Does anyone...

justanick said:

The trade argument leaves no sound explanatation for the lack of tradeable gtp or gold.

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So if the AI trades tech and lux. (in the case of games I play at a moderate level) why do you assume the above?

It sounds contradictory.

The AI does upgrade units, buys city improvements i.e. spends gold on infrastructure and even buys units in certain cases.

Strong Reaction said:

So if the AI trades tech and lux. (in the case of games I play at a moderate level) why do you assume the above?

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Because it only explains how gold changes the owner. It does not explain how gold comes into existence and how it is removed from existence. Here we have a set of sound explanation about the later:

Strong Reaction said:

The AI does upgrade units, buys city improvements i.e. spends gold on infrastructure and even buys units in certain cases.

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AI is very eager to upgrade if gold does suffice. Upgrading is a way to reduce gold stockpiles fast. Also cashrushing urgently needed defenders is something AI is eager to do.

Two important questions are unanswered. What exactly determines how much gtp is tradeable in the sense that AI will accept giving gtp away. Also unclear is whether AI among themselves trades gtp. That may be the case, but so far i have not seen unrefutable evidence for it.

I imagine the only way to find out for sure is for someone to go searching around in the game-files, which isn't that far fetched.

They've never released all the nuts and bolts for Civ3 yet AFAIK, most of the 'concrete' advice for the game on this site is based on educated supposition if it's to do with the more hidden details, people testing and then extrapolating etc. I personally believe there's more to it than what gets suggested here, but without the full inside everything is just supposition.

A good Civ example would be when in Civ2 someone finally admitted that sometimes an AI would be 'given' a Wonder (when you were 1 turn from completion of said Wonder) as a balancing tool. This annoyed fans so much, even though many believed it was just random, that for Civ3 they promised this would never happen again and, in Civ3, if you get to 1 turn left on your Wonder then you've got it, no matter what.

That's the kind of hidden stuff you could imagine all kinds of speculation about, what's done in the name of balance and what's based on normality, etc. I personally believe there's more balancing in the game than many of the 'calculators' suspect, but there's little point trying to prove stuff like that without more definitive facts than supposition from experience.

Buttercup said:

A good Civ example would be when in Civ2 someone finally admitted that sometimes an AI would be 'given' a Wonder (when you were 1 turn from completion of said Wonder) as a balancing tool. This annoyed fans so much, even though many believed it was just random, that for Civ3 they promised this would never happen again and, in Civ3, if you get to 1 turn left on your Wonder then you've got it, no matter what.

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Grrr, I remember losing a wonder race (Civ2) with one turn left, but I didn't now It was used as a balancing tool.

Buttercup said:

It's very rare I find an AI civ with more than 0 gold in their bank account and it never ceases to amaze me when people get huge pay-offs for stuff. Never seems possible in my games. I can get lots of hundreds in the Ancient Age but for some reason I never see these 1,000+p/t deals. Is it something that's just more common on higher difficulties?

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It definitely depends on the difficulty level. In my opinion, below Emperor the AI economy simply doesn't get strong enough to generate enough cash for the human player to be able to get good deals. But I just happen to have a good example of the AI financing my budget: in my GOTM151 game (Deity level), which I finished two days ago, I was going for a space victory and kept selling my techs to the AI for hundreds of gold for almost three ages (starting in the middle ages right through to the modern ages). The final save file can be downloaded here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/index.php (click on the year).
It shows that in 1300AD I'm getting over 1200gpt and 2 luxuries from the AI, just from selling techs.

Strong Reaction said:

I play Monarch level anything harder than that is silly to me with the AI getting so much of an advantage. Deity level, I am sure you have to use game exploits and gimmicks to win, i.e. play on archipelago map to keep civs from trading technology with each other etc.

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Deity can still be won without any exploits. Sid is a different matter...

Lanzelot said:

It definitely depends on the difficulty level. In my opinion, below Emperor the AI economy simply doesn't get strong enough to generate enough cash for the human player to be able to get good deals.

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This has 2 components. First at higher difficulty level AI will sooner reach levels of economic output where it is willing to offer 100+ gtp. If at Deity it takes 120 turns at regent ~200 turns would be needed.

Second at higher levels AI has additional free unit support. Starting at emperor this is of substantial worth of 48 units for a 20 city empire.

Monarch: 4 + 1 per city
Emperor 8 + 2 per city
Demigod: 12 + 3 per city
Deity: 16 +4 per city
Sid: 24 + 8 per city

As the desired amount of military will only indirectly and thus slightly vary on difficulty setting this may create a relevant difference.

justanick said:

Second at higher levels AI has additional free unit support. Starting at emperor this is of substantial worth of 48 units for a 20 city empire.

Monarch: 4 + 1 per city
Emperor 8 + 2 per city
Demigod: 12 + 3 per city
Deity: 16 +4 per city
Sid: 24 + 8 per city

As the desired amount of military will only indirectly and thus slightly vary on difficulty setting this may create a relevant difference.

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True, but especially on Sid there is the tendency of the AI to "overbuild" on units, so that the number of free units is quickly used up and the AI "drowns" in unit support. This may counter-act the above factor?!
In my experience, Deity is the "best" level for getting large gpt-trades from the AI. On Sid not so much because
a) early on the AI is so insanely fast, that you simply don't have anything to sell them...
b) and later on, when you have finally caught up and could sell them something, the AI is now broke, because it has meanwhile reached the max number of units...
In order to get gold out of the AI on Sid, you need to forment wars between them, so that they kill off their huge stockpile of units, and you need to use the exploits documented by Spoonwood. (E.g. Lord Emsworth Trades and cutting resource trade connections.)

Lanzelot said:

True, but especially on Sid there is the tendency of the AI to "overbuild" on units, so that the number of free units is quickly used up and the AI "drowns" in unit support. This may counter-act the above factor?!

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At Sid it does. The limit of free unit support might even be reached slower than at Deity, but once it is reached AI progresses faster to the bottom.