Civics Improvements Suggestions

Those civics seem reasonable: nothing that makes me scream at any rate. :)
 
Those civics seem reasonable: nothing that makes me scream at any rate. :)

1) Me too.
2) What about revolutions? Do you want to cut their effect completely or are they not listed only because there is no change? I always play with rev on and it is an important issue for me :)
 
I don't play with Revolutions now.
I know there're players who plain won't.
So, I guess, it's good idea to put Revolution idx here with the obvious caveat that they're for Revolutions players.
 
1) Me too.
2) What about revolutions? Do you want to cut their effect completely or are they not listed only because there is no change? I always play with rev on and it is an important issue for me :)

I didn't list revolution effects because they are mostly clutter for players who don't care. Same reason I also didn't list civic buildings.
 
Forgive me for my poor english. On my last 'teen' years, my vocabulary in my mother language got a lot better, while I stopped practicing my english. It turned out now my mind creates several ideas that are hard for me to put in english because of that.

I totally understand. It might be productive to redraft longer comments before you actually post them, I know I have to do that fairly often myself and I am a native english speaker. Writing is very much an artform.

Actually I'm against the small bonuses. What I'm in favor of is the multitude of civics, for the reasons I gave above.

I mistype civs instead of civics in here:


So trying to tie my ideas here: I think many details should be removed. But the number of civics is good and should remain more or less the same. Having several options of civics bring flavor to the game. Having several small bonuses on each civic brings confusion.

Ah, okay, that makes a lot more sense. What other civics would you prefer to see in the government category? I considered splitting Despotism into Autocracy and Totalitarianism, but that seemed like a distinction that better fits in the "Rule" category than "Government" category.

I think the Rule category is likely to have many options, but I don't think there are that many government distinctions.
 
Agreed on not really that many types of governments without going into nuances beyond Civilization IV game. Go ahead with Rule Civics recommendations. Then easier to agree on first version for game testing. Then tweak it after playing.
 
Maybe when we reach an agreement on Power, we may see if Despotism should be split or not. The major issue is stability, but that's something you're not considering.

BTW, Revolutions seem to be a lot different here then they were in LoR. Back there it was truly hard to expand because of it. In AND I didn't see this happening and I could expand a lot in the early game (I mean this for Gigantic only, on Duel revolution just destroys you on your second city).

The difference between an early Despotism and the late Autocracy is that the latter is a lot more stable then the former, mostly because of your size on the early and late games. This would be the most important change. But this can be gained by other civics of other columns that are not available for early despotism. If this can be done, then Autocracy may be combined with Despotism in a single civic as you suggested.
 
I'm kind of unsure about Federal - sure, it gives you -25% to all maintenance, but that's about it gives. Perhaps lower the -% to production/mil. production?
 
I'm kind of unsure about Federal - sure, it gives you -25% to all maintenance, but that's about it gives. Perhaps lower the -% to production/mil. production?

Yeah Federation is the civic I was least sure about. I removed the bit about taxation anger and gave it +25% culture.
 
I had some broad ideas beyond the currently proposed government-category civic changes. I can't help but think the civic categories should more closely reflect the real organization of governments. The changes I am proposing would be rather sweeping and so I would like feedback before I do more than just theorize. I am not promising any of the below changes, I just want thoughts on the matter.

Basically there are 3 major branches to any government (this may be a bit US-centric, but I think it's fairly true): Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.

Right now the "Government" category represents the Executive Branch. The Rule (formerly Power) branch represents the Legislative Branch. The judicial branch is missing and I think we should add a new civic category for justice.

I think the remaining civic categories should loosely be based on departments/ministries most governments have. Military, Welfare, Economy, Religion all line up fairly well with real world analogues. Society doesn't make sense as a civic category - why is a government dictating its societal structure to the population - that would only occur in a totalitarianistic government. That civic category should be axed.

There are a number of major ministries/departments not represented well by the civic categories that could be added as well. Foreign Affairs seems a really interesting idea - a civilization might have a Isolationist foreign affair civic, or a civic that pays tributes to all civilizations at peace with them (to encourage them not to attack), or a civic that gives "foreign aid" to the weakest civilizations, etc. These would all effect diplomacy greatly - who wants to attack a civilization giving you 25gp/turn for free, when war means no more tributes? There seems like a lot of interesting possibilities.

Another interesting civic category might be Immigration. Does your government permit any internal movement between cities (maybe unhappy populations will move from one of your cities with lots of unhappiness to one with food and happiness). Or maybe you permit foreign emmigration too, and some citizens might leave and settle elsewhere (bringing the neighbor civilization your culture and population). You could use immigration to export your culture, or to lock down the borders and let no one leave. I know interest in immigration mechanics has been expressed before.

So to summarize:

Remove Society Category
Add Justice, Foreign Affairs, and (maybe) Immigration.

Thoughts? Other missing categories?
 
Society doesn't make sense as a civic category - why is a government dictating its societal structure to the population - that would only occur in a totalitarianistic government. That civic category should be axed.

I dont agree on this. Who said that civics are (always) representation of goverment choises? Who said that everithing in the game are always govermental choises? E.g. tech reseach. You as a player choose what to research, but how would had the Pharaos decide to research Ceremonila Burrial? :lol:
So it should not be removed only because of this one reason.
I am not all against of removing it, but...

What I think should be removed is the Feudal civic. Does anyone ever use it?

There are a number of major ministries/departments not represented well by the civic categories that could be added as well. Foreign Affairs seems a really interesting idea - a civilization might have a Isolationist foreign affair civic, or a civic that pays tributes to all civilizations at peace with them (to encourage them not to attack), or a civic that gives "foreign aid" to the weakest civilizations, etc. These would all effect diplomacy greatly - who wants to attack a civilization giving you 25gp/turn for free, when war means no more tributes? There seems like a lot of interesting possibilities.

I love the idea :goodjob:

Another interesting civic category might be Immigration. Does your government permit any internal movement between cities (maybe unhappy populations will move from one of your cities with lots of unhappiness to one with food and happiness). Or maybe you permit foreign emmigration too, and some citizens might leave and settle elsewhere (bringing the neighbor civilization your culture and population). You could use immigration to export your culture, or to lock down the borders and let no one leave. I know interest in immigration mechanics has been expressed before.

:bowdown:

So to summarize:

Remove Society Category
Add Justice, Foreign Affairs, and (maybe) Immigration.

Thoughts? Other missing categories?

Education maybe? It one category I liked in C2C.


There is a category I have in my mind for a long time, but I think most people will find it unnecessarry. However I put it down here:

Values
Things that your society value the most and what the goverment tries to affect according their goals.
These should be small bonuses only, but changig them should not couse anarchy at all (just time to change between them).
Some values I think of:
  • Family: Cities need less food to grow but higher war :(
  • War pride: Lower war :(
  • Hedonism: +:culture:
  • Faith: +:) with state :religion: , :( penalty for non state :religion:
  • Information: some bonus for scientists and spies (unsure what)
  • etc.
Just an idea.
 
I had some broad ideas beyond the currently proposed government-category civic changes. I can't help but think the civic categories should more closely reflect the real organization of governments. The changes I am proposing would be rather sweeping and so I would like feedback before I do more than just theorize. I am not promising any of the below changes, I just want thoughts on the matter.

Basically there are 3 major branches to any government (this may be a bit US-centric, but I think it's fairly true): Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.

Right now the "Government" category represents the Executive Branch. The Rule (formerly Power) branch represents the Legislative Branch. The judicial branch is missing and I think we should add a new civic category for justice.

I think the remaining civic categories should loosely be based on departments/ministries most governments have. Military, Welfare, Economy, Religion all line up fairly well with real world analogues. Society doesn't make sense as a civic category - why is a government dictating its societal structure to the population - that would only occur in a totalitarianistic government. That civic category should be axed.

There are a number of major ministries/departments not represented well by the civic categories that could be added as well. Foreign Affairs seems a really interesting idea - a civilization might have a Isolationist foreign affair civic, or a civic that pays tributes to all civilizations at peace with them (to encourage them not to attack), or a civic that gives "foreign aid" to the weakest civilizations, etc. These would all effect diplomacy greatly - who wants to attack a civilization giving you 25gp/turn for free, when war means no more tributes? There seems like a lot of interesting possibilities.

Another interesting civic category might be Immigration. Does your government permit any internal movement between cities (maybe unhappy populations will move from one of your cities with lots of unhappiness to one with food and happiness). Or maybe you permit foreign emmigration too, and some citizens might leave and settle elsewhere (bringing the neighbor civilization your culture and population). You could use immigration to export your culture, or to lock down the borders and let no one leave. I know interest in immigration mechanics has been expressed before.

So to summarize:

Remove Society Category
Add Justice, Foreign Affairs, and (maybe) Immigration.

Thoughts? Other missing categories?

More or less it's what I was planning to do months ago before I knew you were coming back. :)
And I was also thinking of adding Immigration civics. So I'm all in favour of these changes. :goodjob:
 
I quite like the idea of education as a civic, but what would you put in a potential judicial category? Immigration I'm more dubious about, especially if one of the civic categories ends up being called "Open Borders", which is just silly, given that's a time-honoured diplomatic treaty in Civ IV.
 
Foreign Affairs need more elaboration because the Advanced Diplomacy do good job to start satiate peaceful players. I don't want that category to confuse the game. Also immigration is tightly intertwined with foreign affairs so I think immigration should suffice. Other categories look good to me.
 
I dont agree on this. Who said that civics are (always) representation of goverment choises? Who said that everithing in the game are always govermental choises? E.g. tech reseach. You as a player choose what to research, but how would had the Pharaos decide to research Ceremonila Burrial? :lol:
So it should not be removed only because of this one reason.
I am not all against of removing it, but...

Society feels like a weird holdover from BTS civics. If you look at the civics they perhaps most closely match BTS civics. I am pretty sure that is why that have been allowed to survive so long.

It feels strange that a government should be able to dictate "Nationalism" or "Liberal" society policies. I mean I could understand it if this was the "Propoganda" civic category, but it's not. :lol:


Education maybe? It one category I liked in C2C.

Maybe I am the only one who remembers, but RoM had an education category. It was removed eventually in favor of a "Welfare" category that merged healthcare and education.

I thought of re-adding education back, but I don't really like it as a game mechanic. The civics would all be too similar. They would all be +X :science: at the expense of gold, or maintenance, or upkeep. And that would really only benefit the richest players, since the players with the most wealth would be most able to use the more expensive, faster science education policies, which would allow them to tech even faster, and cause them to get ahead even further.

I just don't see a balanced outcome or interesting civics from an education branch. It's not nearly as interesting as Foreign Affairs or Immigration.

There is a category I have in my mind for a long time, but I think most people will find it unnecessarry. However I put it down here:

Values
Things that your society value the most and what the goverment tries to affect according their goals.
These should be small bonuses only, but changig them should not couse anarchy at all (just time to change between them).
Some values I think of:
  • Family: Cities need less food to grow but higher war :(
  • War pride: Lower war :(
  • Hedonism: +:culture:
  • Faith: +:) with state :religion: , :( penalty for non state :religion:
  • Information: some bonus for scientists and spies (unsure what)
  • etc.
Just an idea.

Reminds me of a propaganda category.

I quite like the idea of education as a civic, but what would you put in a potential judicial category? Immigration I'm more dubious about, especially if one of the civic categories ends up being called "Open Borders", which is just silly, given that's a time-honoured diplomatic treaty in Civ IV.

See the above on why I don't like education as a category.

About the Justice category, obviously their is vigilantism, as well as Hammurabic Law, Natural Law, Inquisitorial law, Adversarial law, etc. I think there will be no problem in terms of options there.

Immigration...yes..hmm. I will give it more thought. It was the weakest of my ideas IMO.

Foreign Affairs need more elaboration because the Advanced Diplomacy do good job to start satiate peaceful players. I don't want that category to confuse the game. Also immigration is tightly intertwined with foreign affairs so I think immigration should suffice. Other categories look good to me.

Immigration and Foreign Affairs are sufficiently different to be separate civic categories. Mixing them would be more confusing than not.
 
Immigration and Foreign Affairs are sufficiently different to be separate civic categories. Mixing them would be more confusing than not.

I'll need to see more, but based on your record here I'm sure it'll be fine.
 
I like the ideas of adding justice and foreign affairs. I think one we should add would be Territory Governance (probably with a better name) to represent how far flung/ non-capitol cities and territory is governed. This would be a good area to add small civilization vs large civics. These could be either decentralized or centralized with each benefitting a small or large empire. Possible options could be:

Tribal Villages - starting civic, move 3 city limit here
City State- Ancient loosely united cities exert control over immediate surroundings(think ancient Greece)
Provincial- strong central government with out laying territory ruled by loyal governors (Rome)
Manorial/Fiefs- power held largely by local lords / land owners who swear allegiance to ruler (Medieval Europe)
Some kind of centralized medieval system
Centralized (modern unified nation states)
Federal/Confederation (moved from government category)

This to me would be a better system than using current government civics to balance small vs large. Hope I explained this well, I may expand on if needed when I'm not on mobile.
 
I like the ideas of adding justice and foreign affairs. I think one we should add would be Territory Governance (probably with a better name) to represent how far flung/ non-capitol cities and territory is governed. This would be a good area to add small civilization vs large civics. These could be either decentralized or centralized with each benefitting a small or large empire. Possible options could be:

Tribal Villages - starting civic, move 3 city limit here
City State- Ancient loosely united cities exert control over immediate surroundings(think ancient Greece)
Provincial- strong central government with out laying territory ruled by loyal governors (Rome)
Manorial/Fiefs- power held largely by local lords / land owners who swear allegiance to ruler (Medieval Europe)
Some kind of centralized medieval system
Centralized (modern unified nation states)
Federal/Confederation (moved from government category)

This to me would be a better system than using current government civics to balance small vs large. Hope I explained this well, I may expand on if needed when I'm not on mobile.

Interesting idea. Bureaucracy could be your medieval centralized system.
 
So here are more or less my ideas for Foreign Affairs civics:

Isolationism (Starting Civic, no Tech requirement)
No Upkeep

Appeasement (Available at Currency)
Low Upkeep
Pay 5% of :gold: as tribute to most powerful civilizations
+2 relations with most powerful civilizations

Imperium (Available at Feudalism)
Low Upkeep
Seizes 50% of foreign connectedness profits with your cities from civilizations weaker than yourself
+33% :commerce: from foreign connectedness yield
-4 relations with civilizations weaker than yourself

Protectionism (Available at Mercantilism)
Low Upkeep
No Foreign Trade
+33% :commerce: from domestic connectedness yield
-2 relations with all civilizations


Interventionism (Available at Political Philosophy)
High Upkeep
-50% War Weariness
+1 relations with other interventionist civilizations
-1 relations with isolationist and protectionist civilizations
Civilizations can not cease relations with you
Civilizations at war more likely to allow diplomacy
+25% :commerce: from foreign connectedness yield

Redevelopment (Available at Social Contract)
Medium Upkeep
Pay 5% of :gold: to weakest civilizations
+2 relations with the weakest civilizations
Forces "Rite of Passage" agreement with weakest civilizations

Yes, now you can be a jerk with your civic choices. To be clear about the Pay 5% of :gold: options, you pay 5% of your gross :gold: income, and that 5% is split amongst the eligible civilizations, it is not 5% each.
 
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