CFC TG1: Calling All Settler, Chieftain, and Warlord Players

Yep, owning a continent this early and having such a delay would tend to make me go for a Diplo or space victory. but if this is a learning adventure, then I would lean to advice from Methos on how he would keep it a military adventure. Or from lurkers. To me, we end up in an economic/scientific race with civs we cannot see with the need to end up with a military sufficient to invade some one once we achieve Astronomy. I don't know how to do that with the economy rules of this level. Perhaps our game now has a section on learning how to excel at economy growth and development for a while.
 
I agree on at least getting some coastal exploration going. I think this is the part where a rock and a hard place comes to mind. shooting for astronomy as a priority in order to get to another continent makes our military suffer. Expanding the continent and pushing up science would be my choice to try and get a tech edge in order to balance the priorities of crossing the seas with a upgraded military.

Good point to take a look at the missing luxes so we know what to go for. I think grabbing one of the furs may be a good idea, but we may be able to do that later on with a culture bomb.
 
Sorry, I've been busy the past couple of days so haven't contributed much to the discussion. Will try and play within the next couple of hours.

I think this is the part where a rock and a hard place comes to mind. shooting for astronomy as a priority in order to get to another continent makes our military suffer.

Agree.

Expanding the continent and pushing up science would be my choice to try and get a tech edge in order to balance the priorities of crossing the seas with a upgraded military.

Correct, this is what I was hoping everyone would come to realize. Locating the other continent(s) is good, but what's the point if we do so at a disadvantage. If we start off researching techs that increase our economy and research, we can both expand our empire on this continent and make our empire more stable. This is why I suggested going Currency first, then getting a couple of the upper tree techs, then dropping back down to the science techs, before finally going back to the upper level.
 
Current buildings by puppets are:
  • Sukhothai: Circus +3 :) (3 turns)
  • Si Satchanalai: Library (15 turns)
  • Berlin: Monument (4 turns)
  • Hamburg: Walls (33 turns)

Turn 100, 375 BC: Antium rushes a settler and switches from the Colliseum to a Library. Our units move towards barb camps to remove them.

Someone built the Pyramids.

Turn 105, 250 BC: We found Cumae near the marble. That's -3 :( (1 from pop and 2 for the city), but we have a worker who will start improving the marble next turn, so that'll earn us another +5 :) in a bit. Cumae begins work on a Monument.



Hamburg desires Marble, so once its connected Hamburg will earn a WLTKD.

Turn 109, 150 BC: We learn Currency and enter the Medieval Era.

Turn 110, 125 BC: Antium completes the Library and starts work on a Colosseum. As you'll recall earlier it was going to take 11 turns, but now that Rome has completed theirs, its only going to take 8 turns. Rome completes its Colosseum and begins work on a Market. Rome is currently earning 12 :gold:/turn, so the Market is worth it IMO.

Comments:
  • I wasn't paying very close attention and our worker built a road in the wrong hex. After completion of the road that connects the two Siam cities, it would be smart to move 1 NW and pillage that road tile. No sense in spending maintainence on something we don't need.
  • We've been having issues with barb triremes, so we may want to consider rushing at least one. I'm not sure how wise this is, since we don't have any coastal resources to protect.
  • Antium is currently only earning +5 :gold:/turn, so doesn't need a Market.
  • Our puppet cities will focus on :gold:, so each puppet needs to have at minimum the same number of trading posts as the city has in population. Once we get all the puppets up to par, then we can make sure to have one additional trading post for when it grows.
  • When improving our own cities make sure we're improving tiles that we intend to use. Right now due to :food: issues, there are only a select number of tiles we can use. There's no sense in wasting worker turns on a tile that won't be used for a very long time.
  • The GG is on his way back to Rome.
  • In two turns our Marble is connected, which will jump our happiness up to around 10. We should start looking at building more cities.

There are several things we need to consider before continueing. These are items I'd like to have everyone post their thoughts and opinions on. They are...
  • Founding Cities: We need to expand our empire. I'm curious where everyone feels we should settle cities and why. I'm also curious how you intend to maintain happiness to allow us to continue to expand.
  • Research: I've been going with my tech path from this post. Any further thoughts on whether to continue down my path, or modify it? Take into consideration possible future plans and what the tech grants us.
  • Social Policies: In 6 turns we earn another social policy. Do we still want to continue down the Honor path, or do we want to jump to another tree? Recall that we're about to start expanding cities, so take that into consideration.
  • What's the best way to improve our empire? We want a strong financial economy and stability. How's the best way to do that? What can we do to make that happen?
  • Last is our future plans. What is our goal for this game?
 

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lurker's comment:
You mentioned triremes. I don't know about rushing them, but you definitely need at least two triremes ASAP. They should be hunting barbarians and gaining experience. When it comes time to invade other civs, high level naval support is incredibly valuable. (If you haven't had frigates that can move in, shoot twice, and move out of retaliation range, you don't know what you're missing).

You're many turns away from other civs. My suggestion would be use the general for a golden age. Otherwise you're paying maintenance on a useless unit for all that time. You can check your military advisor to see how long 'till the next one. Unfortunately, you only recently popped the second one, right? So you're unlikely to get a GG by farming barbarians. Still, I'd go for the gold.
 
(If you haven't had frigates that can move in, shoot twice, and move out of retaliation range, you don't know what you're missing).

That sounds interesting, thanks!

You're many turns away from other civs. My suggestion would be use the general for a golden age. Otherwise you're paying maintenance on a useless unit for all that time.

He brings up a great point, but if that's what we do, then we also need to consider when and whether we want to annex a city at the same time. For instance, Berlin is a city I've considered annexing, but if we did so, my suggestion would be to get both silver tiles improved first. Basically, improve both tiles, annex Berlin and immediately switch to a courthouse to speed up the production during the GA.

Is there other cities that you feel would be worth annexing? Or do you see no reason to annex any city? Berlin comes to mind as I'd love to have both a Mint and a Market there, yet the AI is currently building a Colloseum which will be complete in 55 turns :groan:.

This is a great time for any experienced lurkers to speak up with their suggestions and oppinions.
 
lurker's comment: I do not know if rushing trireme is a good idea, but I agree with Creepy that you need at one or two ASAP. Exploring seas you may find another CS or, if you are lucky, even next civilization.
If you haven't had frigates that can move in, shoot twice, and move out of retaliation range, you don't know what you're missing
How it is possible? I couldn't find a promotion that allows to move after attack. What are prerequisites for this promotion?

With SP I would probably switch to the patronage tree. Next war is many turns away and Patronage is quite powerful.
 
With SP I would probably switch to the patronage tree. Next war is many turns away and Patronage is quite powerful.

I was considering using our :gold: to ally the maritime CS, but we'd have to definitely have enough happiness available since our cities would grow rather quickly.
 
lurker's comment:
How it is possible? I couldn't find a promotion that allows to move after attack. What are prerequisites for this promotion?
An unlisted side benefit of the Logistics promotion is the ability to continue moving after attacking, even if you attack twice. Logistics is available as early as 4th level (100xp) following either Targeting 3 or Bombardment 3.
 
My suggestion for next city is the Tundra Hill on the coast NE of Cumae. There are a lot of resources in that area. I would be careful how fast we expand, adding cities one at a time to watch happiness levels.

The tech path seems fine by me so far.

I am unsure about Social Policy. Piety gives us a quick two happiness, but I don't see that other parts of that branch being useful to this game. Honor gives us Military Caste in two jumps and that can help with unhappiness at the cost of Garrison troops. If we are going to develop a cash flow sufficient to do business with City states, then I would pursue the Patronage branch. Since we are expanding via Settler and not puppets, I am not sure how the escalation in culture costs is going to affect us.

I'm looking at spamming monuments, libraries, coliseums and markets as basic infrastructure, tempered by maintenance expenses. Theaters will probably be involved, although we have a few candidates for Circuses and such.

I would try to manage population growth by citizen assignment to keep us from hitting happiness limits as well. We could easily grow faster than we can keep up with, to my understanding.

I see no reason to change or original goal of military victory until we actually find people and asses the situation.

If you are going to Annex Berlin in the next Golden Age, then I would suggest Sukhothai as well. It strikes me as having a good start on territory and potential to be a productive city.
 
Regarding social policy path: does anyone know if the piety -20% unhappiness (theocracy?) works on annexed cities? It says its in unoccupied cities, but I'm not sure if annexed cities count as those...if they do, I like that path, as piety is huge for happiness management.

I'm not too convinced that going down further in the honor tree will be helpful. I'd still take the double exp (if we don't have it yet). Military caste (garrison happiness) isn't going to help us much if we have to keep lots of units around.

Going to look at the current save later for good city sites.
 
As far as I know, unoccupied cities are only the cities you create with a settler.
 
Again, sorry for being late on my input. I think due to the holiday week it will be slow going for most of us.

I will take a look at the save and respond to where I think we should settle next. Methos's tech path looks ok for the next couple of turns, but there is not much teching on the military side. I'm unsure of what units we will need at the time we want to continue the conquering across the waters. I think Liberty would be an option for the SP since our need to start the expansion.

I do have a general question regarding citizen allocation and the library's, universities, etc. When a science building is complete is it common to immediately allocate a citizen(s) into it? When I play I tend to juggle the cities overall situation before adding a citizen to a building, science or otherwise. I then often forget and don't end up allocating citizens until my overall situation is positive.
 
As far as I know, unoccupied cities are only the cities you create with a settler.

Puppet States and Annexed Cities with a Courthouse count as unoccupied too.
Occupied Cities are just Annexed Cities without a Courthouse.
That's judging from the tooltip in my games as well as the policy effects there.
 
Again, sorry for being late on my input. I think due to the holiday week it will be slow going for most of us.

I agree. I'm not sure how many of us our from the US, but I don't expect much activity this week due to the US Thanksgiving holiday.

I do have a general question regarding citizen allocation and the library's, universities, etc. When a science building is complete is it common to immediately allocate a citizen(s) into it? When I play I tend to juggle the cities overall situation before adding a citizen to a building, science or otherwise. I then often forget and don't end up allocating citizens until my overall situation is positive.

Personally upon starting a new tech I like to look how how many beakers its going to take and how many we research each turn. In Civ V (at least for now), there is no beaker overflow, so if I can save overflow and shave off a turn of research, then I'll allocate a scientist or more into the library.
 
Hm, my lurker tag doesn't seem to be appearing. Lurker.

I'm not anywhere near as experienced as Methos but I do have a fresh pair of eyes and sometimes that can be helpful.

Social Policy:
If you're planning a domination win or simply more warfare, you'll want to grab Discipline from the Honor policy tree. This is a powerful combat bonus.

Great General:
If you really want a golden age then OK, but burning the GG simply to avoid maintenance seems somewhat counterintuitive. Are you also planning on deleting all your other military? What if you are attacked from overseas? Simply put, if the unit cost maintenance (whatever it is, since this game still won't tell us) from a single GG is too much for you to handle, you have economy problems a golden age is not going to help with. This does not appear to be the case. Remember that your military strength affects diplo relations when you meet new AI, as well.
A golden age will be far more useful, anyways, if you are in a wonder race, or perhaps seeking to build gold quickly in order to upgrade a lot of units in the field. Neither of these is the case right now.

Happiness:
Don't worry about it. Happiness really isn't the limiting factor we all once thought it was in this game. Since you plan to expand to cover your continent, you'll get all those luxuries. (Consider settling ON the resources to save worker turns.) And colosseums are relatively easy to produce. You should not have real happiness problems as long as you manage population growth. You should only let your production cities grow; the remainder only need enough population to run a specialist or two. If you want to work more non-production tiles, it's more cost effective to found a new city than to grow an existing one. Especially since you can easily get a Library in every new city now that you have one in Rome.

Expansion:
You may want to wait on expanding for a while. If you build a library in Cumae you can then build the National College, and if you tech Philosophy you'll be able to build National Epic as well. These are pretty decent national wonders which are far easier to build now, when you only have a few cities, than they will be when you have a large empire. (The College requires you to have a library in every non-puppet city; the Epic requires a monument.)

Puppets:
Why would you annex anything? Puppets tend to build happiness, culture, and commerce buildings, all of which you want anyways. You can also effectively limit their production by building trading posts on any high-production tiles. They will just make gold for you. I wouldn't annex anything until much, much, much later in the game, when some of them may become production powerhouses. At this stage, you have empty land and settlers are far cheaper than courthouses. The only reason I would annex a puppet at this point is if one of them is a specialist paradise.

City States:
Since you are effectively isolated for the time being, thus precluding the old "trade luxuries for gold" gimmick, it is not going to be possible for you to ally every city state on your continent for a long time. You happen to have 2 pairs of city states who hate each other: Sidon hates Tyre and Bucharest hates Rio de Janeiro. Tyre and Rio both happen to be Hostile. Hm, so I can capture more land, win some more promotions for your army, and ally two city states all at the same time, you say?
If you're not going to take out Rio, I'd leave those neighboring Barb encampments alone until you get a mission to destroy them.

Triremes:
Creepy Old Man has a great idea I plan to try, but it doesn't make sense for this game. With the only sea units you'll be fighting barb triremes, you're unlikely to build up enough promotions to create the uber-frigates Creepy talks about. Since you really don't need triremes (you can easily kill the barbs by firing from land) this seems like a waste of production/gold.

Tech:
I don't think your tech path really matters at this stage, but you have 2 scientist slots going to waste in Rome. You should definitely be running some scientists to go for a Great Scientist, since you aren't able to take advantage of Research Agreements at this time.

Roads:
What exactly are is this doing for you? They're not militarily useful, you're a long ways away from the Meritocracy policy, and the trade routes are not going to pay you enough to cover the cost of such an extensive road. If I were you I would pillage all the road tiles on your continent, except that your workers have better things to do right now.

P.S. Somebody mentioned buying a settler. Um, don't buy settlers. They are one of the cheapest units in the game to produce. Save your money for something worthwhile. You can build a Settler in 7 turns. Buying one would cost you 440g. At your income right now it would take you 37 turns to make that money back. Not a good trade-off.
 
That's a lot of great input, cheers ChevalierdeJstn.

Despite it being billed as a "beginner thread", and I sort of consider myself an intermediate player, I'm learning more from following this thread than from many others on the forums, simply because you folks take the time to discuss EVERYTHING. It's really of enormous benefit to see you go through every aspect in such detail. If you play this one out, whether you win or lose this thread should definitely get a gold star for posterity.
 
Hey all, sorry I was absent for a while! Finally looked at the save and marked some positions I think would be good for future cities. I also tried to give the spots some priority (1: soon, 2: intermediate, 3: later):

North:


The three wine city is nice for culture with a monastery, but its otherwise not too great. Only reason to get this early would be so Sidon cannot claim too many of the river tiles. The coastal city is another nice to have spot, but also not overwhelming. Both Prio 3 for me.

West:


Personally, I would put the city on the coast first, because it can grab more resources. The city by the river is nice for commerce and grabs some more iron, but I see it more as a filler. Both cities are Prio 2 for me.

South:


The river spot will make a nice production city I think, plus get us a good amount of commerce too. One of the best free spots on the map (Prio: 1).
The coastal spot can be put later (Prio: 3).

Center:


I'd put the city south of Mt. Fuji first, so we can connect the south of our empire to the north. That city will be nice for commerce, with enough food to be self sustained, and lots of grassland to put trading posts on. (Prio: 1)
The city north of Hamburg on the coast can be put later to claim the silver (Prio: 3).

East:


Definitely need to scout the coast first to see if there's perhaps more fish around there, in which case we might want to reconsider that spot. For now Prio 3, although it will make a nice production city...but first we should get our economy on track.

Tech:


I'd like to see us go for engineering (lumbermills) and metal casting (workshops) so we can improve our production base. After that I would put high priority on pushing for astronomy. Civil service would be nice too, but I think we can set up some science specialists and bulb the tech with a GS.
 
Hm, my lurker tag doesn't seem to be appearing. Lurker.

I'm not anywhere near as experienced as Methos but I do have a fresh pair of eyes and sometimes that can be helpful.



Roads:
What exactly are is this doing for you? They're not militarily useful, you're a long ways away from the Meritocracy policy, and the trade routes are not going to pay you enough to cover the cost of such an extensive road. If I were you I would pillage all the road tiles on your continent, except that your workers have better things to do right now.

This had caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond to it but had let that slip. Someone keep me accurate on this, please.

I don't know the exact formula for return on investment. In the spirit of Civ 5 and not knowing what you are doing I may not want to know. However, as a rule of thumb I expect that as long as the city has more population than tiles it took to road up to them, you are making some minimum profit, which will then grow as the city grows. I, too would have not built so many roads, but it was the team's decision and seems to be working out. That has become a learning experience for me.
 
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