snaga’ when a ‘warrior’ is available. So we therefore make the snaga upgrade to the warrior, yet do not check the ‘upgrade unit’ option. The human player will be able to use hot-keys to get around this option, and unless I am much mistake, the AI can also get around this.

Race will matter, but not only in the units you play. Age of Mythology pretty much did what you are saying, the makers, (Ensemble Studio’s) have never heard the end of people complaining about how ‘unbalanced it is’.
People complain now about civ3's ‘cheap’ shots, or the AI ‘cheating’. Imagine what they would say if they saw something as in no unit upkeep for what is already one of the most powerful civs in the game?

Good post Khai, but I think it was a little premature. I haven’t even brought up what I think the offensive line should be, and people are saying its wrong.
Quote:
[Ant]Wimp-
I very dissagree. I say go with something like ED did in his WHmod. Research doesnt seem to be a huge deal in ME in my eyes. They were fighting with swords and bows in the first age, and so too in the last age.

So I say go with slight changes in unitsstats. So iso 2, 4, 6 and then 8 def as a defence line, Id just go with 2, 3, 4 and 5. Id hate to see even a first age noldo swordsman not having the slightest chance against a thrid age defender.
TAM and (the old) MEM did the opposite, and they were also fun to play. What is the point of zeroing in on one era\ time frame\ world, when you have only a few techs and units? What if there were mods that only allow you to play within the Middle-ages only, with no unique units, techs, or buildings? Guess what, it has been done, and it is one of the most boring things you can do!
Advancement was a big deal in Middle-earth. The Númenóreans were worshiped as gods in the Dark Ages of Middle-earth, the Edain themselves had earlier done the same with the Elves. Advancement and unit upgrades is what this mod has going for it, I’m surprised you want to take that away. Techs represent new advancements in both sorcery and progression in science and culture. Should Mordor be able to build a unit such as the Uruk-hai without studying a tech first? Should Isengard be able to build half-orcs without a civ specific technology?
You example of the Noldor warrior- The Elves will be stronger than the normal mannish units, I believe we all agree to this. If we go with simple differences in unit lines, then we will then be going in a bad direction. There will be no difference between Men and Orcs, as there is not enough room between stats. It takes much away from the regular game, to see a troll being defeated by a warrior equivalent. “just make the troll have as much defense as a 4th age defender” you may wish to say, but that would be ridiculous. Following standard civ3 is our best bet, for all the differences we will have between races, IMO.
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Old Mar 07, 2004, 10:51 AM   #11
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Sry i wasnt clear. I defenitly dont want all advances away. I agree, that would suck.

What I meant was, in Civ3, the major scientific breaktrough comes with Saltpeter, Rubber etc. In ME, this isnt the case. So my point here is that though 'early' spearmen should be weak compared to the 'last age' spearmen, a spearman is still a spearman, thus the difference stat-wise shouldnt be too great.

But dont let me stop u here, Im not saying the current unitlines are crap, there just not what I wouldve done. Dont worry about it.
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Old Mar 07, 2004, 12:25 PM   #12
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I feel this mod is very close to my heart, as its the only thread I really post in and I've been posting here since the first thread.

That said, I am therefore making no suggestions, for the sake of the mod
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Old Mar 07, 2004, 07:54 PM   #13
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Good reply PCH. I'm confident after that post that you're really looking at things closely. Looking back I might have seemed condescending, which is anything from what I meant to be. I'm really looking forward to this mod and I just wanted to add some of the mistakes I've made in the past from making mods for other games.

It looks like you're considering everything really closely, I'm pyxhed to see the rest of your unit lines.

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Old Mar 07, 2004, 07:58 PM   #14
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Oh, by 2v2 I was just starting out that paragraph saying that units with equal strengths will have a 50% chance of winning....I was just saying that to establish the base for everything else I was saying. Didn't mean simultaneous battles.
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Old Mar 08, 2004, 08:38 PM   #15
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Khai, yes I got that impression.

I see what you mean Wimp, but still disagree. Warhammer allows for more user creativity than LOTR does. We don’t have the ability to stretch the borders, and yet the path we must follow is not well defined. Embryodead has created numerous unique units for each civilization, but we must have each follow a line. I believe that unit lines coupled with only 1 point difference will be very stale, and allow no room for the few unique units we do have, not to mention the difference between stats.

We will have more than one version of the mod, as I believe you know. If you wish to make a “Wimp” version with less difference between stats, we (the collective group) would gladly include it with the LOTM zip. Likewise with RRnut. If he mods a version with his stats and sends it to us, in it goes. I haven’t started on my ‘own’ version, but once the alpha for LOTM is out, you can sure as hell bet the next version will come with a “PCH” version, that gives no food on tundra unless you irrigate it.

The only problem we have with the embryodead\RRnut difference, is that only a few have stated their opinion.

Alright, lets see if I can start a full fledged scandal this time:

Code:
1st Era Offensive					1st Era Defender
Attack:		3				Attack:		1
Defense:		2				Defense:		2
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		30				Shields:		20
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB
	
2nd Era Offensive					2nd Era Defender
Attack:		5				Attack:		2
Defense:		2				Defense:		4
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		50				Shields:		40
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB

3rd Era Offensive					3rd Era Defender
Attack:		8				Attack:		3
Defense:		4				Defense:		6
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		80				Shields:		60
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB

4th Era Offensive					4th Era Defender
Attack:		10				Attack:		4
Defense:		6				Defense:		8
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		100				Shields:		80
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB
All offensive units will require resources, while only the last two units on the defensive line will require a type of resource. Keep in mine that the upgrade cost will be lower for defenders.
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Old Mar 09, 2004, 03:23 AM   #16
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Hello,

I only have a bit of time right now so I'll respond to PCH's post to me. Yes basically, that is what it looks like. however, what I am now doing is going through each civ era by era, and giving differentiated unit lines. So far I've done numenorian civs, which were quite strong at certain times (2nd age). They have a 3-5-6-7 progression, which goes up more in the time of their prosperity and then goes up slower afterwards. Gondor, as it has the Citadel Gaurd, will get a 9 defensive unit in the 4th age. Arnor, which was reduced to a few towns and farms as the remnants of its empire, will get a 7 or 8 defense unit.

I can post what I've done if you want. Will probably work on the other men next. Want to ask one question:
What do you view the Easterlings and Southerlings as real world representations of? I was thinking;
Easterlings: People from the geographic areas of persia north into Russia.
Southrons: Arabs, Egyptians, and Africans

Does this mesh with everyone elses view?

As far as PCH's offensive units. Looks okay, was something like a framework of what I was thinking. except I was starting at 3 to 9 or so.

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Old Mar 09, 2004, 06:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlcTrv
I feel this mod is very close to my heart, as its the only thread I really post in and I've been posting here since the first thread.

That said, I am therefore making no suggestions, for the sake of the mod
Awww, c'mon!
Quote:
Originally posted by PCHighway
The only problem we have with the embryodead\RRnut difference, is that only a few have stated their opinion.
I'd love to express my opinion, but if it requires an opinion on numbers and stats or whatever, then I'm afraid I have none. There's a reason I didn't pursue higher education in maths and sciences.
Quote:
Originally posted by RRnut
Want to ask one question:
What do you view the Easterlings and Southerlings as real world representations of? I was thinking;
Easterlings: People from the geographic areas of persia north into Russia.
Southrons: Arabs, Egyptians, and Africans

Does this mesh with everyone elses view?
Southrons sound great. Nearer Haradrim would be Arabs and Egyptians, Farther Haradrim would be Nubians and Zulus (for example). Basically a North African vs. Sub-Saharan African split, in my view.

Easterlings I think would be best represented by peoples of the Central Asian Steppes, like the Huns and particularly, the Mongols. Persians just don't have that "Eastern" feel to them. They're closer to the "Arab" feel of some of the Southrons almost. Right in the middle, anyway (Middle East, huh? Ahah!)

Will be taking a closer look at your response, PCH, once I have some more time. Mozarabs and AoK villagers etc...
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Old Mar 09, 2004, 08:11 AM   #18
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Hello,

| Rant Mode Alert |

Wait, Wait, Wait!! looked a bit closer PCH's offensive unit lists. Don't really like -- let me say why.

It requires artillery to assuredly win battles on open ground. And that is something I absolutely want to avoid. I really want to nail this hard. I want, absolutely, to avoid having to use artillery to get a kill ratio of 1 to 2. Basically, kill ratios of 1 to 2 are essential (IMHO) on emperor, 1 to 3 on demigod, or 1 to 4 on deity. Please!!!! make deity winnable without field battles requiring major artillery support!

| Rant over |

Have just lost a long drawn out deity offensive with a C3C foe getting way to far ahead. Hence the rant. Am way to tired of artillery

Want to avoid major use of artillery in field battles. All my unit lines have been planned around this. I don't have the ability to comment of the unrealisticity of artillery in a ME universe tonight, but I'm sure that sometime I can.

As far as easterlings being mongols, sounds fine, as we have a decent number of units that work for those civs. However, they were IMHO a far more infantry centric civ then those were. Was why I included persians and russians. So basically we have an infantry centric middle to north but not extremely far eastern civ? Ok, so no real world representation. sounds good

As far as Mth's other statement. There's a reason why I plan to pursue a higher education in math and science, specifically engineering. Therefore I'll do a bunch of comments on numbers, since I can't do much else.

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Old Mar 09, 2004, 08:23 AM   #19
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If the AI actually knew how to use artillery, then maybe it would be okay...but since the AI don't know how to use artillery, then...
Quote:
Originally posted by RRnut
As far as easterlings being mongols, sounds fine, as we have a decent number of units that work for those civs. However, they were IMHO a far more infantry centric civ then those were. Was why I included persians and russians. So basically we have an infantry centric middle to north but not extremely far eastern civ? Ok, so no real world representation. sounds good.
Ahh, I see the problem with getting lots of foot units for Easterlings... Well, there are some out there (Dom has a new "Hun" unit that would come in handy, fer sure). I'd prefer not to use Russian units if it can be helped, as they're still European. I know it would cause an uproar, but I'd prefer using Chinese and even Japanese graphics to using Russian ones...Persians I can live with, I guess. I s'pose this is something to get ironed out as we go along, no?
Quote:
Originally posted by RRnut
As far as Mth's other statement. There's a reason why I plan to pursue a higher education in math and science, specifically engineering. Therefore I'll do a bunch of comments on numbers, since I can't do much else.
Good! Mithadan the fruity arts student will focus on graphics, and RRNut the hard-nosed engineer will focus on stats! Whatta team!

By the way... Do we really have to stick to this "offensive line" vs. "defensive line" thing, when (so I hear from folk like Kryten) most military "units" in history would be both attackers & defenders? Couldn't we instead have a "regular soldier (both A & D flags)" line vs. a "shock troops" line? (Plus, of course, missile unit lines and cavalry [fast] unit lines.) I suppose it's too late to bring this up, and I'm sure to get the hell shot out of me for the idea anyway!





Anyhow...back to my regularly scheduled programe...
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Old Mar 09, 2004, 12:16 PM   #20
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I have to agree this time with RRNut - you can't really make artillery essential to win battles, simply because the AI can't use it. For some reason, PCH tries to force more and more powerful defense (from increased improvements/fortresses boni, to stats), but for the gameplay's sake, it's no good. PCH, you already raised the defense bonuses, and now you lower the attacker/defender ratio to 5/4??

And if I get the usual argument that you should need a lot of units to siege a city - sure, but this way the best way to win will be simply don't attack, just see the AI kill off all his forces on you, then siege whats left with the support of catapults
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