AND SVN Build Thread

45°38'N-13°47'E;12243618 said:

I know, I'm trying to change the mod so that UN can still be a wonder and grant eligibility (which cannot be granted by a project); I've released this part as it is now so that people can try it and tell me their feelings about it, but it's not finished yet.
As for your question, well, if there's only 1 civilization left, you can be the only one elected. When the next election triggers, you can only abstain and on the next election again, you'll be able to be elected (and in fact you will, being the only candidate). I don't think it's a problem because being the only civ in the world, you don't need UN anymore... what's the use in passing resolutions if you apply them only to yourself?

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OK, work-in-progress is cool. That really makes me feel better.

As far as being the only civilization left, I think you can still pass the Single Currency resolution and get +1 trade route per city.

One area I feel needs some work (merged with c2c) is the AI's trade intelligence - as in there overall understanding of the value of certain things. Such as Horses, or a technology. Currently its way too easy to exploit the AI via diplomacy into making terribly one-sided deals such as ALL their money, some tech [ units if unit traiding is on], a bunch of resources - just for Horses or Iron as an example. Other examples include contacts, the AI values other civ contacts way too much, its easy to exploit this by selling contacts over and over for ALL of the AI's gold.
Koshling recently fixed all these problems and the AI is much smarter and nearly impossible to exploit via diplomacy.
The reason I bring this up is because I feel like Tech trading, Advanced Diplomacy (many of the options) are simply not usable for me because its far too easy to get lopsided, unfair deals that put AI at a major disadvantage.

On the topic of AI, I know koshling has plans to fix the AI's incompetence regarding Great Commanders, im not sure if this is done yet or if it will be done shortly, but I think this would be an important feature to inherit from c2c too. Currently this is another feature that is simply not usable for me because it puts the AI at too much of a disadvantage.
Surround and destroy is another example.
Personally, I feel like these features should be removed as options until AI can use them (or at least give players a warning or something in the game setup).

Sgtslick said:

One area I feel needs some work (merged with c2c) is the AI's trade intelligence - as in there overall understanding of the value of certain things. Such as Horses, or a technology. Currently its way too easy to exploit the AI via diplomacy into making terribly one-sided deals such as ALL their money, some tech [ units if unit traiding is on], a bunch of resources - just for Horses or Iron as an example

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Never mind strategic resources; I have seen the AI trade virtually every single one of their resources (strategic included) for a single one of my lemons or apples.

I dont play with surround and destroy as the AI does not know how to use it and it ends up becoming very one sided. Reprogramming the AI to use it might add a lot of CPU overhead and lengthen end of turn times. I would thus suggest removing it completely.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12242327 said:

Rev 617

Fixed a small bug which was causing ineligibility for more than 1 term for AP Resident. Now it should work as it was supposed to, for UN Secretary only.

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Thanks for being so responsive to the fixes in v616 and v617!! You guys rock!

So far - no storms appearing where they shouldn't, and AP is WAP. Will let you know when I get to UN how it goes.

Arkatakor said:

Never mind strategic resources; I have seen the AI trade virtually every single one of their resources (strategic included) for a single one of my lemons or apples.

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How about a save game and screenshot then. I find the AI asking too much Gold for a Tech now. I've yet had a situation to trade Apples or Lemons to the AI but will watch for it. I rarely get apples or lemons though.

I dont play with surround and destroy as the AI does not know how to use it and it ends up becoming very one sided. Reprogramming the AI to use it might add a lot of CPU overhead and lengthen end of turn times. I would thus suggest removing it completely.

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Even koshling has said fixing SaD will be a project for him. I agree it should be removed from AND.

JosEPh

Now bear with me here because I saw this years ago.. But there was a mod called lead from behind or whatever where if you had a great general that had a fair chance of losing but still better combat chances then the rest of the stack the game would have the rest of the stack defend first to keep the great general alive longer. Could we have that implemented as a game option?

Edit: that's the ticket http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335041

Iirc, that has been a part of AND for sometime now. Back when Afforess was actively making this Mod.

JosEPh

Vokarya said:

Is there a way we could keep the UN as a building? Maybe by triggering a project on the building's completion? I know buildings don't have the <EveryoneSpecialBuilding> tag, but I feel like anything that is an actual structure should be a Wonder. Also, I feel like you shouldn't be forced to build both the UN Project and UN Mission at once (whoever gets the UN should be automatically eligible). I like the Mission for eligibility, but I'm not so sure about making the baseline a Project.

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I've tried hard for some days now to make it possible for a GW (UN) to have "Everyonespecialbuilding", but it looks like it's harder than expected. I've done some changes to the dll but for some reason even if you've built GW UN (I've made it a GW again), you're not able to build UN Mission Specialbuilding. I don't understand what's missing, for some reason it doesn't work.

As a workaround, if I'm not able to change EveryoneSpecialBuilding tag and adapt it to GW (instead of Projects), I'm proposing to make United Nation a GW again and then UN Missions should require some more advanced tech (like Globalization, or Mass Media + some other advanced tech). That way UN Mission technically could still be built before UN but that wouldn't happen that often, I think. What do you think about it?

JosEPh_II said:

How about a save game and screenshot then. I find the AI asking too much Gold for a Tech now. I've yet had a situation to trade Apples or Lemons to the AI but will watch for it. I rarely get apples or lemons though.

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Here is a screenshot one from an old thread of mine:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=428065

This issue has not been fixed; I am still seeing this in my current games with the latest revisions. I guess to fix this problem one would have to save a game right before the AI offers such a trade to debug exactly what the AI is thinking to reach such a conclusion.

@Ark,
The issues in that link have been addressed in C2C. And it should be available to AND thru the shared DLL. I'm not saying you're not experiencing this, all I can say is I'm not. The Diplomacy section has not been acting like that June 2011 thread link for sometime. So are we using different Options that affect Diplomacy? I use Adv. Diplo all the time.

Actually a Screenshot series of the Diplomacy screen transactions and the save of that turn should help. Plus of course having Logging Enabled and the Log files. Clear the Log files before each game session. Cuts down on the clutter.

JosEPh

I don't find actually too strange this kind of trade, although I'm also not experiencing something so "extreme". The techs you were receiving were really old and cheap techs, while usually apple is a very rare resource. So basically AI is getting one needed resource in exchange for nothing (from its point of view).

Yeah i've seen WAY worse trades than that. The main thing is gold, like I will offer horses and get $13,000, every spare resource they have and every spare tech they have - as long as they aren't big techs - say past like renaissance, which they view as being worth like $15,000 each.

Stone is another very abusable resource, you offer stone and they don't have it, then you better have a semi-trailer ready to take home there counter-offer. You can reap HUGE bounties by trading it. In games i've purposely waited till a civ has 3 or 4 new techs as opposed to 1 or 2 before trading stone, not to mention the thousands of gold and ALL available resources..

Incense is another (not as big), late game some of the sea resources net huge amounts, iron obviously and thats about it.

Unit trading is totally out of whack when I have used it, which I pretty much never do anymore. You can buy godlike units with 5 promotions for like $300 sometimes.. Not to mention if you have stone or horses and they don't, you are able to get every single unit they have on offer pretty much.

This was (imo) one of the reasons scaled diplomacy deals is so important. If on slower game speeds you could just abuse these things and rinse and repeat. The AI couldn't stand a chance..

Sgtslick said:

Yeah i've seen WAY worse trades than that. The main thing is gold, like I will offer horses and get $13,000, every spare resource they have and every spare tech they have - as long as they aren't big techs - say past like renaissance, which they view as being worth like $15,000 each.
...
This was (imo) one of the reasons scaled diplomacy deals is so important. If on slower game speeds you could just abuse these things and rinse and repeat. The AI couldn't stand a chance..

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Yeah, the Diplomacy code was complicated enough in general - the AI diplomacy stuff was a nightmare. I don't have fond memories.

Also, I don't think simplistic scaling would work well in diplomacy, you would really have to develop a strategy for each of the specific gamespeeds, which is not ideal and a lot more work.

Hey There! Will you graduate this spring Afforess?

We havn't mucked things up to much have we? 45* keeps a close watch on the "ol' girl". He won't let me get Too radical.

JosEPh

Afforess said:

Yeah, the Diplomacy code was complicated enough in general - the AI diplomacy stuff was a nightmare. I don't have fond memories.

Also, I don't think simplistic scaling would work well in diplomacy, you would really have to develop a strategy for each of the specific gamespeeds, which is not ideal and a lot more work.

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Exactly my thought. The problem is that I don't think I'm skilled enough (yet, at least) to start this kind of changes in the core of the mod.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12248403 said:

As a workaround, if I'm not able to change EveryoneSpecialBuilding tag and adapt it to GW (instead of Projects), I'm proposing to make United Nation a GW again and then UN Missions should require some more advanced tech (like Globalization, or Mass Media + some other advanced tech). That way UN Mission technically could still be built before UN but that wouldn't happen that often, I think. What do you think about it?

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Vokarya, any comments about this idea? I've done some more testing and it looks like I'm not able to make EveryoneSpecialBuilding tag work with GW; I've changed the dll code but for some reason it doesn't work as expected.
So the only other viable solution I see, is making UN a Great Wonder again (requires Mass Media) and UN Mission (I'd like to rename it UN Agency or UN Embassy) will again be a Great Wonder (maximum 3 of them in the whole world, maximum 1 per civ) which requires Mass Media + Applied Economics. UN Embassy will have a higher cost and same benefits as UN (might be renamed UN Headquarters?); this is because technically speaking you could build UN Embassies before UN but of course building UN should be the first UN-related Wonder. Making UN cheaper than UN Embassies should do the trick (there's no reason in building first a more expensive GW which requires more advanced techs, right?).
Of course everyone else is free to comment.

What I've seen in my test games is that interestingly some smaller civs are sometimes able to be elected UN Secretary. I think it's a good idea to boost smaller civs a little without actually touching anything in production/research fields.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12250970 said:

Exactly my thought. The problem is that I don't think I'm skilled enough (yet, at least) to start this kind of changes in the core of the mod.

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But as I said Koshling has already fixed this problem in c2c; The AI is much smarter diplomatically, you will never get lobsided deals like this. Thats why I was bringing it up, since you have merged other stuff from c2c (such as scaling deals) - I was hinting that koshlings changes to AI trading 'intelligence' would be a prime candidate for further pillaging

45°38'N-13°47'E;12250996 said:

Vokarya, any comments about this idea? I've done some more testing and it looks like I'm not able to make EveryoneSpecialBuilding tag work with GW; I've changed the dll code but for some reason it doesn't work as expected.
So the only other viable solution I see, is making UN a Great Wonder again (requires Mass Media) and UN Mission (I'd like to rename it UN Agency or UN Embassy) will again be a Great Wonder (maximum 3 of them in the whole world, maximum 1 per civ) which requires Mass Media + Applied Economics. UN Embassy will have a higher cost and same benefits as UN (might be renamed UN Headquarters?); this is because technically speaking you could build UN Embassies before UN but of course building UN should be the first UN-related Wonder. Making UN cheaper than UN Embassies should do the trick (there's no reason in building first a more expensive GW which requires more advanced techs, right?).
Of course everyone else is free to comment.

What I've seen in my test games is that interestingly some smaller civs are sometimes able to be elected UN Secretary. I think it's a good idea to boost smaller civs a little without actually touching anything in production/research fields.

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That looks like it will work. Also, if you want to stop players from building the UN Mission before the United Nations, I think all you have to do is have the United Nations REPLACE the UN Mission. That way, United Nations will prevent UN Mission from showing up on any player's build list until the headquarters is built. The player with the UN will still be able to build a UN Mission after the United Nations is completed, but you can increase the count of Missions allowed by 1 to compensate. Does this sound good? Is this something that you can test?

EDIT: You also may want to check if UN Mission appears on the build list once a player has United Nations building somewhere. I think I had some problems with a building line of Training Dojo - Master's Dojo - Shaolin Temple. The Temple was a Wonder, and at least once, I discovered that I couldn't build any Master's Dojos while Shaolin Temple was unbuilt. So that would be one thing to test.

Vokarya said:

That looks like it will work. Also, if you want to stop players from building the UN Mission before the United Nations, I think all you have to do is have the United Nations REPLACE the UN Mission. That way, United Nations will prevent UN Mission from showing up on any player's build list until the headquarters is built. The player with the UN will still be able to build a UN Mission after the United Nations is completed, but you can increase the count of Missions allowed by 1 to compensate. Does this sound good? Is this something that you can test?

EDIT: You also may want to check if UN Mission appears on the build list once a player has United Nations building somewhere. I think I had some problems with a building line of Training Dojo - Master's Dojo - Shaolin Temple. The Temple was a Wonder, and at least once, I discovered that I couldn't build any Master's Dojos while Shaolin Temple was unbuilt. So that would be one thing to test.

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It could work, I'll do some tests and will let you know. Thank your for this advice!

Vokarya said:

That looks like it will work. Also, if you want to stop players from building the UN Mission before the United Nations, I think all you have to do is have the United Nations REPLACE the UN Mission. That way, United Nations will prevent UN Mission from showing up on any player's build list until the headquarters is built. The player with the UN will still be able to build a UN Mission after the United Nations is completed, but you can increase the count of Missions allowed by 1 to compensate. Does this sound good? Is this something that you can test?

EDIT: You also may want to check if UN Mission appears on the build list once a player has United Nations building somewhere. I think I had some problems with a building line of Training Dojo - Master's Dojo - Shaolin Temple. The Temple was a Wonder, and at least once, I discovered that I couldn't build any Master's Dojos while Shaolin Temple was unbuilt. So that would be one thing to test.

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I've done a quick test and no, it doesn't work. That's because a building replacing another doesn't hide the second building from the list of available buildings. It's obsoleting that hides another building. If I have UN replace UN Mission and I have both Mass Media and Applied Economics, both buildings are in the available buildings list and both can be built in any order. Then if I build UN Mission, it can be replaced by UN but that's not what I wanted. I've also tried BuildingClassNeededs and PrereqBuildingClasses but those don't work as I'd need.