Mayan Mayhem: A Huge Deity Histographic

So during my war turns, each turn roughly partitions into steps.

1. I wake all my units.

2. I disconnect any resources I have hooked up... at least if I think the AIs have any to spare. I then see if the AIs have any deals for resources... but not with an AIs I have any deals for luxuries going on to make sure I won't end up putting free money into the economy from nowhere.

3. I disconnect my capital. At this point once or twice, I've opened the F4 screen and talked to the AI to see if any AIs have a resource or luxury available which says "0". This way I know I could theoretically "obtain" a resource or luxury from them later, if I gifted them an appropriate city.

4. I reconnect my capital.

5. I pick up gold, maps, and techs tied into luxury/resource deals for gpt with the AI.

6. I disconnect my capital.

7. I connect my capital again, and acquire luxuries/resources (fortunately on this map, I've had before iron and saltpeter native... unfortunately neither Leo's or the Pyramids got built on my home island) via gpt.

8. I re-capture any cities that have flipped. Note that I do all luxuries/resource deals first to keep the cost of luxuries/resources down as much as I can.

9. I take care of any units that have landed in my territory or near enough my territory that my cavalries can retreat to safety if needed. I've started NOT leaving artillery type units in captured cities (unless I've just captured it on the turn I put the artillery type unit in the city) to avoid losing them if they flip. This means first shelling them out with cannons so far, and hopefully artillery proper soon enough. I also fish for leaders here. Before I generally had placed any elite stars into an army, but after some consideration, I've started, generally, putting cavalry which haven't attacked into an army, so they have 4 unit movement, and thus can go attack a city immediately.

10. I capture cities and clear out any needed AI units around those cities. I move workers along placing done rails as desired co-ordinating this with capturing cities. In other words, I basically attack and move workers in places near where I will attack before having them do any work elsewhere.

11. I take settlers and plant them in gaps in my newly captured lands to expand my borders.

12. Other worker and settler action, along with fortifying my newly captured cities and my newly planted cities. I've never seen a city flip immediately on the inter-turn after capturing it (though the next inter-turn I feel sure I've seen sometime). So, if a city has barracks (or if I owned Sun Tzu's and had it on the same continent as my captured cities), I think this means so long as I have the new cities on the rail network, I can fortify any wounded units in the captured city, and it will heal the next turn, so long as it doesn't get attacked. I haven't done this with armies, or all that much really, but in principle, this might also help quell a little more resistance.

13. I cycle through my cities making sure they do what I want them to do (I'm by no means thorough in this regard).

I also make sure to re-adjust the luxury slider, even if my weariness hasn't jumped, as the disconnecting/reconnecting of imported luxuries needs corrected, I think, once you have the new luxuries in place for happiness purposes. In other words, say I have 10% luxuries going and I only want 10% luxuries again next turn. Well, I first bump it to 20%, then push it back to 10%, which changes the citizens faces to what the now imported luxuries tell them we have.
 
So, before I attacked in 650 things looked something like this:



I gained two more MGLs attacking Persia, and cleared them off their home continent:

 
Multiple forests around a city might make a capture more difficult, however, I feel that I've liked some of these captures better than any of my other ones:



Note that before Replaceable Parts as an industrious tribe it takes two native workers and two slaves to chop a forest in a single turn.
 
With that many armies, and 40 some percent of the territory occupied, I wonder if I should start putting hospitals in my core. I haven't built factories, and don't plan on it to avoid production pollution.

Here I have some MapStat screenshots, which should help understand some progression of the game so far:

























 
Looking at City of Armies (Ugarit) in 650 AD I notice it has 26 culture. Since it only built the Military Academy which produces 1 culture per turn, I have 47 armies above, I used an MGL to rush the Military Academy, and I've lost 2 or 3 armies in defeats, this implies that I've spawned some 24 military great leaders. Though 24 might come as high for this type of game, it does seem high enough to suggest that the increased number of elites of the militaristic trait probably doesn't outweigh the industrious trait in terms of potential score.
 
I like this one: Score of 6002 in 660. Still no Replaceable Parts from the AIs.
 
So, I don't think I've seen any 3 defense army with at least 6 hitpoints attacked out in the open before tanks, but starting the Sumerian war in 660 I decided to use only green armies to create army boxes:





I razed Kutha, so I could create the second box. I would have, of course, preferred to use an infantry, fortress, and artillery as Lord Emsworth has excellently pointed out for this, but oh well.
 
This is very impressive! Can I just ask where you cut your roads to your capital? When I pillage my roads just outside the capital, the irrigation and the work that has been done on the tiles disappear as well! Do you then irrigate again straight after? :)
 
I never built any roads around any tile immediately adjacent to the capital, except in one spot. In other words, if I didn't have any roads whatsoever, and I had a one movement unit in my capital, there exist 8 possible spots my unit could move to and finish its turn. The other spot (a regular, not a bonus, grassland square) has a road built and cut a few times every turn.

Before I had railroads, I kept three warriors and 6 industrious workers on that spot, or 4 industrious workers on that spot and two working on some project very close by (in the current archipelago game, the one with screenshots of my capital and 8 trades I played on pangea and I've abandoned it). On most turns I would pillage with a warrior, re-connect, make "trades", pillage again, and then send out gpt for luxuries. 2 would mine, as I didn't know what else to do with them, while still having them in range of the capital... it took me a few games to figure out this, as I've played a few Sid games with just 2 pillage/roading parties instead of 3. During the start of a war, before railroads (in other games also) I have used the first pillage and road build to get techs/money/get the AI to declare on me. The 2nd pillage and road build to get free military alliances. The 3rd pillage and road build to obtain luxuries/resources. I have built mines and forests in the other squares which haven't had roads. I repeat I just didn't build roads in the other 8 squares, though I know I didn't figure out I should just forget about building roads directly adjacent to my capital, except for one spot the first time I started using this sort of trick. It almost felt instinctively to build a road anywhere before leaving it.

I've also pillaged out extra sources of iron/saltpeter so I can make deals for them when desired, and execute disconnect-reconnect for horseman-knight or horseman-cavalry upgrades (which I haven't done a lot of since my war with Greece).

If you want to see more details, this game, and a conquest game coming in the update with China on a Sid large map might help you along, and you can test it to work out deals also.
 
Just the sort of response I was hoping for, great. Hmm... I understand it better now that you've explained it so good, but I will download your save to try. And of course, having just one roaded square closest to the capital makes sense - I've just been used to road everything. As for trading abroad I have understood that I have to sell my harbors in order to get this to work. Just a last question, when you finish your turn after all this connect/reconnect and end by paying gpt for a lux - is that why you don't get DOW'ed? In my first attempts I always got dow'ed for for trying this, but that was probably because I ended up withdrawing my gpt for their hard cash. And you do this when you really want a war, if I understand you correctly? On pillage nr 2. Thanks for taking the time to explain, Spoonwood! :) Will try your game now.
 
No, you don't have to sell any harbors if you disconnect the roads around your capital. If you kept roads around your capital, you could pillage at your borders instead, so long as you don't have any trade routes via a harbor. I would advise using your capital. I have the AIs set at "least aggressive". On top of this, if they don't feel at least "polite" to me, I'll generally try and gift them 100 gold (which I promptly buy back in trading) to try and improve their attitude towards me. The gpt going to them, also probably helps to keep them at peace with you. Wait... that's just to keep a sneak attack. You also have to make sure NOT to export any luxuries/resources to the AI. This wouldn't necessarily cause war, but would cause a reputation hit, and consequently make a sneak attack more likely, I think.

When I want a war, I basically make sure I can "purchase" some resource/luxury from the target AI, and that I can also re-negotiate a peace treaty. Then I open up the diplomacy screen and click on "Active" at the bottom of the screen. I re-negotiate the peace treaty with gpt going to the AI for a luxury/resource and anything else like workers (if any available) and lump sums from the AI. Now, I also do NOT export any luxuries or resources to the AI. They import luxuries or resources to me tied to the peace treaty for gpt. Then, I pillage the trade route to my capital. This results in the AI declaring on me (I don't think I did this in the Iroquois game all that much, and only figured it out in my China large game or my abandoned huge game with China, which I've mentioned in my HoF write-up thread). I try to do this on my first pillage with a resource if say I have a disconnect/reconnect for horses-knights upgrade thing going on.

Now, what if the target AI has no extra resources/luxuries available? I then try to figure out which resource luxury I have the least number of/have in some corrupt area far away from my productive core. I park one unit, as weak as I have basically (in this game, I've used javelin throwers and rifles mostly for this) one square adjacent (on a road, of course) to any of those cities. Next, I open up the diplomacy screen. I then gift those cities with the resource/luxuries to the target AI. Then, I open up the diplomacy again, and I double check to see that the target AI now has an extra resource/luxury available for sale. If not, I'd check the F2 screen to see where I still have an extra resource/luxury.

Then, if later in the game especially, I'd make sure I can pay gpt for that resource/luxury before doing any actual deals (use tax collectors/adjust tax slider temporarily as needed). Once I feel sure of this, I'll re-negotiate the peace treaty with the AI, again, with a resource/luxury coming from them with only gpt going to the target AI (you could theoretically use techs/lump sums you have also, but why would you give an AI techs/lump sums before going to war?). Then, I'll cut the trade route. Since the exporter of a luxury/resource comes as responsible for continuing the trade deal, and the resource/luxury deal comes as tied to the peace treaty, the AI declares on me.

Then I re-connect the road, and acquire gpt with my lump sums of gold if any available with any AIs with a luxury/resource available. With least aggressive AI the rate goes 18 gold for 1 gpt. I'll then sign military alliances (on turns when starting a war, if I want a military alliance), as many as possible tied to resource/luxury deals, and re-acquire all those lump sums by sending the AI gpt for resource/luxuries, along with techs or workers or maps if available. Then I'll cancel all of those deals by cutting the trade route... but the hard goods (workers/gold/maps/techs) stay with me. The deal where I leeched gpt from the AI stays in tact, since I sent them a lump sum for gpt (no resources/luxuries involved). I then reacquired the lump sum giving me both.

Then I cut the trade route once more. I re-connect and pay gpt for the luxuries. Note that I first disconnect the trade route before doing any lump sum for gpt deals, because I do NOT want to put any more money into the world economy than already exists there (which the HoF rulebook says does not work for Conquests, but even so, I'm not so sure about this... and I might not want to hurt every AIs economy as much as I could, which might result if I did this, because I want the AIs to do research for me).

HoF Rulebook Red Section said:
Giving the AI more gpt that you can afford or accepting more gpt than the AI can afford. This is disallowed as it results in putting 'free' money into the international economy. While fixed for C3C, it is banned for all versions for the sake of consistency.
I just take whatever already exists in the world's economy/workers/maps/techs and put them into my hands. Note that I haven't given the AI anything really, as all deals get cancelled immediately (except for the final one involving luxuries/resources for gpt only). I also haven't given the AI more gpt than I can afford, since all of that gpt I could have payed had I wanted to for some reason.

What I've described (as indicated by others also) comes as legal under HoF rules according to this clause
HoF Rulebook Green Section said:
GPT for Upfront (Civ/PtW/C3C)
Signing GPT for upfront compensation from the AI, and then using a declaration of war or disconnect of trade route to cancel the deal. Comes with a reputation hit in some cases, in others it is free.

I didn't come up with this. I first learned of the basic idea, and didn't understand it actually when reading a Sid succession game, where Ignas suggested something like this (Microbe seems to have noticed the basic thing long before this). Lord Emsworth explained many of the details of what you can do with this here. The only thing possibly new with me (I'm not so sure Lord Emsworth didn't hint this at me either) comes as to use the capital instead of your borderlands. After a few games of playing both ways, I definitely feel the capital easier to use on a pangea map, and it basically comes as the only option on an archipelago map (I haven't tried selling/buying harbors on and off, and it seems even more expensive).

That all said, it *can* fail (though I doubt often), or at least disappoint you. When starting a war, as I learned in my abandoned pangea Huge game with China you have to make sure you can re-negotiate the peace treaty (which you can ensure by NOT getting into any wars with the target AI before attacking them). Also, I'll mention that in this game I wanted to attack the Hittites first. They had extra incense and I think gems for a while. I didn't trade for them, as I had planned to attack them once I had built up my military, so I wanted to make sure I could get them from someone else. The turn I wanted to start a war with them (though not the previous turn), they had no luxuries or resources to trade for, as I recall. Fortunately, I investigated one of their border cities, saw they had 7 luxuries going for them, and found some way to get them the 8th which I had, and started the war. So, I managed.
 
Unfortunately, in 660 I've started getting the "too many cities" message. So, I've decided that in coastal spots which aren't quite coastal enough, I'll buy a settler from that city, plant a new city on the more optimal coastal spot, disband the old city, and found the new city on the next turn. I'm by no means sure I have all that many skills at this. That said, Lord Emsworth did some interesting calculations a while back. I don't plan on doing this all that thoroughly, however, for any non-tundra grassland site which can grab at least two sea square I plan on settling there. I want to keep tundra areas for prisons with the AI, and I'd prefer not to have my cultural borders touching theirs at the end. More-or-less, as I do in research-oriented games, this means jamming cities into corners along a coast. It should also widen the spread of my cities for more tiles. Also, before I disband any city before Replaceable Parts, I'll place 2 industrious workers (equivalently 6 slaves), into a city so I don't have to lose any movement. After Replaceable Parts, I'll only need 1 industrious worker (not sure how many slaves I'll need). Also, though I had done a few cities before, I've started labeling more cities with a "temp" tag in their name.

The key to milking a game lies in doing some micromanaging, but not so much that you get bogged down and never finish the game. So, I always reserve the possibility of giving up on doing things better, and just doing enough to finish. After all, "the better is the enemy of the good."
 
670-score of 6212. Still no Replaceable Parts. I've decided not to keep the same armies on the boxes. Any cavalry army that say has one movement point left, and ends up green, goes to where a fully healed army sits, and fortifies. The fully healed army goes out to attack. Any cannons not used to fire on troops that have creeped into my territory, will fire at the stack in the box in my territory.

680-6421. Still no Replaceable Parts! You learned Electricity 15 turns ago Hammy... do you have a broken economy or something? I keep on bombarding the stack in my territory, and get another MGL. Sumeria has 4 cities left, three on my continent, so this turn I'll start shipping units over to the Eastern continent. I've also decided that I may as well start attacking the stack in my territory with slightly wounded armies a little, so my 8 armies blocking it can move on, if any problems arise with finishing Gilgy off . Co-ordinating this means attacking 3 times with an army, and then running it over to western ferry spot (which lies on a previous marsh square) , then unloading it in the other city, and ferrying from the eastern ferry spot (I hope I can land on that hill, and I'll take a settler over there also).

I haven't figured out how many armies I'll transport yet. This feels quite complex, but the biggest thing which would slow me down here seems hitting a snag in terms of galleons. I also have started working on abandoning junk cities for greener pastures. I've also finally put three armies into galleons in the very far east to finish off Persia on that junk tundra island . Persia has had frigates running around, so I've felt I've need some frigates to protect my galleons. They seem gone now, however.

I also stopped buying wormies last turn, and have opted to buy settlers as much as I can in towns I don't intend to keep, so that I can quickly increase my population soon enough.
 
One thing I am really interested in. You are not going to finifh for the December update, right? Just for one month I want to be the number one :D
 
One thing I am really interested in. You are not going to finifh for the December update, right? Just for one month I want to be the number one :D

I highly, highly doubt it. Even though I do tend to play a lot, and have a few days off next week, I think turn length has shot up to a couple or a few hours, so I have quite a ways to go. When you started posting you would probably finish your game before this update I actually thought about surprising you by taking down your Sid Diplomatic game, but I decided in favor of this histographic game. Well... this did sort of start back with the abandoned pangea Sid game with the Maya... I just started playing M.U.L.E. (and I didn't like the map when I looked at it again), which no has become less interesting to me than civ III. But, your game has provided some impetus for me to do this. Thank you very much for the motivation Calis!
 
690-Score to 6639. Still no replaceable parts! I thought that the AIs would have had it about 5 turns ago. I generate another MGL from the Sumerian stack, and I finish it off. I start working on the other Sumerian stack and generate another MGL.

700-Score to 6858. Still no RP. Generate another MGL against the Sumerian stack on a hill.

710-Score to 7073. Still no RP. Positions units to attack, gift Carthage a prison city, as well as two cities so that they have saltpeter. I had started railroading some of their territory last turn. Disconnect and such. This war will go raze and replace. I capture the two Sumerian cities that flipped. Then I attack Nagsu... my cavalry army wounds to 9/14, and I debate whether I should press on. Even though I land another army on the island this turn, I attack another 4/4 rifle wounding to 7-9/14. They have another 3/3 rifle, so I attack again, capture Nagsu and this ends the Sumerians. I get too aggressive attacking a Carthaginian city on my island (Malaca, which gets captured, then I place a settler into it, sell off the buildings that I can, disband it, and found a city I call city of sea squares in its place) trying to win 4 times in a row, and lose another army. I've lost like 5-7, but I still have 50 3-cavalry armies. I capture the other city on my continent, which I probably should have just razed, but oh well. I found the beachhead city on the Eastern Continent. As you can see above, it lies right next to Carthage. It cash-rushes barracks.

Then I raze Carthage. Leptis Magna has Sun Tzu's, but I raze this also. Then Cadiz gets razed. Utica gets razed after I transport over 7 or so of the cavalry armies.
 
Thinking more after I played last night, I think it actually worked out as disadvantageous to raze the Carthaginian cities, even though I don't intend to keep them. The problem in razing lies in cultural borders. What I think will work better will to capture the cities, get my settler in place, my military to take out surrounding units, sell off all the buildings that I can in the captured city, and then disband it. I won't have as many slaves, but I think the increased movement potential will pay off.
 
After thinking about the game at work today I realized I did something else not so good. I signed everyone in against Carthage. This wouldn't have posed a problem had I wanted to eliminate them. I do actually expect to stay at war until everyone else makes peace with them. I have no problem with that. However, I gifted them the first prison city. The other AIs will attack it now. So, I guess I'll have to capture it, and it'll almost surely auto-raze. At least Carthage has Tingis which simply won't get destroyed by anyone until I have marines.
 
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