SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

The question is, do barb warriors approach our cultural borders or not? If not, we can wait to move to teh forest to see if that barb goes NW toward the wheat. Otherwise, we should move to the forest this turn, I think, to prevent that barb warrior from grabbing that forest and pushing us backwards a few turns.

We're still at 24 cities worldwide by my calcs. Still no barb cities. Toku still doesn't have BW. Hammy now has Sailing, can but won't trade resources to us, and has clams and stone. For some odd reason, Osaka just stopped building something (granary?) at 33h and started something completely new at 3hpt, which means it's not a worker or settler.

The barb warrior won't approach our border. We can still give it the chance to bugger off to the wheat. 10% fortify on the forest is a jump point, combat-wise.

As soon as we hit 30 cities, the Archer from the south will start to approach, so we definitely haven't.
 
Question:

Between moves... who moves first ai Toku or ai Barb?

If barb moves first we can move warrior w/ toku's archer as long as the archer moves sw.
If barb attacks it would be againts toku's archer and not our warrior. If either archer dies we can then clean up if necessary with the warrior. We can call this..

"Operation Shadow Step"

Now if toku moves first... then it is epic fail as our warrior gets his club handed to him.
in which case perhaps we can initiate...

"Operation Lode Stone"

Which would be to neglect techs not immediately necessary and save up gold to upgrade the warrior to an axe. Step out on to the marble and then hunt down and destroy said Barbarian.

We can also decide the best case scenario is...

"Operation Wishful Thinking"
Which is to do nothing and hope Toku does all our dirty work for us.


I believe to do nothing would invite a barbarian city to settle on our southern border and wreck all our hard work.

AIs move before barbs.
The warrior in the north is not much of a threat.
If Toku's Archer is next to a barb, Toku will attack it.
A barb city in the wrong place (and it would scupper our marble city) would be a thorn in our side, but we just can't afford 85 gold to upgrade. If we have an emergency, we can (will have to) whip an axe. The "easy" solution would be for the lazy AIs to get off their asses and get us up to 30 cities; and then the archer can suicide on our fortified-forest-warrior, with the other one around for cleanup and spawnbusting.
 
Nice work so far, magnusmarcus! :goodjob:

I assume that you plan to continue on, right? But, before we can continue we have to decide:

1. One-whip or two-whip option
2. What to do about the barb in the NW
3. What to do about the barb in the S
4. Have the barbs made it such that we need to make any other modifications to our plans? Should we start a warrior rather than a library in Gems City, for example?

BTW, I'm on a business trip until Thursday, so my availability will be spotty for the next two days.
 
Yes, excellent play so far, magnus!!!

Test save T53 1880BC.
 

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magnusmarcus said:
I have never used the worldbuilder so I'm not quite sure how to create an accurate test.
I was just thinking that you would play through the test saved game with identical steps as the real saved game.

Things like adding or removing a Barbarian unit are easy enough for anyone else to do after the fact.

It seems like LowtherCastle went and did both.


Anyway, if you want to learn how to create units in the World Builder, it's not that hard:
In the main menu, there is a World Builder option, which will prompt you whether or not you want to enter it. Click on Yes and then you basically get to see the whole map and have a bunch of icons at the top right of the screen.

I don't have the game in front of me, but one option out of the icons at the top right of the screen (the initially-selected option) lets you create units. By default, the Lion unit is selected. Also, by default, our Civilization is selected. So, clicking on the map will create a Lion that belongs to us... which is weird since Lions normally belong to the Barb Civ, but its a bit of functionality that gives you immediate ideas about just how the World Builder can allow you to customize the game.

Anyway, to create, say, a Barb Archer:
At the top right of the screen, you would first pick the Civ that you'd want to create a unit for out of a drop-down list of Civs. In this case, you would pick the Barbarian Civ.

Then, in the list of units, you can click on Warrior, Archer, or any other types of units. You would then click on the Archer icon.

Clicking your mouse cursor anywhere on the map would create a Barbarian Archer unit.

Now, one caveat is that each AI unit on the map gets a behaviour script associated with it. By default, an Archer unit is assigned the City Defence script. The problem with the City Defence script is that a unit which is not placed in a City that gets assigned this script will never move around--which is a situation that does not really mimic a real Barb Archer.

So, you would then need to edit the unit's properties, so that you can change its behaviour script.

I forget, but I think that one of the World Builder's top-right icons, somewhere at the bottom left of that set of icons, allows you to edit the properties of units. Once you've got that icon selected, you can click on a Barbarian Archer that you have created and can edit its properties, such as its Name, its Experience Points, its Level, its behaviour script, and on another tab, its Promotions.

I think that the behaviour script you would want to select is called something like "AI_ATTACK." Selecting that script (or one with a name similar to that) should allow the Barb Archer to freely roam around like a game-generated Barb Archer would roam around.


There are a lot of other things that you can do in the World Builder. For example, you can change your total amount of Gold (but you can't directly change the number of Flasks that you have earned toward a tech). You can change the location of Resources, the types of terrain, add or remove units and Cities, etc. After your turnset is over, feel free to take some time to play around with the World Builder to get more of a feel for how it works. For now, someone else on the team can make adjustments for things like creating or deleting AI units or Barb units until you feel comfortable doing it.
 
Okay, I squeezed in a tiny bit of time to play with the test saved game.

I'm starting to get a feel for what we're looking at here. Without having tried Mitchum's game yet, one thing that has been bugging me is:
If we're going to go to all of the trouble of saving a 30 Hammer Forest Chop for Gem City, why aren't we making the Chop now?

I guess that the answer is that we want the Gem Mined and the Pig Pastured and then have other needs for our Workers. But, what if we can cut out one of those needs? I mean, what if we don't build a Road to Gem City and instead put in a Forest Chop? Will that work?


Anyway, I'll have to play around more on another night, but here are some random comments that I wrote down as I was playing... I only got as far as Turn 59 1640BC.


Okay, in terms of the Barb Archer in the south... our Warrior that is Fortified on the Grassland River Forest 1S of the Grassland River Copper actually spawn-busts all but 2 squares down there.

The Barb Archer, as long as we cannot see him, will be spawn-busting at least 1 of the 2 squares down there, if not both of them.

So, I am extremely tempted to just leave our Warrior Fortified on top of the Grassland River Forest for now.

We do want to watch out for the possibility of the Barb Archer heading west, in which case we likely will want to "cover" the southern spawn-busting by moving the warrior that is 1S of our Grassland River Copper to the south by one square, onto the Grassland Hills River. In that case, we may even end up needing to retreat our south-western Warrior... but, we may want to talk about such a move, too, so it wouldn't hurt to pause play if the Barb Archer comes close to our south-western Warrior.


As for our northern Warrior, since we don't really think that the Barb Warrior is going to come for us, I recommend that we move our Warrior 1E onto the Grassland River Forest then back again next turn onto the Grassland River just to see where the Barb Warrior goes.

If the Barb Warrior goes back SW onto the Grassland that is 1W of the Lake, we'll repeat our moves.

Otherwise, we'll move to the Grassland River Forest 1W of the Grassland River Forest Deer and park our butt there, with the hopes that by completing the chokepoint, the Barb Warrior will wander away.

If the Barb Warrior wanders back to the square Grassland River square 1NW of there (1N of the Lake), then I guess we'll have to pause play and decide whether to retreat or not.


On Turn 53 1880BC
I would change:
Settler SW NW
->
Settler SW Grassland, W Grassland

That way, we have a tiny extra chance for a free Forest growing, since all else is equal.


Then, obviously, on Turn 54 1840BC we'd need to change:
Settler SW NW
->
Settler W Grassland River NW Grassland River Forest



magnusmarcus said:
Turn 55 1800BC
Do All Worker Chops first!
I am guessing that we are missing a step to move the Worker located 1E of the Grassland River Gem one square north before Chopping, right?



magnusmarcus said:
Turn 58 1680BC
1NE Bronze Worker SE Road el after
Zlatarog Start warrior
I don't know what that "el after" bit means. Actually, if I understand things correctly, since we already built a Warrior, we don't have this Worker yet, right?

I'm not sure what the Worker to the south-east of Delhi is supposed to be doing on this turn.


Apologies if I looked at an out-dated plan, but I THINK that I was looking at the most recent plan of magnusmarcus' for those turns.
 
On Turn 53 1880BC
I would change:
Settler SW NW
->
Settler SW Grassland, W Grassland

That way, we have a tiny extra chance for a free Forest growing, since all else is equal.
Actually, all else is not equal. :) The purpose of SW NW is to give our settler two paths to its desination, just in case forest growth blocks one of the two paths. Your proposal, SW W, delays our settling 1t if there is forest growth W of the settler during the IT.

This precaution is only required for magnus' plan because in MItchum's plan, the to-be-settled spot will be cleared the turn of settling. So in Mitchum's plan, we could do it your way.
 
Not related to this turnset, but I've been thinking about whether or not it makes sense to settle the deer/cow site. I do think that city would be good long-term because it will be able to crank out units once it's grown and has a granary. However, do we really want to put the time and effort into setting this city up? I think those 100H would be better spent on axes and cats. I'd rather have two of Toku's cities, including his capital, a few turns sooner than the cow/deer city... We need to take advatage of Construction as soon as we can, right?
Now is a good time to start planning our war on Toku.

1. Do we build granaries next and where?
2. Do we build barracks next and where?
3. Do we settle Cows/Deer asap?

Here's the thing. Toku is developing at a snail's pace. He has two cities, 4 archers. Osaka put 33h into something left incomplete. Since the 4th archer, Kyoto has put about 55h into maybe a granary(51h)/library(?76h). His GNP hasn't budged upward the entire game and he doesn't have BW yet. He idiotically researched Writing instead.

Meanwhile, we are 11 turns from Construction, if we're lucky enough to build the Oracle. Where will Toku be then? Where will he be if we mobilize asap? Can we catch him with his pants down? (Btw, just so we're clear, I would probably skirt Osaka and attack Kyoto directly, because he'll be confused on whether our units are attacking Osaka or Kyoto, until our units move right next to Kyoto.)

Then there is the consideration of roading to speed our units to Toku. Our workers can't chop units and road at the same time.

So what's realistic? And what do we actually need to think about now? I guess the main questions are not worker turns. The questions for now till T64 are whether to build granaries in all cities or not? Granaries are needed

1. Where we'll poprush
2. In developing cities that will grow slowly.

ANother way of looking at it is this: What's the minimum force we'll need and can it come from Delhi+GEL, since those two cities are really close and will be well-roaded?
 
Good points, LC. We'll have to nail some of this stuff (i.e. where to build granaries) down now before magnusmarcus can play. My thinking is that:

Delhi could use a granary and barracks.
Zlatorog could use an early granary now and possibly a barracks later on.
Gold-E Locks could use a granary and possibly a barracks later on.
Gems City could use a granary and a library (science city?)
Marble?

Regarding Cow/Deer, we'd need to understand how long it takes to get this city set up with a granary and possibly a barracks. With the deer pre-camped and the cows shortly after, it should be set up quite quickly. I guess the question is whether we want to spend the 100H and the worker turns required to do this or if it makes more sense to use these resources to get our army started. With no city razing, we'll have a TON of cities to keep our army supplied... and our city maintenance high.

My initial thought is that since Deer/Cow will actually delay our invasion of Toku that it is NOT worth it in the short term. I would rather have Osaka and Kyoto sooner. Just one extra archer in Kyoto will require 2 or 3 more units to take it down. It would be great to attack right around the time Toku is sending out a settler for his third city along with one or two defending archers.

@magnusmarcus

You're still up. When do you plan to put up your PPP? Do you need any information from us before you do so? We should try to keep the game going so that we don't run out of time at the end like last game.
 
Should we switch espionage to Hammy any time soon since Toku will be dead within 20 to 25 turns (I hope)? We need enough EPP on him to see his demo data but that should be it, right?

EDIT: I don't have the game available right now (I'm typing in secret during my meeting), but I'm pretty sure Toku will be dead before we get eyes on his research. As long as we ensure we have enough EPP to see his demo data, we should be fine.
 
LowtherCastle said:
1. Do we build granaries next and where?
2. Do we build barracks next and where?
I would tend to say:
Yes, build Granaries in most Cities, but no, don't build any Barracks. In place of every Barracks, I would rather have 1 additional suicidal Catapult, which will do more damage than a single promotion on units will do.

That's just my gut instinct, but when you're Axe-rushing (which is essentially what we're doing--we're just extending the length of time when an Axe rush is viable by bringing along Catapults), you generally skip the Barracks.

Barracks work better with a late rush that does not have Catapults; with Catapults, the Barracks are frankly not needed and will actually slow down our capturing of Toku's Cities.



LowtherCastle said:
3. Do we settle Cows/Deer asap?
If we don't, then do the gained Hammers let us build more units and gained Worker turns let us Chop more units? I would think that the answer is "yes" for both questions.


It's more efficient to "break out" of our prison before we settle one of the last non-marginal Cities than to wait until we've settled all but the marginal Cities before attacking.


There is still a good chance that Toku will have Copper under his capital. Even if not, he can get it connected quickly. So, I'm in the "get an army quickly" camp, meaning 0 Barracks (Hammers invested in any Barracks to date can still be recouped at a later date) and meaning no Settler for Cow + Deer until after we've built a military force.


Building a Settler (say, for the Cow + Deer site) is a great thing to do after you have pop-rushed a couple of times and your people are too unhappy to let your City regrow.


Since Toku only have 2 Cities, we'll probably end up eliminating him. Oh well. Owning the land close to our capital is probably of more use than keeping him alive for strategic reasons, such as trying to get him to build the Apostolic Palace for us.



The big question to me that we need to be asking is "what size of a force will constitute a sufficiently large force" for us to consider declaring war on Toku?

Gold-E Locks and possibly Marble City will need a City Defender (such as a Spearman or an Axeman), but those can be some of the last-built units that are still moving to the east edge of our empire when we declare war.

However, how many units will we need in our Stack of Doom?

Let's assume a worst case scenario:
Toku has 5 Archers with City Defence II + Drill I on a Hills square with the River Defence bonus and full Fortification bonus in his capital.

How many Catapults do we need to Bombard for a turn or two and then suicide attack? How many clean-up Axemen (plus, say, 1 Spearman just in case Toku does get Chariots, since Chariots maul Axemen but 1 lone Spearman mauls a stack of Chariots) do we need to complete the capture of the City?

An absolute minimum of 5 Axemen + Spearmen would be required to kill off the 5 defending Archers, since Catapults can't kill defending units.

Once we have a feel for just how big of a Stack of Doom we will need, then we can consider how much of an impact having a few sacrificial Warriors can have on the situation. I have used sacrificial Warriors quite successfully in warring, which can sometimes lure an Archer to end its turn outside of a City and thus die but can also at least get an Archer to leave a City and return to a City, losing part of its Fortification bonus--the Archer will probably have fully healed by the time that we're ready to attack but it might be down to a 10% or 15% Fortification bonus. Ideally, of course, we'll "convince" the Archers to meet our Warriors in the field where the Archers can't get back to their City in time, leaving them ripe for the picking by our Axemen (I'd plan for 2 Axemen to kill each Archer--1 to make the kill and one to defend the other or to get an easy win if the first one dies).


If we DO get promotions, say from winning battles, I have found that Combat I is often a far better promotion than City Raider I for Axemen.


Mitchum said:
Should we switch espionage to Hammy any time soon since Toku will be dead within 20 to 25 turns (I hope)? We need enough EPP on him to see his demo data but that should be it, right?

EDIT: I don't have the game available right now (I'm typing in secret during my meeting), but I'm pretty sure Toku will be dead before we get eyes on his research. As long as we ensure we have enough EPP to see his demo data, we should be fine.
We could switch Espionage targets, since that switching will automatically happen if and when we eliminate Toku (which looks to be a very likely thing to have happen).

As you say, though, we need to be sure to keep getting the Demographic data on Toku.

Another way to look at the problem is that spending 4 Espionage Points per turn on Hammurabi doesn't do a whole lot, except probably cause Hammurabi to spend more Espionage Points on us. If we switch Espionage targets too soon and end up having to switch back to Toku, Hammurabi's resulting increased spending on us could make it take even longer overall to get Demographic info and Tech Research info on Hammurabi compared with the scenario where we only switch Espionage Targets a bit later.

If you're certain that we'll have the info that we need on Toku, we can switch now, otherwise we can delay doing so until my turnset.
 
With a barracks, catapults are 1 win/retreat away from an Accuracy promotion. Four Accuracy cats in a stack can bring city defenses in most early cities to down 0% (barring those that have castles/walls)...

If having a promotion saves cat/axe or two, that barracks has paid for itself in the long term, but probably not in the short term...

I'm not sure how many we need or how early we should get them though.
 
I agree that against castles/walls, barracks don't really do much for our cats because most of them are going to die and their main effect will come from the collateral damage, not the CRI promotion. So...

Assuming 5 CGII+DrillI,etc.

6 cats cause the maximum 50% collateral damage (in theory), with some of the archers having as much as the 75% attack damage possible. So the archers will vary from a modified strength of ~3 to ~6. We''l need two axes for the ~6 str archers and one axe for the ~3 str. So we shuld ba able to get by with roughly 8 axes and 6 cats. That's 580h. Five 2pops is 300h. Five chops is 150h. Plus 130h by hand. I'd say we need 2 whips each in Delhi and GEL, since they're closest, so they need granaries immediately. If ZLatorog gets a border expansion it can chop a couple forests. Gems could whip a couple times if it has a granary. Marble could build an axe by handle, though I'd rather build a granary there. Delhi could chop a couple axes. GEL could chop 1 axe. Gems could chop a couple with border expansion. So that gets us to

Delh 4pop+2chop= 180h
GEL 4pop+1chop= 150h
Zlat 0pop+2chop= 60h
Gems 4pop+2chop= 180h
Total = 570h, not including raw hammers from regrowth.

So to get our army built ~10-15t after building the granaries, we need border expansion in Gems and Zlatorog.
 
Nice analysis, ZPV LC.

This military buildup will happen during Dhoom's turnset. So, for magnusmarcus' PPP:

Plan on starting a granary in Delhi and Gems as soon as Pottery is learned.

Unless we plan on camping the deer soon, I think Zlatorog can safely skip its granary for a while and start cranking out axes/cats/1 spear if no copper, right? There are enough forests in the inner cross to chop right now if I remember correctly.

Before Pottery, should Gems build a sacrificial warrior rather than a small percentage of a library that probably won't be completed for many turns? Or should we start the library before the granary knowing that a) we need a border pop there and b) this city could be our science city?

Other than this, I think magnus needs input on whether to save that inner-cross forest for Gems City or if he can go ahead and chop this forest into Delhi's settler/library.

Of course, we need to work out the logistics of our warriors and how to deal with the barbs in the NW and S too. I think that there is enough info in this area for magnusmarcus to put something in his plan for comment.
 
Everything I've read trying to skill up my game for emperor + has been Whip early, whip often. Prior to this I have very rarely whipped a thing in civ. With this in mind I am not the optimum choice for determining the best plan for making the most of using the whip.

Example : Mitchum's plan (In the plain light of day its more efficient to save the chop and use a 2 whip rush as opposed to a 1 whip rush. Even tho it seemed to me to be counter productive)

I think the team would be better served having someone else more informed put a plan together as whipping appears to be the primary source of production in this phase of our game.

(Quite frankly that is one of the reason's I joined was to see the best way to make these optimizations).

I would prefer to step back , observe and test.
 
Other than this, I think magnus needs input on whether to save that inner-cross forest for Gems City or if he can go ahead and chop this forest into Delhi's settler/library.

Ty Mitchum; Can I get a Yay, Nay on the 1 whip, 2 whip scenario? Has anyone else performed an analysis on which version sets us up better to produce our invasion force?
 
There is only one press of the whip button in the upcoming turnset. The question is whether to whip one or two pops. If you can reproduce my two-pop whip test, then you're just as qualified as any of us to play out the turns once we've agreed on which way to go.

Regarding whipping, I'd be willing to bet that every one of us went through an initial period of being afraid to whip or feeling that it's not a nice thing to do because it has a bad connotation. To advance to the harder levels, you have to get over that feeling. The math speaks for itself. Converting food to hammers using slavery (and a granary) is very efficient. How do you think the GW and 'Mids were built... ;) If you pay attention and watch how quickly we raise an army, you can't help but become a better player.

With that said, if you don't want to play any more turns, for whatever reason, no problem. Announce that you're done (which I think you have, right?) and Dhoomstriker can pick it up.


Edit: By the way, the turnsets are only going to get more intense and more whip happy as the game goes on. This is probably the best time for you to get your feet wet. If you change your mind and want to play, put together a plan and put it out there for discussion.
 
I see no reason not to let marcusmagnus continue, if he so chooses. I'll try out some more testing shortly, so that hopefully, I'll be able to get through both variants.

I tend to play test games very slowly--I'm probably the slowest member on the team in that regard--but at the same time, I'm also thinking of various alternate possibilities. In this case, things are already so optimized (great work, everyone!) that it is hard for me to find ways to improve upon the planning, but I'll try... and if I can't find any improvements to suggest, hopefully I'll at least have a vote on the 1-pop-whip versus 2-pop-whip debate.
 
To pick which option you prefer, it's probably faster to open the Option 1 and 2 test games I posted, compare them, play them out a few turns, etc.

With that said, input on the current plans is always welcome.
 
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