CFC TG1: Calling All Settler, Chieftain, and Warlord Players

eris said:

163
Rome finishes Walls. Start Watermill. (I still think the Monastary is a good investment. I hope Watermills are useful enough that we build them in other cities to get the UA bonus.)

I think they are. A monastery would've been great too, just go ahead next time and build the building you think is most useful. Its your turnset after all

167
Antium finishes Circus. Yes, I should have done the Market in Cumae and the Ballista here. I don't see anything I want to build immediately except maybe a Temple. If two gold for 7 culture isn't worth it in Rome, then 2 gold for 3 culture can't be a priority in Antium. I have an idea that may get me in trouble. I want to save Rome to build regular buildings to give the UA bonus to other cities. So, I am going to start the National College in Antium. To my understanding it doesn't matter much where you put the National College as long as you get the science multipliers in that city. It will take longer, but it will leave Rome free to build other things and keep Antium busy while we are exploring/growing. Start National College in Antium.

It doesn't matter where the NC college is built, as long as that city has a good science output. Meaning, it must be a large city, so Rome (which will always get more food e.g. from maritimes, watermill, granary) would've been the best candidate. Antium still can be a good NC city, but we need to focus it on growth. Group input please!

169
Meet Darius. I don't know how you people feel about Open Borders. I open them up with everybody when I meet them and then figure out the politics to see whom I want to continue being friendly with. Given that it is only a another turn to complete my reign, I will leave that to the group. He was amenable to a straight across the board Research Agreement, so I took him up on that. Bought RA for 250 gold.

Did you sell the open borders, or just exchange them? Its usually a good way to get some quick 50g or so if you sell the open borders Anyway, if you got their open borders too then our archer-scout needs to head over there quickly and start exploring.
The research agreement is a good idea. We still need some 12 turns to tech chivalry, and another 12 if we want steel too. Then we need to ferry our army over. So IF we want to attack Darius, the timing with the RA should be fine.

Click to expand...

Good start on exploration. Now let the map-gathering start

lurker's comment: I usually sell open borders for 50gp, especially if I met civ from another continent. While exploring with caravels I don't need open borders and 50gp is always welcome.

'Aight. I'll keep an eye on this topic and throw in my two cents of thoughts every now and then I guess the point is discussing what you'll do next and reading the various opinions is what you learn from. The game is just to create the situations.

Some pictures for the last set of turns. If I were more clever about the forum attachment management, I would paste these in with the text. This will have to do.

The Horseman thinking he is being clever hiding behind a hill from the barb encampment.

Our mighty empire, as well as I can fit it on my display. I would love to figure out how to show a meaningful picture of the whole world, but this is what I could do in one screen.

Our empire in strategic view, with a few more tiles available for display.

The Horsman finding out he wasn't quite so clever after all.

For any other Civ, I would agree with you on the placement of the National College in a second. I find that because I am doing this with an audience, so to speak, that I am thinking more about what I am doing, and part of that is exploring what I would do different given that this is Rome. It doesn't fit as well with my usual lower-level use-the-capitol-to-build-as-many-wonders-as-you-can approach.

Thanks for the validation on the Monastary. It's nice to know the idea wasn't completely insane.

I have never ever thought to sell open borders. I assume you are talking about a cash for a one way open borders deal. Interesting. I have given one way open borders as part of deals, but never thought to use it as a cash grab. The trade off is whether it would be worth it to have permission to wander around their country side looking for military value clues and natural wonders.

Aldor, you have the next turn set. I would be interested in your general approach to exploring and early diplomacy. Are we looking to explore land? Are we looking for luxury deals? Are we looking to buy any City States? In the present situation as we see it so far, I would be looking to emphasize Research Agreements. I would be interested in doing some land exploring. Perhaps we open borders both ways with one Civ for exploration purposes. If we find an isolated island with Ruins or Barb camps, do we send a unit to go harvest those things?

How interested in expanding are we? Do we want a city on Lhasa Island for instance?

On a different subject, how is our worker management? Is there an emphasis we want to increase or decrease in terms of mines, trading posts, and farms? It looks okay to me so far, but it is not a subject I feel at all authoritative about.

And welcome Birbrain. Trust me, if I can rise above my usual lazy and clumsy play and do this, then so can you. And, it is amazingly fun!

It is truly foolish to believe you can outmatch me in lazyness Alot of people declare such but at least half of them don't even come close...

But yeah, it'll likely be a few days before I start putting in my two cents, afterall, I have no clue of your current situation other than that it's early rennaissance I reckon

My plans for the next turnset, after looking at the save:

Contacts
Darius makes for an excellent trading partner: he's friendly, so we can probably do a 3 vs. 3 luxury trade with him for immediate 15 happiness! He also doesn't appear to be the top dog, so perhaps its a good idea to let him live and see who else we can go for first!

Micro management
I'm not much of a micromanager, but there's some things I will change right away:
- Cumae has locked a citizen on a lumbermill which could work a horse instead (+1 prod)
- Antium can work Mt. Fuji for +5 culture, shaving off one turn to the next policy

It pays to look for such things occasionally Also I would like to explain why I love granaries/watermills so much: For example Rome, when switched to production focus, will create 18 instead of 13 hammers. The food surplus goes down to 1 (from 5) however. Once we have the watermill, we can leave Rome in production focus, and it will produce 19 hammers and 3 food surplus. Similar for our other cities and granaries. +Food simply means your cities can be much more productive while still growing.

Next city builds
- Cumae: fishing boat (for Hamburg), Market (if we trade with Darius, we can put off the circus here for a while)
- Ravenna, Neapolis: continue collosseum, market (for national wonders)
- Rome / Antium: I'm REALLY torn. Currently Rome produces 16 beakers/turn, while Antium produces 9/turn. With the NC that would be 31 for Rome, and 21 for Antium. And Rome will continue to grow faster, thus gaining beakers more quickly! Plus with production focus it can build the NC in 16 turns, compared to 23 turns for Antium. Turn advantage! On the other hand, Rome could start on a university, which will be useful for all cities eventually (we REALLY want that science! If anything, I'll make it my goal to push up our science to new hights this turnset

Policies
I think I'll pick discipline (from honor), after that we can skip the rest of that tree. Personally I'd like to go down the commerce tree then, but we also have the great Freedom and Rationalism trees available now, so its up to the group to decide where to go next!

Worker management
Not much to do here, looks good for the most part. Cumae needs another farm I think, it doesn't have enough food compared to its productive tiles currently. And in our puppet cities I'll see that the hills get trade posts first (they are all good on food, so should pick those hills for best production/gold).

Military
I'll upgrade our horses to knights once chivalry is in.

Techs
I'm not sure wether its best to immediately start with banking after chivalry. It certainly will be good if we can start the next war as soon as possible, and for that we could use Steel first. On the other hand, if we focus on military techs it might become hard to get banking at any point, and its a great tech to have. So, should I get it first, and we continue to explore peacefully for this and probably the next turnset before we can upgrade our legions? Or delay it and hope that maybe we get it from our research agreement?


Uff. This was way more than I wanted to write. I'll wait a bit to give you all time to comment first.

I like the trade with Darius. I would worry a bit that we use up our trading options with people we haven't met yet, but happiness is happiness. Go for it.

I like a University for Rome for science. (But don't forget the Monastary option!!)

I have to say I have not been impressed with the Commerce social policies. I do like Rationalism for science.

I like the citizen management. I tried to look at that, but didn't catch what you did.

I vote for banking as the next tech so we can see what is happening with our exploration before commiting to the military option.

Here's the turn report.

170
- we meet America, who appear friendly. They also offer gold for trading.
- almost in the same moment, we meet Japan. They appear desperate..a look at the trade screen confirms it: they only have one city, looks like they're fighting for survival!
- we accept open borders with both parties, and send out our archer to explore their lands.
- the legion north of Tyre destroys the barb archers. Our knight on Lhasa island decides for a valiant retreat and flees into the water instead of facing the pikeman..
- I decide to switch the production in Antium from the national college to a ballista. Sorry eris, I hope you can forgive me! I really think Rome will be the better city for it, and it can produce it faster too.

171
- Trade silver and wine for Darius' gems and cotton. I also trade silver for Washington's gold. We're up to 20 happiness! Now to get some growth going to make use of all this..
- Our eastern caravel meets Ragusa (maritime/neutral), and we gain 30g.

In between the turns:
- Washington declares war vs. Darius

172
- we discover Chivalry, and start on Banking.
- our eastern caravel meets Brussel (cultured/hostile) for 30g, and Budapest (Militaristic/hostile) for 30g
- Rome finishes the watermill and starts on the NC (14 turns), Cumae starts on a work boat (for Hamburg)

173
- I order our stable masters to give out the new armor for our horsemen (upgrade 3 horsemen to knights)
- our western caravel meets Songhai. Askia seems friendly. Trade some silver for his silk. 24 happy now!
- we can choose a policy. I pick discipline from the honor tree.

174
- we meet Hanoi (militaristic/friendly), for 15g

175
- we meet Monaco (cultured/neutral) for 15g
- we soundly destroy a barb camp near Cumae, making use of our new combat bonus for adjacent units:



176
- Cumae finishes the work boat, and starts on a market

177
- we meet the Aztec people. This Monty guy doesn't seem so friendly. His empire consists of four cities, and he has nothing to trade. We pretend friendship and continue our way..for now
- we find the Rock of Gibraltar
- Neapolis finishes the collosseum and starts on a market

178
- our archer-scout arrives in Persian lands and starts to look around.
- our knight on Lhasa island has healed out, and heads back toward the barb camp...only to find a captured worker enroute to it! He promptly frees it..again a worker of Lhasa. Can't these guys watch their people more carefully? Anyway, this repeated act of help gives us massive influence there!

In between turns:
- A rumor arrives that a state called Warsaw has been conquered.

179
- we meet Almaty (militaristic/irrational) for 15g
- our knight finally destroys the barb camp on Lhasa island. He heads back toward Lhasa to heal in friendly territory.

180
- Banking finished, we continue on towards Metal Casting.

181
- we find the former city state Warsaw. America has conquered it.

182
- Antium finishes the ballista, and starts on a granary
- we take a research agreement with Washington, for 250g. I think its a good offer, I hope none of you will tell me America was the logical first target for us!

In between turns:
- Angkor Wat has been finished (turns out by the aztecs).

183
- Metal Casting discovered! Steel is sooooo close

The last two turns nothing eventful happens, just more exploration.


Screenshots of the world:




Its hard to see, but the remains of Japan is between Atlanta and Gordium.




Here's the score and demographics:




These confirm that Washington and Darius are our strongest competitors (don't be fooled by Darius' gold and production, he's in a golden age). Askia doesn't look that powerful yet, but he has a good amount of cities too, and will become strong if we let him!

Oda Nobunaga is really fighting for survival, and Monty seems to have been dawdling around with four cities.


Analysis of the situation
We have two main competitors (America and Persia). Another (Songhai) has good potential. Not apparent from the screenshots is that there are a LOT of wars going on right now over there. Pretty much all civs are at war with one or more of the others. Only Monty is not involved in any conflict right now. He's friend with Japan, which looks like it is on the verge of being destroyed. So this might make Monty an ideal first target for us. Unless some more experienced warmonger steps in and says we should rather go for the strong first, before they become even more dangerous (or rather, while they're busy somewhere else). Opinions?

Economically, we are set up very well. We have plenty of happiness, to be used for expanding via conquest. We will have Steel in three turns, and have enough cash to upgrade our legions to longswordmen. Then we can start with our army towards...whoever BUT: we might want to build some home guard first. We have repeatedly seen barb camps pop up on our continent. No good idea to send our army away and then get harrassed by bandits!

Techwise, I'd like to go for more military techs next. We're close to gunpowder and then cannons, which will help a lot taking down city defenses! But its up to the next emperor to decide for the best path.

I would suggest the following steps for the next turnset:
- build some home defenders (probably knights)
- with our current happiness, we can delay the circus maximus in Rome, and instead build some growth/science/culture buildings there so the other cities get the UA benefit. National treasury will also be available soon.
- we are not making use of our happiness, and persia has passed us on population. Its probably time to ally with a maritime city state (but keep in mind you need gold to upgrade our legions). Ragusa might be good.
- start moving our army over to the other continent. Locate a good place to land (but make sure its not too close to anyone, so you don't get the "move your army or declare war" message).

Savegame attached.

.... How did you guys get so lucky as to plant 5 other players on an equally large continent as your own, with only yourselves on the other one!
How! 0.0 Did you already conquer someone?

We took out Germany with an early horse rush. That was the first lesson for those who did not do early combat, as is true with many beginning or learning players. (such as myself)(learning, that is.) We had the advantage of doing that before the horse units got changed in a patch.

Interesting turnset. I assume the reports of war and friendships are from the IBT messages and not some screen I have yet to find.

I like your analysis. The only point I would differ on is tech, and I would do Banking before pushing the military techs. I'm thinking that we start building military and be able to upgrade. Then there is the philosphy that more money is always good.

I assume we are still exploring and evaluating before we pick our next target. I also assume we need to discuss if we are still war mongering. In my usual style of play at lower levels, I would be more than happy to expand, consolidate, and go for Diplo victory. I have no idea how well we would be set up for that at this level. It looks pretty good, but I am not sure.

I am daunted by all those cities out there. I assume the general tactic would be to decide who is either weakest or most convenient by whatever measures one would use and then plan for invasion. You mention using an open space away from their borders to congregate while gathering troops into invasion formation. I haven't looked at the save, but from the screenshot, it looks like most of the space is already taken. In the little overseas invading I have done I have used the ocean as a gathering place, sending over a goodly escort fleet to take out ships when I first declare war, parking as many units on their coast as posssible. (D-Day style is probably the best description.), and then bashing as much as possible, especially naval bombardment. I really like pelting people with big rocks from across the water. The idea is to take one city as a staging area for all other embarked units. I am really open to discussion on military strategy and tactics.

If Sindri Pink is still around, please let us know that you can pick up the save. It is your turn to help spread Roman glory across this particular world.

I'll take a look at it tomorrow and if there aren't any questions as to what I should do I'll probably play and report during the day

eris said:

Interesting turnset. I assume the reports of war and friendships are from the IBT messages and not some screen I have yet to find.

I like your analysis. The only point I would differ on is tech, and I would do Banking before pushing the military techs. I'm thinking that we start building military and be able to upgrade. Then there is the philosphy that more money is always good.

I assume we are still exploring and evaluating before we pick our next target. I also assume we need to discuss if we are still war mongering. In my usual style of play at lower levels, I would be more than happy to expand, consolidate, and go for Diplo victory. I have no idea how well we would be set up for that at this level. It looks pretty good, but I am not sure.

I am daunted by all those cities out there. I assume the general tactic would be to decide who is either weakest or most convenient by whatever measures one would use and then plan for invasion. You mention using an open space away from their borders to congregate while gathering troops into invasion formation. I haven't looked at the save, but from the screenshot, it looks like most of the space is already taken. In the little overseas invading I have done I have used the ocean as a gathering place, sending over a goodly escort fleet to take out ships when I first declare war, parking as many units on their coast as posssible. (D-Day style is probably the best description.), and then bashing as much as possible, especially naval bombardment. I really like pelting people with big rocks from across the water. The idea is to take one city as a staging area for all other embarked units. I am really open to discussion on military strategy and tactics.

If Sindri Pink is still around, please let us know that you can pick up the save. It is your turn to help spread Roman glory across this particular world.

Click to expand...

Take a look at the diplomacy overview, and the tab global politics there. Currently Persia is the bad guy, and at war with pretty much everyone. Doesn't matter to us really, since trading or research agreements do not lower our standing with others (as far as I know).

As to techs: we finished banking (on turn 180 But now it really will be hard to decide what to build in Rome next. We still have to build lighthouse, granary, university, bank...all of which are useful. Not even speaking of cultural buildings. On the other hand, if we want to continue with wars, we might as well dedicate ourselves to that and go for barracks next, and then only build cash/science buildings and units.

I agree that we should continue to explore until we have a good picture of the other continent. Our archer-scout is in persia right now, and we have open borders with persia and america until turn 200 or so. Make good use of that time! It might also be worth it to send another scouting unit to the aztec/songhai lands, to speed up the scouting.

As for a good plan on how to continue: I'm not sure. Like you, I would personally settle for consolidation and peaceful buildup, but as this is a training game its perhaps a good idea to choose another path. And tactics? We would most likely be successful in conquering the Aztecs. I've only seen archers in their city...I doubt they can field lots of stronger units yet. But on the other hand again, the big dogs are at war with each other...it might be the perfect time to intervene while they're busy elsewhere! And remember, we don't need to conquer all cities, only the capitals to win domination.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to ally with Almaty (between aztec and songhai territory). That way we gain a place to land our troops (still need to be careful to avoid the "remove or declare war message" in case aztecs or the others have a unit close). Or as you say, we can just sail our army close to their borders (but stay out of sight) and then invade from the sea.

A new screen to look at! I will have to do so when I get back to the game computer. I am excited at the info and mildly embarrased I hadn't found it already.

I would vote for bank then barracks. But, I have seen discussions that state the barracks is not all that worthwhile. For the hammer cost and the maintenance you get one promotion. At the lower levels I have been playing, I find this to be true. I am assuming that we feel different for this game.

I remember seeing Almaty close to the Aztecs and thinking about having Almaty as ally. My thought was about troops supplied by Almaty would be closer to the Aztecs than we are. Using it as a staging area sounds interesting.

186
- We discover Old Faithful.
- Steel! => Physics
- National College in Rome => Workshop
- Market in Cumae => Knight

187
- Knights take out barb camp S of Ravenna

188
- Neapolis +1

189
- Open Borders with Askia

190
- Physics! => Machinery

191
- Nothing

192
- Ravenna
- Workshop in Rome => University

193
- Market in Neapolis => Workshop
- Granary in Antium => Workshop

194
- Machinery! => Navigation

195
- Darius I completes Machu Pichu + peace with Askia

196
- Declaration of Friendship with Askia
- Darius I wipes out Japan

197
- Nothing

198
- Ravenna +1
- Something built in Ravenna (forgot to write down what) => Watermill
- Policy! => Naval Tradition

199
- Montezuma enters renaissance era
- Declaration of Friendship wth Washington
- University in Rome => Barracks

200
- Research Agreement with Darius I complete => Acoustics

Notes

A list of the worlds most well fed people shows us in the lead (5,5) with Darius I in second (3,3) and Washington in third (2.5).

National Treasury is now available for construction.

Sometime during play a Great Merchant appeared. I sent it towards the City State N of America (is it Stockholm?) and it is now right outside the city, ready to carry out his trade mission.

I like the Workshop in Rome. I think that was very smart.

By the way, we need the save file.

Sindri Pink said:

190
- Physics! => Machinery

We can upgrade our ballistas to trebuchets now!

192
- Ravenna
- Workshop in Rome => University

193
- Market in Neapolis => Workshop
- Granary in Antium => Workshop

Workshops are a good investment, but I'm not sure if we get our civ bonus for building them here if it isn't completed in Rome yet

194
- Machinery! => Navigation

I was thinking about going for gunpowder->cannons next, but navigation is great too. It will allow us to upgrade our triremes to frigates, which can really help with bombardment. We need some more iron then however to upgrade!

196
- Declaration of Friendship with Askia
- Darius I wipes out Japan

One less capital for us to conquer! I'm not sure about the value of the DOF however. It means we will be evil backstabbers now if we declare war, and our trades with other civs will be more expensive or impossible. I'd have preferred to stay neutral.

198
- Ravenna +1
- Something built in Ravenna (forgot to write down what) => Watermill
- Policy! => Naval Tradition

At first I was a bit dubious about that policy. But in the interest of moving our army over the ocean, it will probably be ok. If we build/get more coastal cities, the following policy (+3 prod in all coastal cities) is awesome too.

199
- Montezuma enters renaissance era
- Declaration of Friendship wth Washington
- University in Rome => Barracks

This DOF makes a bit more sense, especially if we want to delay fighting Washington until last. But again, I'd probably stayed neutral here.

200
- Research Agreement with Darius I complete => Acoustics

Not a great nor a bad result. With our current cash we might renew this, we will probably have enough time to complete it if we go for Monty and Askia first.

Notes
National Treasury is now available for construction.

This should be built as quickly as possible (in Rome), along with Circus Maximus (which can be built anywhere). After that, we're free to expand again via settlers/annex.

Sometime during play a Great Merchant appeared. I sent it towards the City State N of America (is it Stockholm?) and it is now right outside the city, ready to carry out his trade mission.

Good move, Stockholm would be excellent to have as ally. It will also give us the 2 iron we need to upgrade our triremes!

Click to expand...

We really need to get going now. From the screens, it looks like Askia has built at least two new cities already. Not sure about the others. We have knights, longswordmen and crossbowmen, as well as frigates (soon) available. That should be enough to go after a first target. IMO its probably best to go after Monty first, he seems weakest. We might as well make use of that DOF with Askia, he shouldn't backstab us while we fight there

eris said:

I like the Workshop in Rome. I think that was very smart.

By the way, we need the save file.

Click to expand...

Sorry! I knew I forgot something

I've got the save. Haven't had a chance to look. Any advice, suggestions, or coaching you have to offer? I won't guarantee to follow it, but I will listen.