40k Mini-mod?
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Ahriman
Tyrant
That would require a *ton* of work, this mod isn't really very much like 40k at all. The whole concept of slowly building an empire and researching new tech on a single world with tons of different factions just doesn't make sense for 40k.
I love 40k (more than fantasy), but I don't really see the civ engine doing a great job with it.
How would you distinguish ranged from melee combat? How would you distinguish all the different weapon types? How would vehicles work vs infantry? How can you really make battle work given the stack combat system? What role would city growth, technology and Wonders have? How could you make all the races sufficiently different given their vastly different economies? How would terrain improvements work?
And even if you wanted to try, I don't really see anything in this mod that would help you build a 40k mod that isn't in vanilla civ (or maybe FFH), you'd basically have to start from scratch.
If you like 40k, go play Dawn of War 2, a good game now with the potential to be truly great, with a few balancing issues and bug-fixes.
I love 40k (more than fantasy), but I don't really see the civ engine doing a great job with it.
How would you distinguish ranged from melee combat? How would you distinguish all the different weapon types? How would vehicles work vs infantry? How can you really make battle work given the stack combat system? What role would city growth, technology and Wonders have? How could you make all the races sufficiently different given their vastly different economies? How would terrain improvements work?
And even if you wanted to try, I don't really see anything in this mod that would help you build a 40k mod that isn't in vanilla civ (or maybe FFH), you'd basically have to start from scratch.
If you like 40k, go play Dawn of War 2, a good game now with the potential to be truly great, with a few balancing issues and bug-fixes.
Ahriman
Tyrant
What you would really need would be a Final frontier type mod, but one where each planet still had a bunch of tiles/territories on it. Something like the Dawn of War 1 campaign for Soulstorm. Imagine each planet with say 16 tiles, which could have cities/factories/terrain types/specials on them.
So at one level you'd have a Battlefleet Gothic type game with starships going on, and then you'd transport ground troops to each planet to fight it out.
Not really what the civ engine was designed for.
So at one level you'd have a Battlefleet Gothic type game with starships going on, and then you'd transport ground troops to each planet to fight it out.
Not really what the civ engine was designed for.
PPQ_Purple
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I have been working on making a WH40K version of this. Based on a single planet and with all the factions present.
But I need a lot of people, as I alone am realy a noob in moding. And with the exams going I can't even get enough time on the PC...
On the + side, I am studeing the DLL in every free moment that I have.
For the Mele vs Ranged comabat I have my own ideas how to work that out.
The same goes for the weargear, weapons, vehicles and most importmantly Chaos.
But I need a lot of people, as I alone am realy a noob in moding. And with the exams going I can't even get enough time on the PC...
On the + side, I am studeing the DLL in every free moment that I have.
For the Mele vs Ranged comabat I have my own ideas how to work that out.
The same goes for the weargear, weapons, vehicles and most importmantly Chaos.
Ahriman
Tyrant
PPQ; if you want some design suggestions I'm happy to try to help out.
Dunno how workable it would be, but still.
Tough to think about how a tech tree would work, and how it would work across factions; its tough to see Eldar using the same tech tree as Marines or Tyranids or Orks.
Look at the Planetfall mod for some ideas too.
In particular, you can have different types of promotion slots; eg you could have a Weapon promotion slot that was mutually exclusive, so you could upgrade a tactical squad with a flamer (+25% combat strength vs melee units) OR a plasma gun (+10% strength vs infantry, +25% strength vs heavy infantry) OR a missile launcher (+100% strength vs vehicles) etc. etc.
To signify that you need anti-tank weapons against vehicles, I'd make all vehicles have high base strength, but with AT weapons getting large strength bonuses against them.
1-shot equipment (like Meltas and frags) could work like this:
Each unit can have one "accessory" slot in the same way they have a weapon slot. And so you could spend a promotion to upgrade the unit with the Melta bombs promotion.
The melta bombs promotion has a 25% chance per turn of adding the "Meltas ready" promotion to the unit.
The "Meltas ready" promotion does nothing except allows you to cast the "Throw Melta bombs" spell.
The "Throw Melta Bombs" spell removes the "meltas ready" promotion and adds the "Activated Melta bomb" promotion, which gives a +50% strength bonus to vehicles and is removed with 100% probability at the end of turn.
The book-keeping is very messy, but the basic effect would be there of differentiating permanent equipment from stuff that was just used sometimes.
There are so few units for most factions that its hard to imagine a very deep tech-tree. A lot of the tech tree would probably be as pre-reqs for particular upgrades.
I'd imagine unit types as:
Melee infantry
Recon infantry
Infantry
Heavy Infantry
Vehicle
Monster
Dunno how workable it would be, but still.
Tough to think about how a tech tree would work, and how it would work across factions; its tough to see Eldar using the same tech tree as Marines or Tyranids or Orks.
Look at the Planetfall mod for some ideas too.
In particular, you can have different types of promotion slots; eg you could have a Weapon promotion slot that was mutually exclusive, so you could upgrade a tactical squad with a flamer (+25% combat strength vs melee units) OR a plasma gun (+10% strength vs infantry, +25% strength vs heavy infantry) OR a missile launcher (+100% strength vs vehicles) etc. etc.
To signify that you need anti-tank weapons against vehicles, I'd make all vehicles have high base strength, but with AT weapons getting large strength bonuses against them.
1-shot equipment (like Meltas and frags) could work like this:
Each unit can have one "accessory" slot in the same way they have a weapon slot. And so you could spend a promotion to upgrade the unit with the Melta bombs promotion.
The melta bombs promotion has a 25% chance per turn of adding the "Meltas ready" promotion to the unit.
The "Meltas ready" promotion does nothing except allows you to cast the "Throw Melta bombs" spell.
The "Throw Melta Bombs" spell removes the "meltas ready" promotion and adds the "Activated Melta bomb" promotion, which gives a +50% strength bonus to vehicles and is removed with 100% probability at the end of turn.
The book-keeping is very messy, but the basic effect would be there of differentiating permanent equipment from stuff that was just used sometimes.
There are so few units for most factions that its hard to imagine a very deep tech-tree. A lot of the tech tree would probably be as pre-reqs for particular upgrades.
I'd imagine unit types as:
Melee infantry
Recon infantry
Infantry
Heavy Infantry
Vehicle
Monster
orlanth
Storm God. Yarr!
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I think this is a cool idea, and could be accomplished fairly straightforwardly by replacing Ocean terrain type with "Space" terrain, and having starships be Naval units with transport and range-attack bombardment; each planet could then be a section of normal ground terrains in the "ocean" of space. Even still, with how long it takes a mod to get done I think any new mod started now might not get finished before release of Civ 5 (and that hasn't even been announced yet!
)
PPQ_Purple
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Each race has some unitque techs. But most are shared and have generalised names.
For example: Industry, Infantry armor, Air Superiority, Full Scale Engagement, ect.
Something in that fasion. Think of the Crew system in FfH. A heavy weapon team could go into a city to swap out it's weapons.
This is similar to what I was thiking.
I was not intending to make anything one shot. It would be to complex for the AI to handle re equiping them. Instead grenades and the like would be done via the FfH spell system.
This is what I had in mind for infantry:
Conscript: (sm scout, IG conscript, CSM Cultist ect.)
-equivalent of FfH warior.
Infantry: (Guardsmen, Space Marine Tactical, Ork Slugas ect.)
-Basic all rounders, efective untill the end game becouse they are the only ones you can mass.
FfH Equivalent: Axeman
Support Infantry: (Guardsmen HW teams, SM Devestators ect.)
-Defense and fire suport. Ranged atacks, defense bonuses, slow, Posibly no atack or can not capture cities.
-Best used for city defense, bonus vs mele units.
FfH Equivalent: Archer/Longbowman
All below are limited to 4 per player:
Assault Infantry: (Khorne Berserkers, Ork Nobs ect.)
-Mele infantry, made for rushing cities and destroying infantry and conscripts in the open.
-Bonus vs Infantry, Conscript, City Atack bonus, fast
FfH Equivalent: Berserker
Jump Infantry: (Raptors, Warp Spiders ect.)
-Mele infantry, made to atack specific targets
-Can jump around the battlefield*, fast, bonus vs Support Infantry, upgradable for a bonus vs vehicles, can retreat.
FfH Equivalent: none, posibly cavalery
*Represented by a combination of flying and paradroping.
-Elite Infantry: (Termies, Oblits and the like)
-Unique for each faction.
I will dig up the wehicles later. But the point is that I can not do it without a moding team, witch I do not have a chance of geting. So I am somwhat destroyed.
The design phase is 90% done, but that is all I can do for now.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Thats probably the best way to go.
Well, the AI doesn't understand the crew system in FFH at all.
I'd suggest just making the upgrades permanent. It makes them more strategic, and means that sometimes you should leave them unpromoted. And you could try to balance them and then get the AI to randomly select each one.
Alternatively, you could hard-code them into separate units; the AI would understand that much better and build a better mix. So rather than building a tac squad than can get 3-4 different upgrades, you could just have 3-4 different tac squad variants.
My method would use the spell system, and the AI would just cast the spell whenever it was available and an enemy was on an adjacent tile, and then they are automatically re-equipped (with 25% probability each turn).
The problem is getting them to purchase the grenades in the first place, but you can probably do that by setting some kind of promotion preference weighting parameter.
But 1-shot equipment isn't really important to include.
I think those categories are fine for mental categories of unit slots when designing unit rosters, but in terms of actual in-game unit "categories" (eg mounted units, archer units, adept units, melee units, gunpowder units, etc.) I wouldln't use most of those.
Basically you want to have the categories represent armor types and ranged/melee.
So, conscripts, guardsmen, guardians, shoota boyz, stormboyz, would all be Infantry.
Tac marines, warpspiders, would be Heavy Infantry.
Assault marines, nob squads, slugga boyz would be Melee Infantry.
Devastators, and weapons teams would be Support Infantry.
Whirlwhind and basilisk (is that the IG artillery gun?) would be Siege units.
Tanks and razorbacks and dreadnoughts would be Vehicles.
Daemons, avatar, krootox, squiggoth etc would be Monsters.
Warpspiders, stormboyz, raptors and assault marines woud have the "jump troops" promotion, that would make them immune to river-crossing penalty, 1 first strike and maybe a combat bonus vs support infantry.
The only point of the in-game weapons classes is so that you can have strength promotions that give boosts against particular types of units. You want to represent that some units and weapons are better against melee troops (like flamers or dreadnoughts), while others are good vs vehicles, and others again are better against heavily-armored heavy infantry.
Ahriman
Tyrant
possible, but the AI is pretty bad at naval transport and invasions.
Too true....
PPQ_Purple
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AI coding is way out of my league. So don't think this would be included unless I can get someone to AI code for me.
I don't understand what you meen. That is what they already do in my model.
Maybe I confused you becouse the list I posted is not sorted by the <unitcombat> tag but by the <unitclas> tag.
In my model, both Space Marines and Guardsmen do fit in the same category becouse they share the same <unitclas> but they would have radicaly diferent costs and strenth and <unitcombat> values.
And space combat is out of the question.
Simply becouse I can extract all the models from the DOW PC games to use, if someone could rework/bone them for me. But there are no starship models.
Edit... I actualy think we both said the same thing just now.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Then you're probably better off splitting the units entirely.
As in: tactical squad with plasma gun unit, tactical squad with missile launcher unit, etc, rather than making them upgrades. The AI will do better at providing a mix of units than it will in choosing different promotions.
Except that you have weird things together; you have melee units mixed with ranged units, and you have weak infantry like conscripts in a separate category from other weak infantry like guardsmen. While you have lightly armored troops like guardsmen in the same category as heavily armored guys like tactical marines.
Conscripts should just be guardsmen with lower stats and fewer weapon promotion possibilities, they shouldn't be separate unit classes.
Sluggas should be in the same unit class as Nobz and Berserkers, just with weaker stats.
A weapon that is good against melee troops will be good against both sluggas and nobz, it won't be good against tactical marines. But your design has tactical marines and slugga boyz in the same unit class.
A weapon that is good vs massed infantry (like a heavy bolter) isn't necessarily good vs heavy infantry like tactical marines, while a weapon that is good vs heavy armor (like a plasma gun) isn't necessarily effective vs masses of weak infantry. The same weapons are effective against both terminators and tactical marines (terminators are just much higher combat strength), whereas you need different weapons for fighting tactical marines vs fighting guardsmen.
One of the things I hated about Dawn of War 1 (and like about Dawn of War2, which fixes this) is that Tactical marines were made into just weak infantry much like anything else, barely tougher than a guardsmen.
And jump troops should be in the same unit class as other ranged or melee troops, just with special bonuses from a jump promotion. Once they jump in, fighting stormboyz is basically the same as fighting slugga boyz, a weapon that is good vs one will be good vs the other. Its just the stormboyz will be more effective vs weapons teams or units with first strikes.
Your way isn't *wrong*, but I think mine works a bit more consistently.
Alternatively, you could separate them even more:
Ranged Infantry (conscripts, guardsmen, cultists)
Melee Infantry (slugga boyz, hormagaunts)
Heavy ranged infantry (tactical marines, warpspiders, necron warriors)
Heavy melee infantry (berserkers, nob squads, assault marines)
Support infantry (devastators, weapons teams, eldar platforms)
Light vehicles (landspeeder, vyper jet bike)
Heavy vehicle
Siege vehicle.
And you could even add in jump troops as a separate category if you wanted.
So, for example:
Guardsmen regiment, strength 5, ranged infantry.
Tactical marine squad, strength 6, ranged heavy infantry
Landspeeder, strength 8, 3 moves, 25% withdraw chance, light vehicle
Predator, strength 15, vehicle.
Grenade launcher (available to guardsmen)
+20% strength vs ranged infantry
+10% strength vs melee infantry
+5% strength vs heavy infantry
+5% strength vs heavy melee infantry
Plasma gun:
+20% strength vs heavy ranged infantry
+10% strength vs heavy melee infantry
+5% strength vs infantry
+5% strength vs melee infantry
Missile launcher:
+40% strength vs light vehicle
+100% strength vs vehicle
Lascannon:
+20% strength vs light vehicle
+60% strength vs vehicle
+20% strength vs ranged heavy infantry
etc.
PPQ_Purple
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This is most likely what I will do.
Have you not read my post? I specificly explained how the clas I put them in has nothing to do with the combat type or the actual grouping in the game.
Tactical Marines would have a diferent combat type than Guardsmen. They just fit in the same category becouse they are equivalents semanticly.
Basicly, a category for me is a group of units that come with the same tech level and preform the same rolle for the diferent factions.
But in game terms, they would not fit into the same unit category.
I am basing it on the lore and TT rulles, not on the PC games.
A bolter is a small missile launcher, so it can instant kill most infantry and glance wehicles. And mased lasguns (guardsmen rifles) can take down space marines easy.
Also, take acount that a SM player would have a small amount of elite troops, while a guard player would be the equivalent of Banor.
This is where you are wrong. Jump troops are not designed to fight like their mele or ranged counterparts.
Jump troops are used to jump onto enemy units, disrupt formations, drop a few melta bombs and shoot a few units than jump out again. Much like cavalery with flanking 1 and 2. Hence weapons that are good against Asault Infantry (mass firepower or flame) would not be efective against them.
That is why jump troops would have a high atack and the ability to withdrawl, but a low defense and a bonus vs support infantry.
Take for example the Heavy Bolter. It is devestating when defending against Assault Infantry, but usles against jump infantry as they can simply jump over the killing zone and atack the guners in mele.
I have a diferent way of defining weapons and bonuses. I will mostly be focusing on representing range and fire speed vs firepower. I have most of the diferent weargear worked out already. I can post it here if you want.
Range is represented by 1st strikes. The longer the range, the more 1st strikes the unit gets. The faster the shooting speed, the more 1st strikes the unit gets. I can upload you the table for diferent weapons if you like.
While damage vs units is calculated based on the projectile. So for example a heavy bolter will be devestating for defense vs infantry and light wehicles but the unit using it will not be able to atack anything (representing the deployment time needed).
While in contrast a las canon will be near usles ws infantry as they can simply move away to avoid being in the croshairs of the pore sole tuging it. But would devestate vehicles.
And there will be no units from the Nids. They do not have a nation and economy that can be translated into civ properly. And their units would be suicide to bone. (not that I can actualy bone any models at this point)
Mele meens that you get a clear damage bonus and atack strenth, coleteral damage and other atack bonuses.
Ranged meens that you get first strikes.
Jump meens 1st strike imunity, withdrawl and speed.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Apologies, I don't know what the various tags are, so I misunderstood. It looks like we're on the same wavelength after all. I agree that its useful to think about things in unit role/tiers for design purposes.
That seems like a reasonable way of implementing them. I'd give them amphibious too, so they are unaffected by river crossing.
I guess I'm more used to the DOW pc games than the tabletop, so I'm used to jump troops as being assault troops rather than skirmishers.
This seems reasonable, though I'd stay away from collateral damage on most melee units.
So, basically melee units are dominating in open ground, whereas ranged units are better in hills and fortifications (because first strikes are only really very valuable for higher strength units). It would be neat to see the tables. I'd still recommend having each weapon type get different strength modifiers vs different other units. So yes, as you say, a lascannon or missile launcher is good vs vehicles but gives no bonus vs infantry.
I'd still let support weapons attack, but I've give them bonuses like archers in FFH (or just FF?) where they have a chance of doing damage to units attacking the stack even when they aren't the defender.
What have you thought about for building design and terrain improvements?
PPQ_Purple
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I agree with river crosing. Other than that, play DOW1 a litle, try using a squad of Assault Marines as a dedicated atack force against say a dradnought.
Jump in, melta and jump out...
Now that is fun.
Also, read their stats. You will notice that even thou they can stand beter in mele than regular SM they do not have the slightest chance if cought in the open by a combined arms force before they can close in.
They are only good for two things realy. Skirmishing and tieing up things while the ranged guys go for the kill.
This is actualy reserved for Khorne Berserkers. They seem like the lot that would do CD.
Mele units are dominating in open ground, Support units are for dominating hills and fortifications. Infantry are general all purpose troops and Jump Infantry are the city killers as they can retreat and will posibly be made to ignore building defenses or be marksmen (depending on the unit) but will have a low base strenth to compensate.
And 1st strikes are also good for low strenth units. They allow the unit to weaken the enemy before the actual fight. So a strenth 5 unit could be brought down to 3 if you have 4 x 1st strikes from the Heavy Bolter.
This is esentialy thought out as a way to keep units with the right equipement able to survive swarms of adversaries.
Yes, each weapon will have modifiers based on it's penetrative capability.
I can't dig up the Exel file but here is the data from my memory.
-Each level = +1 first strikes
Range:
Short (Mele weapons, flamers shotgun ect.) = 0
Medium (bolter, las rifle ect.) = 1
Long (Heavy bolter, grenade launchers ect.) = 2
Ultra Long (Las Canons, Missile launchers, tau pulse rifles ect.) = 3
Fiering Speed:
Slow (Las Canons, Missile launchers, tau pulse rifles, flamers, mele weapons* ect.) = 0
Medium (bolter, las rifle ect.) = 1
Fast (Heavy bolter, storm bolter ect.) = 2
So a Las Canon would get 3 x 1st strikes from it's range and fire speed and from it's penetrating power: +100% vs heavy wehicles, +50% vs light vehicles, -50% vs all infantry (you try and hit them)
While its polar oposite, the Heavy Bolter would get +2 x 1st strikes from it's range + 2 from it's fire speed, +50% vs Infantry, +25% vs heavy infantry, +25% vs light vehicles
*speed is ofset by the fact that you need to get close
Also note that the units will be grouped by the type of armor they poses.
_________________
Alternatively, and probably these bonuses will be done a bit diferently.
You know how in FF diferent units have diferent damage types (Like Fire, Poison, Ice ect.) and that you can have a promotion give bonuses vs other promotions (like the weapon system does).
I was thinking of making weargear promotions make units do diferent damage types.
And giving diferent units diferent armor promotions.
So a Space Marine tactical (strenth 6) would be a strenth 2 unit starting with the promotions: Power Armor (bonus defense vs lighter weapons) and Bolter (+4 Bolter Damage).
Buying a plasma rifle would remove the +4 Bolter Damage and replace them with +4 Plasma Damage.
This way, tanks and heavy wehicles could be made imune to certain damage types so a guardsman could newer kill a baneblade, unles he has the right weapon.
Atack, yes. Capture cities and units no. Can you imagine a group of marines walking through enemy fire, seting up their heavy bolters calmly and shooting at all the buildings around them?
I am basing the entire scenario of the mod around the premise that the diferent armies have landed their scout forces on a planet.
Now these forces have to establish a base and justify the sumoning of the huge army.
So, terain improvements will mostly be similar to regular civ.
Cotages, Agro-Compounds (farm), Bunkers (forts), Mines, Rafineries,...
Generaly not that diferent from regular civ.
The base buildings will be of two types.
Militairy and civilian.
Civilian buildings are more or less similar to modern age vanila civ. Militairy are taken from the PC game.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Sounds fine. Bombardment units like Whirlwhinds and such should also have collateral.
Jump troops as city killers? That doesn't make much sense to me. If anything I'd think jump troops would be even less valuable in a city, since they have less room to manuever because of buildings everywhere. Jump troops as skirmishers (withdraw chance) or marksmen seems much better.
Also, logic would suggest that melee units would be better in cramped urban environments (easier to close to range because of short firing lanes and lots of cover), while ranged troops would be better out in the open (where they can take full advantage of their superior range).
Statistically speaking, first strikes are more useful on high strength units.
They're not particularly useful on low strength units because they will probably lose the round, and so do no damage in the first strike.
I remember reading a careful analysis once; strength promotions are a straight multiplicative multiplier, they are equally valuable at all strength levels. Whereas first strikes will increase the probability of winning the fight much more if your strength is already higher than theirs than they will if your strength is lower.
I'd also be very careful about adding lots of first strikes to units, you can end up getting weird results like that, and the combat odds calculator starts to be very wrong. You get much more variance in combat results with first strikes.
I'd also be very careful about sticking too close the straight tabletop stats.
Just give them a higher defense strength than attack strength. And a heavy bolter isn't the only support weapon; semi-artillery weapons like plasma cannons or D-cannons are certainly good for digging units out of defenses.
But I guess you could keep support weapons as stack guards, and then the artillery vehicles as offensive artillery for breaking defensive lines.
This sounds pretty workable.
Hmm. This sounds possible, but I think bonuses to various armor types would be much easier to get working.
So a baneblade won't die to guardsmen because it is strength 20 and the guardsmen are strength 4, and their lasguns or grenade launchers or whatever have no bonus vs vehicles.
Remember that small differences in strength have huge impacts on combat outcomes; a 20% strength difference (5 vs 6) gives ~75% win chance.
So a 5x strength difference probably means you could throw 15+ guardsmen squads at the baneblade and still not kill it. Even worse if it has first strikes....
This is about the best you can do.
Ok, standard buildings. I guess you could use particular buildings as build requirements or free xp/promotion givers for particular unit types.
It will be a bit silly though for orks to be building universities and marketplaces.
And necrons should adapt Scions of Patria mechanics.
PPQ_Purple
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They are city killers in the sense that they can damage the defenders and withdrawl.
And thus allow you to weaken them enough for your base units to take the city.
A few Assault Marine Squads and a single Tactical Squad will do the job of say 10 normal tactical squads and with fewer loses.
Jump troops also have the advantage of jumping over any traps, kill zones and other things that might inhibit them.
Need to close the distance?
Jump!
Need to come so close to that guner that he cant shoot his Heavy bolter no more?
Jump!
Need to pass around that blocked off ally?
Jump!
In a urban enviroment, the jet pack becomes invaluable making jump units a more expencive but more worth while version of asault units.
Also, shorter range units (think SMGs) with bolters, flamers ect. are more efective in close quarters while a heavy weapon would be usles.
But you have to remember that city batles in civ are mostly not urban combat. They are your army charging the rampats of an enemy base.
And in such conditions, the weapon type that has the greatest potential to avoid the kill zones, mine fields and machine guns is the one that is going to win.
A squad of khorne berserkers charging at a IG bunker... bad idea.
As far as I recal, 1st strikes meens that you hit your enemy before combat begins.
And they damage the enemy reguardles of who is stronger.
I have read an article about it in the turtorials section or somewhere like that.
I will have to check this.
Again, this will depend on the weapon being used. I was thinking of allowing plasma canons and grenade launchers to make ranged atacks.
Becouse even 100 guarsmen shooting their las canons would not kill a baneblade.
Take a bilion men, hand them AK-47s and let them shoot at a tank.
On the other hand, give that guarsmen a melta gun, and he sudenly gets +10 melta damage that rips the baneblade in two.
In WHTT there are a lot of things like that that are tide turners.
Melta weapons for instance Ignore all Armor.
A guardsmen squad with melta guns would be tank killers.
They would lose all first strikes and would suck vs infantry. But they would be able to kill a baneblade.
That is about my idea. With the guard and orks adopting banor and necrons adopting scion like mechanics.
orlanth
Storm God. Yarr!
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Watch out for the limitation that each civ can only have access to a max of one unit from any single unitclass (we had lots of problems with that before). That's fine when there's only one possible version per civ (e.g. Warpspiders replaces Tactical Marines); but if you want a civ to have more than one Heavy Infantry unit available, you need to use more than one unitclass, and then use the UNITCOMBAT values to set the combat type for those classes (Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Melee etc as described by Ahriman):
PPQ_Purple
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This has already been discuses above.
The class was explained to refer to a unit type semanticly and not in game.
Witch also explains how guardsmen are in the same group as tactical marines.
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