RBC13G - Middle Ages - Norwegian Nightmares (Demigod)

Notes on Scenario

In this scenario, victory is possible by Conquest, Domination, or on Victory Points. The only realistic option for our game is by Victory points. VP's are awarded for tech advances, unit kills, and by returning Holy Relics to Jerusalem. Each Relic is worth 10K VP, and victory comes at 35K VP, so two returned relics are the likely requirement to win the game. We will obtain these relics by beating up the Christian civs.

Units
Our UU is the familar Berzerk (6.2.1, 70 shields, amphibious), and we also have Longships (3.2.6, 50 shields, capacity of 4). We can build more 'zerks from the start, but are required to research Seafaring to be able to build more Longships.

Other units available to us include standard C3C fare (warriors, archers, spear, swords, cats, trebuchet, horseman, MDI), a few familiar units with tweaked stats (Crusaders are 4.3.1, Pikes are 2.4.1, Swiss Mercenaries are 3.5.1, Longbows are 6.1.1), and some units unique to this scenario (Assasins 5.1.1, invisible, stealth attack; Spies, 2.2.1, ATR, detect invisible; Inquisitors, 4.1.1, ATR, detect invisible). We do not appear able to build any mounted units beyond Horsemen, so it looks like a naval/infantry game for us.

Technology
There are 3(4) eras of tech in this scenario. All civs appear to start with all Ancient Age techs, so we're really only playing 3 eras. In the Viking! (2nd) era, only HBR and Castle Building (walls, river crossings) are required technologies. On the Viking tree, the research path after the entry tech is: Seafaring (Longships) --> Smithing (Blacksmith (100-shield factory)) --> Viking Sagas (Norse Saga small wonder). The Norse Saga gives +2 movement to ships, and acts as the Heroic Epic, so we'll want that ASAP.

The 2nd era also includes the Byzantine flavor tree. The entry tech is Byzantine Ingenuity confused: where have I seen that before ... ), followed by Lost Roman Secrets (aqueducts and colosseums). The later techs on that tree allow for an Intelligence Agency small wonder and a Battlefield Medicine small wonder, as well as drafting and spies. At first glance the later techs look more like "trade-fors" than things we'd want to devote time to researching. Our inital research will be slow, until we either grow or acquire more cities. Since we'll likely be running min sci anyway, the (expensive) entry tech to the Byz tree could be tempting.

The 3rd era required techs allow for Courthouses, catapults, MDI, and the Bayeux Tapestry wonder (Sun Tzu's). The Arab and Christian flavor trees appear here. The Arab tree is noteworthy as the other opportunity to get an "aqueduct tech". The Christian tree allows Crusaders (which I think we can build), Monasteries (libraries), and Manor houses (+50% taxes). The Christian tree also contains a pair of Great Wonders.

The final tech era contains no flavors, as all techs are required and researchable by all.

Of note is that no unit has a defense >2 until the Crusader. Not until the final tech era is there a unit with a defense of 4, so Berzerks will have a long useful life.

First question for the team: We will have to research the entry tech to at least 1 non-Viking tree. The Byzantine tree has the smallest benefits to us, really only aqueducts and Colosseums, but the entry tech can be the first tech we research. Since we are likely to run min-sci on our first research, we can research the high-cost entry tech essentially for free (relative to a non-entry tech). Do we want to do this, or should we head up the Viking tree to get to Blacksmiths ASAP? Should we save our entry-tech research for the Christian or Arab trees? Do we think we should do more than 1? It may be simpler to steal the entry tech to the Christian or Arab trees.

One note to emphasize: While we cannot trade for an entry tech, we can trade for all techs that follow. So we aren't committing ourselves to researching/stealing any more than one tech per flavor.

Wonders
There are some neat Wonders in this game, especially in the 4th era. But I don't see anything we have to bend our game plan towards, besides an early Norse Saga. Although the absurdity of building the Holy Roman Empire (TOE, Pentagon, Heroic Epic) in a Viking city is quite appealing.

Terrain
In this Scenario, Forests produce 2 food and 2 shields (equivalent to a mined BG!). So cutting down forests can be really counter-productive, unless it is imperative to get a city some irrigation. Rivers allegedly give no defensive bonus. Everything else looks normal.

Governments
We start in Monarchy, and can't change. Looks like standard issue Monarchy as far as MP and unit support is concerned.

Notes on Norway!

Here are our cities.




This is a tough start. How tough? I needed to take 3 screenshots to capture our 5 cities.

So we start with 5 'zerks, 4 Longboats, 3 Kings, 2 Swords and 1 worker. Our 5 cities are scattered to the four corners of the earth. Our capital is almost off the map north, and has two dry 1st ring cities in Scandanavia. We have a city in Ireland that is bounded on all sides by Celtic cities (is 843 AD the middle of a war in real life?), and a city that won't grow beyond size 2 without a harbor in Scotland. (Have I mentioned that the tech that allows Harbors is in the 4th era? )

We don't know anyone, but in the first couple of turns our boats should make contact with the Celts, England, the Danes, Sweden, and possibly Poland. Germany and France will soon follow, so we won't lack for people to make strange faces at.

Initial thougts of a game plan: We can only expand east, as I think we run into the Swedes almost immediately if we go south. Our lands are not great for food, but we have a ton of shields. This seems to strongly favor a tight build, where we don't plan for cities to be larger than size 8-9. We will very likely have quite a few unworkable land tiles in our territory due to the lack of in-land food.

While 'zerks are strong throughout the game, they are at their strongest in the early stages. So we should plan to go to war early and often. I don't think we'll have to curtail our expansion much for this, as we should probably follow a strategy of "burn it down and get back in the boat". Seems like the British Isles are a likely first target. We can attack with 4 'zerks as soon as we build enough warriors to get the 'zerks off of MP duty.

I also figure we should send 1 Longboat into the Mediterranean to nose around and find new friends.

I am thinking of warrior-worker at our three mainland cities, as we have a lot of tiles to improve.

Roster: (edited)
T_McC
Bede
T-Hawk
Kabuki
Ville

Bede, T-Hawk and myself are GMT -5, Kabuki is GMT -8, and Ville is in Finland.

If this order doesn't put Bede in the asylum, nothing will. He's gonna get it coming and going!

So, open the Scenario and skim the Civilopedia. Then chime in with ideas of how to make sense of this mess we start with.

Bring it on!

T_McC wrote:
Initial thougts of a game plan: We can only expand east, as I think we run into the Swedes almost immediately if we go south. Our lands are not great for food, but we have a ton of shields. This seems to strongly favor a tight build, where we don't plan for cities to be larger than size 8-9. We will very likely have quite a few unworkable land tiles in our territory due to the lack of in-land food.

Note: I wouldn't go east. Lands are not much better there. Better to make an early move on Celtic lands and England with 'zerks and settlers. (There is a Relic in England) Luxuries are also hard to come by for Norway so keeping city sizes down is a good thing. Land connections run through Sweden, then the Danes, then various Euro powers to the lux rich Eastern civs, and we won't have harbors for a while.


T_McC wrote:
While 'zerks are strong throughout the game, they are at their strongest in the early stages. So we should plan to go to war early and often. I don't think we'll have to curtail our expansion much for this, as we should probably follow a strategy of "burn it down and get back in the boat". Seems like the British Isles are a likely first target. We can attack with 4 'zerks as soon as we build enough warriors to get the 'zerks off of MP duty.

Note: The Celts gotta go! Probably Ireland first then down through Scotland to England. Otherwise the Celts will put cultural and military pressure on our two Irish and Scottish towns (Two small towns but critical waystations).

T_McC wrote:
First question for the team: We will have to research the entry tech to at least 1 non-Viking tree...Do we want to do this, or should we head up the Viking tree to get to Blacksmiths ASAP? Should we save our entry-tech research for the Christian or Arab trees? Do we think we should do more than 1? It may be simpler to steal the entry tech to the Christian or Arab trees.

Note: Starting on the Viking tree will get us trade bait for our Viking neighbors and Blacksmiths give a strong multiplier to the productivity of our relatively barren mountainous lands. Thieving our way into the other tech trees is probably better than researching them.

T_McC wrote:
is 843 AD the middle of a war in real life?

Note: IIRC Norseman were almost continuously at war with the Celts and the English (not to mention the rest of the Euro nations) until the Norman Conquest in 1066 when the Normans put the hammer down, stopped the tribal wars in England and fortified the English Channel towns on both sides of the water.

Waitin' by the fjiord (can't say dock as we have no harbor)

Checking in

Just a quick note, Trondheim does start with a harbor, there are several prebuilt harbors in the game, although no one can build more until much later. IIRC, the three Norse civs start with one, Burgundy gets two (netherlands and Venice), Byz (Constantinople and maybe Athens), I think Alexandria, maybe some others, but not too many. Capturing harbor cities can be key, especially if you can get one on the continent, Burgundy is usually pretty weak (Dorestad I think is the name of it). Be careful, though, in the Celt game, they were wore down until that was their last city/last king, so when it falls, it is autorazed... Don't know about England, they may have one as well.

Good to see that Bede has played this one before, so at least we'll have a general idea what's going on.

When I said "Expand East", I was thinking we had enough room over there to get out to a tight 2nd ring. We currently have 3 core cities and I sort of had a target of 8 core cities in mind. Looking at it again, we can probably get to 12. How? There's room for 2 cities along the coast between Borre and Stavenger, and maybe as many as 3 cities on the coast between Trondheim and Stavenger. So if there are any spots east we can get a nicely sized empire.

Whether we go for the Byz tree initially depends on when we think we will need aqueducts. Trondheim is on a river, and with the grass NE irrigated can work 3 Hills + 1 Mountain (at size 6), all else is water after that. So unless I'm reading the terrain wrong, it will max out at 14 shields. Growing to size 7 will be primarily for unit support and extra gold, likely worth 5 bucks/turn to us. Trondheim also starts with a Temple, Harbor, and Marketplace. So Bede-in-Exile can be waiting by the dock for a vengeful return to his homeland.

Without irrigation (or a Harbor), Stavenger can work 3 Hills and a Fish, for 10 (pre-corruption) shields at size 5. It can't grow beyond size 5, so we don't need an aqueduct before a harbor. Hopefully we can irrigate through cities on hills in this scenario. Line of irrigation will be an important consideration in our settling.

Borre has the potential to be a monster. With the new definition of Forests, Borre can work an irrigated cow, a forest, and four hills for 17 shields at size 6. With an aqueduct and enough happiness, this city approaches 30 shields, as it has another forest and access to more hills.

Orkney is a disaster until we get more cities over there, and can pull an irrigation train that way. Dublin looks like a worker/settler/specialist site, as while it has great terrain after it is "liberated", even with a courthouse I think it will be too corrupt to make an impact.

So that analysis leads me to believe that we want to head down the Viking tech path to get to Smithing right away. Maybe not min-sci either, as we'll be in a Golden Age from an early war. I agree that the Celts are the likely first victim. So we need a boat of 'zerks, and some vet Spears to garrison Dublin and Orkney. Two in Dublin and one in Orkney sounds about right. Forgot to check if Trondhiem has Barracks or not.

Slightly more refined thoughts on the open:

Borre has plenty of shields to be a military factory. I am strongly tempted to open warrior (get the 'zerk off MP) --> Barracks --> Spears. After a few spears and some worker attention, it may be able to switch to Berzerks. Trondheim is the only place with enough food to build settlers at the start, so I'm thinking warrior/worker/granary there. Stavenger can also contribute workers to the cause, as it runs out of two-food tiles at size 2.

So replace the 'zerks and swords on MP with warriors, and boat the heavier units to Ireland. The Celts only have two kings, so if both are in coastal locations we can score a quick kill. Then Dublin can contribute to the cause with Settlers to fill Ireland. If I play 14 turns (game has 204), I might be able to set Bede up for an invasion.

Research will go minimum towards Seafaring, allocation to be re-evaluated during GA.

More notes:
Keep in mind that Kings are good for MP duty, though leaving one without a defender is not wise, though their defense value is as high as warriors. So, loading a longship for the British Isles is immediately feasible in a couple of places.

On Eastern expansion. IIRC our eastlands are home to the Finns, the Norse equivalent of the Middle Eastern Keshiks. They are seagoing, in longships, I believe, and fierce! If we encounter a Finn longship, lead them to a Euro naiton and let them pick on Burgundy or the Franks.

The Burgundians are the weak sister of Europe. They are hemmed into a sausage shaped territory by the Danes, Franks, and Poles, and later the Magyars snd have an exposed and unconnected eastern flank in Italy and lack access to most resources, especially iron.

The Celts are in a weird position. Their power base is Normandy and the British Isles represent their effort to get out from under the Carolingian kingdoms of the Franks and Burgundians. So their outposts in Britain tend to be weakly defended as their attention is concentrated to the east.

The Caliphates to the east are tough! Getting a relic into Jerusalem is a real battle. I played through this scenario as England and after cleaning the Celts out of the Isles sent everything I could to Jerusalem and tried to plant the English relic. Well, the two Caliphs cleaned my clock with their Ansars. I had three armies that would unload, attack Jerusalem and get back on the boats to heal and I never could crack the defenses at Jerusalem.

Longships are a big help to the Vikings though as long as you can avoid the Byzantine Dromons.

Long term it may work to capture a couple of relics for denial purposes (Burgundy and England, most likely, if the Danes don't get there first) then try to hack our way through the Med to Jerusalem.

@T_McC
Would sneak attacks for the purpose of capturing slaves and pillaging terrain be a violation of our Code of Conduct?

Didn't know about the Finns. Does that mean we have to actively defend our homeland? Are they a "real" minor tribe, or just barbarians with cities? (Which distinguishes them from us, how ... )

Anyway, there have to be a couple of 1st ring sites available E of Trondheim, and I have to believe it is in our best interest to settle them. It appears as though we won't be building a lot of settlers anyhow, and may just be able to focus on filling in our exisiting boundaries. Weird discussion to be having when I don't know the local map.

The Burgundians and English have relics, and hopefully they are kept in coastal cities. The big advantage we have in assaulting Jerusalem is that we never have to get off the boat. If we snag two relics, I think we head for Jerusalem as soon as we have 8-12 'zerks available. By not having to land, we never have to play defense, and can take the city by seige. (Maybe they have 10 defenders and we only win 7 battles the first round. Easy to try the next round without letting them shoot back at us.) If we get a pair of relics in the first 50 turns, the Abassids may not have Pikemen yet. If they've only got spears, we can certainly take the city.

Which leads to the next question: Are the Celts our first victim, or do we chase a relic right from the start?

Not entirely clear what you mean by "sneak-attacks". If we are doing most of our attacking by sea, we should always be able to declare war "honorably", since we can't get attacked in our boats (at least until someone else gets stacks of Galleys). If you mean just floating by and opportunistically snagging workers on the shore ... hmm, that would be fun. If we never intend to sign ROP's, that tactic doesn't hurt us, except to get other folks steamed. I don't think we should rule that out. Maybe say, must declare war honorably to attack a city, but raiding parties have carte blanche.

Others have an opinion?

A quick peek in the editor says that Jerusalem isn't coastal, so we can't just attack it with Berserks from a boat. We could attack one of its neighboring cities first and use that as a launching point and healing zone.

I like the idea of min-sci research into the Byzantine tree to start.

As for expansion, there's quite a bit of great land with forest uber-tiles eastward into Finland. I think the thing to do is expand there as quickly as possible for another 3-4 good productive cities and get a production base built up. Our three starting cities in Norway are pathetic compared to the production that can be gotten from a few more cities.

Then we can decide what to do next, chase a relic or just attack down through central Europe. I think bringing a relic to Jerusalem should be a long-term plan if at all.

As far as sneak attacks, I say honor be damned, as long as we aren't RoP-raping. We might, though, in the future, want to sign some RoPs to get over to Jerusalem...

Greetings Gentlemen. You have picked the hardest viking Civ to try and win with. I have played all the Vikings repeadetly and have found the Norwegians the most difficult. In the times that I have played the Viking Civs, the Beserk are very key, but you must watch out for the backstabbing of the other viking civs. I like to use the early bezerks to meet the other viking civs, pick one and destroy it with the help of your new ally. There is nothing like playing along and having your core hit by 10 beserks from a "neighbor". Beserks have I believe a defense bombard as well as a chance to destroy improvements when you attack a city. It might be worth considering hitting the Swedes or the Danes first, then researching from the English and the Celts with a pointy axe.
This advice comes with the caveat that I have won with all three viking races, but only on Monarch. (They were by 10,000+ VP though)
Good luck.

Originally posted by T_McC The 2nd era also includes the Byzantine flavor tree. The entry tech is Byzantine Ingenuity confused: where have I seen that before ... )

Click to expand...

Byzantine Ingenuity is also in Fall of Rome.

Is there an opening for a fifth here? Being Norwegian I figure I should se if there was an opening in my home and native land first...

@Kabuki - Sure, you can join. All the other games seem to have four already, so we can add a fifth. I'll slot you between T-Hawk and Ville.

I'll play the open tomorrow morning, so there is still time to weigh in with thoughts. Expansion before attacking sounds like a good idea, we'd rather have a GA with 10 cities than with (essentially) 3. I'll still boat some units to Ireland, so the Celts don't get any funny ideas. Might boat workers back from Ireland as well, have to see how what is really possible to build in Dublin.

I guess Ville can tell us how much we have to fear the Finns!

You dare to touch those barbarian camps...
Finns aren't big problem for us. I might even suggest a little variant: We must protect those camps j/k

Back to topic:
British Isles should be our first objective. Get the Holy Grail and possibly Burgundian one on the way to Precious Jerusalem and we will win

RBC13G - Lefsa for Everyone!

843 AD (0)
We will have war early and often, but I don't plan to start anything on my turns. We're just too small, and I can't start a war with only 4 units, especially because we'll very likely lose two cities in the process. And I don't want a glorified 2CC Golden Age. So I'll get the ball rolling on founding a few more cities. We will want units on the Byzantine tree, and Byzantine Ingenuity costs over 3X as much as Seafaring, so research at minimum on Byz. Ing. We now make +7 gpt. We'll just have to buy tech early.

Will try to get another couple of cities founded, and find a solution to the Dublin problem. Dublin to settler. When in doubt, RUN! There is a good spot (less pressured) nearby on the Isle. Swap tiles at Orkney, get an extra buck. Stays on Warrior. Both cities send their Axe-wielders out for a short stroll.

Say hello to Brennus. He has a worker for sale, but too rich for my blood. Buying it would torque our economy, and almost assuredly lead to us losing Dublin to a flip.

Stavenger set to worker. King unit explores inland. Won't let these guys go too far, just 2-3 moves each to clear up the interior fog.

Longship from Orkney meets England. Worker for sale ...

Dublin Longship heads for the Channel. This boat is the closest to the Mediterranean, and should go on an extended holiday.

King from Trondheim scales a mountain and sees furs. Not in our cultural radius, but there's more where that came from. Worker goes to irrigate grassland (weird starting game not in Despotism). Trondheim LS goes CCW around the fjiord.

Borre to Barracks. King unit up a hill to see more hills and forests. We have Quarry between Borre and Stavenger. Longship finds Dane and Swede borders, but no contact.

<Return>

IT - Danes find us. He's somehow already spent 34 gold.

846 AD (1)
Meet Poland. Fairly snappy hat.

Huh, what are the Danes doing in Brittany? That's what an American education gets you.

849 AD (2)
More exploring. King units start back to base. Have exposed almost our entire peninsula, and the only viable city sites are coastal. Meet Sweden. Meet France. Meet Castile. Meet Germany, who is already broke. I guess these guys are rushing Temples.

One LB is heading back to the Homeland, one is patrolling the North Sea, one is heading for the Mediterranean, and one is skirting the north coast of Europe and will do a sweep of the British Isles. I'll keep two LB's near our core.

852 AD (3)
Meet Burgundy. Now up to 9 contacts. MM Trondheim to get an extra buck and still complete the Warrior.

855 AD (4)
First raised hackle over our boats, from Castile.

Trondheim: Warrior --> Settler? Have to think about this one a bit more. Want to go from 5 --> 3 with the settler, I think this will be possible.

Meet the Cordovans.

858 AD (5)
Cordova complains, we just keep right on sailin'.

Rush Settler in Dublin, and set a taxman to keep city at break-even food. MM Trondheim to grow this turn, not next. Worker roads irrigated grass.

Load 'zerk in boat for transport to British Isles.

861 AD (6)
Abandon Dublin. Will move to Sheep Hill.

Pass through the Straits of Gibraltar. Appears as though the Finns have to get in Boats to come see us.

864 AD (7)
Borre: Barracks --> Spear

Contact Fatimids. We now have 11 contacts.

867 AD (8)
Stavenger: Worker --> Worker. This one will go to Borre.

Worker at Trondheim goes to mine Iron. We don't want to hook that up yet, so we can build Warriors for MP.

870 AD (9)
Found Sheep Hill. Boy, that's a lot of trade for a 1/1 city.

It is still culturally pressured, but by two cities, not four. Coastal, on a river, built on a hill. And still hopelessly corrupt. Starts on a Temple. Does put a crimp in Armagh, though.

873 AD (10)
Trondheim grows, next growth in 5, settler in 6. Sweden has a settler out and looks to plant it on their northern fringes. No real threat to our settlement pattern.

Worker gets in boat for a ride to Borre, can start working next turn.

Orkney: Warrior --> Worker. This worker is intended to be returned to our core when it finishes. I think we will want Trondheim building settlers, not workers.

We have 90 gold, and make 14 gpt.

Final Notes:
Trondheim completes a settler in 6 turns. If Bede wants to push it, Borre can also be switched to a Settler which would complete in 5 turns. Our other two cities can't grow large enough to produce settlers, and Sheep Hill will just be a waystation. If moving the city keeps it from flipping, the money will pay back in ~35 turns.

On the Diplomacy front, there are no new techs out there, and I haven't been able to catch anyone with a worker in their capital.

Also note that LBs are quite handy for getting workers from Stavenger to someplace where they are useful. Trondheim will be a candidate for a cash-assisted Granary after the mining of the Iron hill. With a Granary, it can do 6-turn settlers cycling from 5-->3, or more likely 6-->4 after the time to build the Granary.

Fine, have it Norway!

Mmm, lefse. My grandmother used to make that.

Stavenger set to worker. King unit explores inland. Won't let these guys go too far, just 2-3 moves each to clear up the interior fog.

Explore all you want with 'em. There's no reason to worry about losing the 1-1-2 king units. Nothing happens unless we also lose the 0-0-1 unit that we'll keep in our capital, and if our capital ever gets taken, we're not going to win anyway kings or no kings.

IT - Danes find us. He's somehow already spent 34 gold.

No surprise - could've cash rushed something (we did, remember ) or established an embassy with somebody.

On the research front, we do want to get up the Norse branch and get some Blacksmiths cranking sometime soon. We can trade for the Byzantine techs after the first one, of course.

Boiling the lutefisk now.

Will pick up tonight.

A picture of our western lands:



The SW red dot claims 3 forests (including a furs forest 2f/3s!). The northern red dot claims two forests and a quarry (+2 shields). I can never remember whether we get the shield bonus if we build on the quarry. I think not. The eastern red dot is coastal and allows us to claim most of the rest of the forest tiles.

The blue square isn't on fresh water, but could be very nice at size 6. (1 forest, 1 irrigated grass, 1 mined BG, 3 hills including a quarry = 16 spt before corruption.) If Borre swaps to a settler, might be a good idea to prioritize this site. Trondheims settler can then go for the SW red dot.