Changes to existing factions

With FF wartats don't have to be fused to a special metal weapons promo chain; they're an independent promo granted with Dyes to whichever units we want to make eligible. So while the base swordsmen/spearmen are just eligible for the metal weapons tiers, the Bretonni versions can be unique in being able to have both Wartatoos and metal simultaneously, a significant but not overwhelming benefit. If you want, they could also be made to get wartats free without access to Dyes (ie ritual scarification or something.)

I think you're right either Mounted Warband or Horsemen Warband are better names for the base Ancient Cav unit; work better for a wider variety of civs. As far as Bretonni Spearmen Warband, again maybe a bit long for display purposes but I can't think of anything better ATM ?

Any thoughts on post 15?

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I'm hesistant to make too many units that are simultaneously civ and religion specific (esp as the Old World is really pretty polytheistic), but those seem relatively flavorful so we could go with them. A lot of the temporary building effects (Magistrate etc) could be replaced by passive aura benefits (can even add/subtract nearby trade routes via aura promos). I think we could nudge down the national caps a bit further to 4 and 2.

Wartats needs to be superseded by bronze.
It is supposed to be a minor bonus. If it is too major, then game balance gets severely messed up based on which civs happen to get the dye resource or not, which is very random. Its too rare a resource to be powerful.

Its a nice bonus but not overpowering to have swordsmen that are guaranteed the attack strength bonus from bronze even without a copper resource, but if the two were combined then bronze swordsmen with wartats would be 6/5, as compared to bronze milita swordsmen at 6/6. Too much.

I'd be fine with shifting some of the spell effects to passive auras. Which do you think are best suited to that?
I still don't know what PL wants the Sigmar spells to do.

I've tweaked some of the religion units too, and changed the post to just point to the design thread.

I have no particular problem with limits of 4/2. Playtest needed, obviously.

I still don't know what PL wants the Sigmar spells to do.

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neither do i theres a fair ammount of leeway here.

bretonnian swordmen starting with wartats is a good idea. and while were at it, Woodelf Wardancers should as well

and while were at it, Woodelf Wardancers should as well

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Wardancers with wartats doesn't do any good; by the time you are that late in the tech tree, you *will* have bronze or iron. They're tier3 melee!

good point

well wardancers have special rules based on their wartattoos called the Dances of Loec, so i think they should be barred from metal weapons and get their Dances of Loec as special spell/abilities.

What do these dances do? How could they be implemented? The idea of making them non-metal dependent is interesting.

Going with Orlanth's general theme, the abilities should be passive whenever possible.

How about we make the wardancer strength 7, 20% withdraw chance, 1-2 first strikes, no metal weapons, can use wartats, starts with wartats.

As opposed to Pikemen, who are Strength 5/7. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons.

i like those stats for wardancers. the dances are:

Whirling Death : all attacks count as killing blow (so could give them +2 death attack -1 normal attack?) till end of next turn, 1 turn cool down (cant use this dance 2 turns in a row)

Storm of Blades: +2 first strike chances, -10% withdrawal chance till end of next turn, 1 turn cool down (cant use this dance 2 turns in a row)

The Shadows Coil: +20% magic resitance, +20% defence till end of next turn, 1 turn cool down (cant use this dance 2 turns in a row)

Woven Mist: -1 attack strength, +2 first strike (not chances) till end of next turn, 1 turn cool down (cant use this dance 2 turns in a row)

Why make them abilities? Following Orlanth's guiding principle, we can get the basic idea of the dances (withdraw chance, first strikes) onto the unit without needing to code extra abilities that the AI won't really understand and that the human player will have to micromanage?

I was intending those core stats to be *including* the fact that they have wardances. I'm happy to tweak them, but I don't think that these really need to be separate spells.

well the point of the spells is to make them versatile and have various extra benefits outside what they usually get. i dont see a problem with it?

Spells on niche unit specialist mages is one thing, but spells on a main melee combat unit is something else. How would you train the AI which one to pick? Heck, how would the human player pick? They all have basically the same effect, making the unit more likely to win a combat. I guess two are offensive and two defensive, but the difference between them in terms of effecting combat odds is pretty minor. So not much versatility gain.

It just seems unnecessary to code 4 new spells and buttons when you could capture most of the design value and flavor value by having the benefits built-in.
If you prefer, have some of their benefits come from a promotion.

So they could be:
strength 7, no metal weapons, can use wartats, starts with wartats.
Starts with Dances of Loec promotion, which gives 20% withdraw chance, 1-2 first strikes.

Having them built in reduces micromanagement, reduces AI issues and improves run-time.

Ahriman said:

Spells on niche unit specialist mages is one thing, but spells on a main melee combat unit is something else. How would you train the AI which one to pick? Heck, how would the human player pick? They all have basically the same effect, making the unit more likely to win a combat. I guess two are offensive and two defensive, but the difference between them in terms of effecting combat odds is pretty minor. So not much versatility gain.

It just seems unnecessary to code 4 new spells and buttons when you could capture most of the design value and flavor value by having the benefits built-in.
If you prefer, have some of their benefits come from a promotion.

So they could be:
strength 7, no metal weapons, can use wartats, starts with wartats.
Starts with Dances of Loec promotion, which gives 20% withdraw chance, 1-2 first strikes.

Having them built in reduces micromanagement, reduces AI issues and improves run-time.

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I think this would be a better way to portray them.

Erh wardancers, so lame. PL how about a spell called Lord of the Dance? Causes fear in all surrounding units, even friendlies but summons 1-6 units that can fight that round. I got the art for the button already

lol nice Dead. Nice.

Spells on niche unit specialist mages is one thing, but spells on a main melee combat unit is something else. How would you train the AI which one to pick? Heck, how would the human player pick? They all have basically the same effect, making the unit more likely to win a combat. I guess two are offensive and two defensive, but the difference between them in terms of effecting combat odds is pretty minor. So not much versatility gain.

It just seems unnecessary to code 4 new spells and buttons when you could capture most of the design value and flavor value by having the benefits built-in.
If you prefer, have some of their benefits come from a promotion.

So they could be:
strength 7, no metal weapons, can use wartats, starts with wartats.
Starts with Dances of Loec promotion, which gives 20% withdraw chance, 1-2 first strikes.

Having them built in reduces micromanagement, reduces AI issues and improves run-time.

Click to expand...

this works i guess. not as flavourful but meh cant win em all

Psychic_Llamas said:

lol nice Dead. Nice.


this works i guess. not as flavourful but meh cant win em all

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Hey at least the tattoos will be mentioned somehow in the game. Give them a shiny button!

Give them a shiny button!

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you know i think i will at that