Great Engineers: Settle or Hurry Production?

I think you're underestimating the beakers. "Only a rep scientist" is pretty decent when it doesn't use any citizens. It adds up to over 1100 beakers in 100 turns (with academy, library, and a monastery), which of course means you are getting useful techs faster along the way, so it's really even more. Couple that with the quite significant production boost to build useful buildings/troops/wealth, and I think you are really missing out if you leave a GE lying around for too long.

Other things to consider are an AI beating you to what you were saving it for anyway, and the fact that it locks you to a particular path, when it might be necessary to change suddenly in response to DoW or something.

I've used a GE for oxford too when it was going to take to long otherwise, so as per usual it's situational for me. I probably am too quick to settle though.

Edit: Also, whether or not the capital is hammer starved is somewhat irrelevant. Adding a free mine to any city in the early/mid game is very useful!

I get what you're saying, but something like +15% production to your capital or +3% of your total research is nowhere near a game changer as popping a good wonder. If anything, calling him a free rep scientist is pushing it, there's no guarantee you even have representation. Call him a free scientist without the GPP. Using him on something like the Apostolic Palace is probably more production in the long run.

I've personally found that the AI doesn't tend to prioritise railroads, if anything, it's probably safer to have your Great Person ready to build the corporation just as you research the relevant techs. As for locking you out of the State Property pathway, you can always temporarily switch to it during early Industrial when you need production and you need it now. It's fairly predictable whether Free Market or State Property is better late game. If your empire will be spread out over multiple continents (isolate starts or Archipelago Snaky Continents), then go State Property. If your empire is contiguous, if you have good nodes to place your Forbidden Palace and Capital, then go Free Market. If you're so far ahead that your rifle/cannon push morphs into an infantry/artillery push, then stay in State Property and just win the damn game.

Rushing a wonder with a GE often gives the same effect as having a couple free artists since most wonders also generate culture. If I'm in a culture struggle for border tiles, getting an instant +10 per turn with something like The Sistine Chapel is quite nice.

GEs are useful when you pop them out with the pyramids building, get representation and go straight for literature to get the Great Library. You forget the Engineer and start popping out with Great Scientists instead. However, there are still possibilities to pop out with a GE. There was a case once where I had a bunch of priests from angkor wat and temples in a capital with 1 Artist and popped out with a GA. Just because the odds are low doesn't mean it wont happen.
Hurry production

Nick Carpathia said:

I get what you're saying, but something like +15% production to your capital or +3% of your total research is nowhere near a game changer as popping a good wonder. If anything, calling him a free rep scientist is pushing it, there's no guarantee you even have representation. Call him a free scientist without the GPP. Using him on something like the Apostolic Palace is probably more production in the long run.

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I thought we were assuming rep in this case. Also, we agree that popping a good wonder or corp is better, but disagree about how long one should leave a GE lying around for this purpose.

I've personally found that the AI doesn't tend to prioritise railroads, if anything, it's probably safer to have your Great Person ready to build the corporation just as you research the relevant techs. As for locking you out of the State Property pathway, you can always temporarily switch to it during early Industrial when you need production and you need it now. It's fairly predictable whether Free Market or State Property is better late game. If your empire will be spread out over multiple continents (isolate starts or Archipelago Snaky Continents), then go State Property. If your empire is contiguous, if you have good nodes to place your Forbidden Palace and Capital, then go Free Market. If you're so far ahead that your rifle/cannon push morphs into an infantry/artillery push, then stay in State Property and just win the damn game.

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I agree that the AI doesn't tend to prioritize rail, so I often don't have any trouble getting mining if I really want it, without keeping a GE on standby for millennia. On the other hand it is conceivable that an AI will beat you to it regardless, which means a big hammer and beaker waste. Of course having a GE already makes it safer though, so this isn't a strong point in my case.

Regarding the idea of long term plans vs versatility, I was thinking more about bee-lining a particular wonder a long way down the track, rather than future economic systems. I don't know what somewhat distant wonders you might go for with an early GE... maybe Taj, SoL, UoS, SM? Most wonders require that you stick to a non-military path or you risk losing them, so you have to be confident that you won't be waylaid by a war along the way.

babar said:

I thought we were assuming rep in this case. Also, we agree that popping a good wonder or corp is better, but disagree about how long one should leave a GE lying around for this purpose.

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Well, a settled GE is naturally +3, a scientist specialist is naturally +3. That's pretty much it.

babar said:

I agree that the AI doesn't tend to prioritize rail, so I often don't have any trouble getting mining if I really want it, without keeping a GE on standby for millennia. On the other hand it is conceivable that an AI will beat you to it regardless, which means a big hammer and beaker waste. Of course having a GE already makes it safer though, so this isn't a strong point in my case.

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Yeah, I guess saving a GE for 100 turns really is pushing it. How about, if you have no critical wonder that works with your gameplan within the next 30 or so turns, that you are the first to research the tech for and have a good production city, and you're maybe 40 or so turns away from Railroads, and Free Market fits the map, then yes, save the GE. Otherwise, burn him on something.

babar said:

Regarding the idea of long term plans vs versatility, I was thinking more about bee-lining a particular wonder a long way down the track, rather than future economic systems. I don't know what somewhat distant wonders you might go for with an early GE... maybe Taj, SoL, UoS, SM? Most wonders require that you stick to a non-military path or you risk losing them, so you have to be confident that you won't be waylaid by a war along the way.

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If anything, a GE gives you more flexibility with regards to beelining that tech. You can be behind a few hundred hammers, but the GE will instantly dump 500+ hammers into your game changing wonder. Taj, yes, SoL, yes, but I'd call UoS and SM pretty weak unless you're spiritual or you have the trifecta of the UoS, SM and AP.

What wonders are worth rushing? I have used it for Taj, Pentagon, Statue of Liberty (though I prefer to whip, emancipate this!) and Three Gorge Dam. But I usually save the first for Mining Inc.

Would you consider Notre Dame on Pangaea or continents rush worthy since the AI seem to prioritize it?

Notre Dame is pretty crappy especially if you run monarchy and not representation.

Hanging Gardens is nice even if you just whip the pop away and keep the health bonus. The more cities you have the better this wonder is.

Pyramids, Great Library, obviously.

AP is worth rushing if in a tight race.

Sistine in a culture game.

I call Great Library a situational wonder to rush. It's 350 and comes in a nice time. You have time to hook up marble and you still have some trees to chop left.

With marble, but without industrious or OR the GE is only worth 175 base- The other, and probably best argument is the snowball effect. But at the cost of a few worker turns, 3 marble boosted math-chops nets you 270 of the needed 350 hammers and you can always whip the rest if you want. So the snowball effect from GE-rushing is often minimal.

Yeah, I wouldn't GE rush the Great Lib if I had marble.

Also, a settled GE will likely shave some turns off literature, as well as helping built the GL.

I'd save the GE for another wonder, probably the Hanging Gardens.

Human building sistine chapel = almost 0 chance an AI wins culture before the 1900's even on immortal. It can definitely be nice to deny it to the AI, especially because you will trounce even guys like Zara with culture if you have a religion.

TheMeInTeam said:

Human building sistine chapel = almost 0 chance an AI wins culture before the 1900's even on immortal. It can definitely be nice to deny it to the AI, especially because you will trounce even guys like Zara with culture if you have a religion.

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That's a very good point. If I'm doing a space OCC I have to build the Sistine or I'll lose to culture. Some of the AI's really gun for culture. I've noticed it seems to be the preferred VC for Huayna Capac.

Brennus, Gandhi, Elizabeth, both Egyptians, Zara, Mansa are keen on culture too.

In a OCC it's normally good to organise a few wars between the AI.

Heh, I've started cheating on OCC by disabling culture. Seems only fair to me, since I can't go for it myself.

ParadigmShifter said:

Brennus, Gandhi, Elizabeth, both Egyptians, Zara, Mansa are keen on culture too.

In a OCC it's normally good to organise a few wars between the AI.

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There are several, but, I would have to add Pericles +Odeon, and Louis +Salon, to this list.
Saladin's Madrassa that doubles to 8 cpt can also become a cultural problem.

You've slowly researched Aesthetics, hoping to trade it around for Alphabet et al after the inevitable economic crash. Awesome, you still have a bit of surplus gold, let's 100% things thing through to Literature. Excellent, I'm the only one on this continent with Literature, let's build the Great Library! I have an awesome fish/clams/corns site, shame it's a bit low on hammers. Luckily, I chopped out the pyramids earlier. I know! Let's settle a Great Engineer here! Maybe Civfanatics was right about settling being useful especially with representation. Besides, I have marble, and my neighbour was kind enough to spread buddhism onto it and trade me Monotheism. Combine this with the Nat epic, and I could probably get 60gpp/turn into this city.

125AD The Great Library HBBIAFAL.



I've learn my lesson you jerks.

The lesson should be: don't build the GL like this in a low production city (one settled GE isn't superman!). If you have a great GP farm site with low production, I'm all for rushing the wonder.

You can build wonders surprisingly quickly in high food low hammer cities using chain whipping. Put <5 hammers on an axeman, or <10 hammers on a swordsman, do a 2pop whip, and dump 20-30 hammers of overflow onto your wonder. That's effectively 10-15 hpt as long as you have enough stable population to work your high food supertiles. Dump that onto a marble wonder alongside organised religion and/or a forge, and that's 25-37hpt. You'll need a nice happiness buffer though.