New strategy: Ignore happiness

I think the biggest balance problem with this mechanic is that after getting -10 unhappniess, any additional unhappiness doesn't make any difference. -11 or -88, it's same effect!

There needs to be some mechanic in place which would make -88 really much worse then -11. That way, even when totally unhappy, happiness points will be worth, instead ignored.
 
Same with the difference between 1 and 9.

Any new thresholds will create the same mistake. There needs to be a "threshold" at every unhappiness level.
 
Is it me or did they add a gold penalty? I seem to have trouble staying in the green when I'm unhappy.

Celevin, I don't think it needs to be every happiness point changing things slightly. Should benefits stack gradually too? But I do think a second tier is needed. Basically, if you get 20 unhappy, it should probably just cripple everything (-50% combat, half science, gold and production penalty). Seriously, I conquered the map and I think the worst I ever got was -12. -20 would stop the most abusive conquerors who don't even bother with puppet cities.
 
Is it me or did they add a gold penalty? I seem to have trouble staying in the green when I'm unhappy.

Celevin, I don't think it needs to be every happiness point changing things slightly. Should benefits stack gradually too? But I do think a second tier is needed. Basically, if you get 20 unhappy, it should probably just cripple everything (-50% combat, half science, gold and production penalty). Seriously, I conquered the map and I think the worst I ever got was -12. -20 would stop the most abusive conquerors who don't even bother with puppet cities.

Part of the reason we see a problem is because thresholds exist. It's called a binding constraint. The best strategy will be to let yourself fall to right above that level, as there's no point in being above that. We don't want the player to feel like getting an additional couple points of happiness won't help them out, as it is now.
 
Celevin, I don't think it needs to be every happiness point changing things slightly. Should benefits stack gradually too? But I do think a second tier is needed. Basically, if you get 20 unhappy, it should probably just cripple everything (-50% combat, half science, gold and production penalty). Seriously, I conquered the map and I think the worst I ever got was -12. -20 would stop the most abusive conquerors who don't even bother with puppet cities.

Exactly. Every point, or every 5-10 extra points of unhappiness should add additional penalty.

What will that accomplish, though? As this thread shows, you can completely ignore unhappiness. Plus, if you follow my strategy, razing 90% of cities instead of keeping them, you won't even get into Unhappiness.

If you up the penalties, it doesn't matter. Even if you shut off all my cities at 5 Unhappiness, it doesn't matter. Even if you make Unhappiness a permanent debilitating state at *1* unhappiness & never let me get Happy again, I can still conquer the world (even at -50% combat strangth).

Happiness simply does not matter unless you let it change your strategy because you believe you need to. If you ignore it, just plain pretend it doesn't exist, you can still conquer the world.
 
Exactly. Every point, or every 5-10 extra points of unhappiness should add additional penalty.

Hence the math functions that I provided earlier, where as you get deeper into the hole, the penalties rapidly become steeper and steeper until you gain back some happiness. (Exponential growth functions are good for this. They're also very tunable because you can just change the "A" value to get a different slope.)

y=a^x

Y = penalty
A = some constant (something between 1.5 and 3.5 generally works)
X = percentage that you are below the happiness requirement (use the absolute value)

Diminishing return functions work on a similar basis where it's a gradual decrease in benefit for each additional stack of a particular bonus that you use. Those look like:

y = (x) / (a^x)

Y = benefit
A = some constant (anything > 1.00, like 1.02 to 1.05)
X = the number of bonus items that you have

Unless X is a very small number, they have very gentle stepping and there really aren't any big binding constraints or thresholds. If your X value will only ever been in the range of say -1 to -20, then you can calculate these penalties ahead of time and store them in a table for later look-up.
 
Part of the reason we see a problem is because thresholds exist. It's called a binding constraint.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having players solve a max f(x,y,z;a) s.t. H>=0 linear optimization problem with a truly binding constraint. We did that on every turn in every Civ up until Civ 4. The mechanic was, coincidentally, called happiness. The system worked, though it forced either hardcore micro or a lot of save and reload.

The hard constraint meant that if you ignored happiness, your empire cratered. You couldn't produce anything at all if you failed the constraint in a city. Civ IV cleverly relaxed the constraint to make it less punitive. What Soren realized is that it doesn't matter how hard the happiness hit is as long as it is meaningful, so that the player is incentivized to resolve the problem. In this case, Soren just made an unhappy city strictly less efficient than a happy city with one less pop. That's enough.

The problem now is that all production other than food and hammers are additive processes ultimately deposited into the same empire-wide bucket. Right now, none of those buckets are penalized for unhappiness. Since resources are fungible (convertible from one to another), you can substitute resources in your large buckets for the small, city-specific buckets that get nerfed by exceeding the happiness constraint. Since the buckets are additive and unpenalized, conditions must exist where it is desirable to ignore the mechanics entirely.

The most elegant solution to the problem is simply to directly reduce the number of cities that contribute to the empire's productivity as the happiness problem becomes more severe. Under that rule, you will invariably run into a wall where continuing to neglect your happiness problem ceases to pay dividends.

An alternative approach that is likely to be better received is to make extreme happiness problems sufficiently punitive that it will never realistically make sense to expand without limit. It seems that some version of this solution is what most players are advocating.

But it is important to realize that a smooth happiness function will only alter how we manage our empires, not whether or not the game is "fixed" by forcing us to consider happiness. The harshness of the penalty will dictate whether the solution "works". Also, you need to realize that under the current mechanics, any smooth solution guarantees that we will want to run some unhappiness at some times. Either the constraint at the margin is sufficiently harsh that it might as well be a hard constraint, or conditions exist where limited unhappiness is desirable. There is no middle ground.
 
The harshness of the penalty will dictate whether the solution "works".

:goodjob:

Decimation, I say. Let those who live by the sword die by the sword. :lol:

Actually I don't understand why someone would pursue the ignore unhappiness strategy other than out of passing curiosity. Going after the easiest victory condition in the most mind numbingly boring manner just can't appeal that much! And you're not even going to get a quick victory... :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:
 
IHAHAHA~~~~

If this mathed do its good job , it will must be a failure to the CIV 5 rather than a success to this way.

Let's take a look at it.

Offense: Twice army , 33% decrease due to unhappiness. 2*(1-33%)=1.35
Defense: Oligarchy , 33% increase due to in homeland. 1*(1+33*)=1.33
——This means the penalty of decrease always more obvious than the bonus of increase.

General 25% and Discipline 15% can be obtained by two side.
Besides, the defense maybe gain a bonus of fort or fortiness by 25%~50%.
So , what's the obvious advantage of this method ?

Maybe , technology. But , do not forget , the higher power your army is , the more it losts from penalty of decrease

=========================================================================
Do remember , the part can just be the pioneer of the whole , not separate itself from the whole.This idea ignores the importance of diplomacy , city-states , the good defense system of city+garrison+terrain , and a pack of cavalry from sideface can also cause lots of trouble to the generals and trading post.

I took the first score place in my last Demon game in level Deity with Egypt. Half of the turns is full of fight , twice against Roman in east , then against Germany in north , besides I succeed to build the 4 great work of the Great Library, the Oracle , the Angkor Wat ,the Himeji Castle .
I don't think this method will provide a more rapid army output than the Germany and Rome before Renaissence Time in Deity level .

Of course , it is a good way of rush , but it is also a way of gamble , and before the beginning of roll , there are also lots of work to prepare besides money . However,it will be a shocking stategy to some freshbirds in net mutiplegame.
 
If you do this, make sure you have a lot of friends because you do not want someone to attack you.

Say someone sends in mounted units to pillage your farms and take out your allied maritime city-states to starve your population, what do you do? You could attack them back, even wipe their people out, except once the war is over you will be stuck with a bunch of 3-pop cities because you still have unhapiness from number of cities. Roads cost maintenance in Civ5 and you just won't have that many relative to your empire since the number of road segments for n number of cities is kn^2, you won't catch the enemy cavalry even in your own territory. You do have more units overall but you also have more land to protect so you will have some local superiority issues, even though perimeter grows slower than area.
 
What will that accomplish, though? As this thread shows, you can completely ignore unhappiness. Plus, if you follow my strategy, razing 90% of cities instead of keeping them, you won't even get into Unhappiness.

If you up the penalties, it doesn't matter. Even if you shut off all my cities at 5 Unhappiness, it doesn't matter. Even if you make Unhappiness a permanent debilitating state at *1* unhappiness & never let me get Happy again, I can still conquer the world (even at -50% combat strangth).

Happiness simply does not matter unless you let it change your strategy because you believe you need to. If you ignore it, just plain pretend it doesn't exist, you can still conquer the world.
After trying to ignore happiness, I agree that razing almost all cities seems to be the better - and possibly more obvious - option. However, it's every bit as absurd as ignoring happiness in my opinion.

If you conquer a country, you don't normally genocide the whole people and then build your own cities there, even though there were some cases in history where something like that was done deliberately or accidentally (the Americas come to mind), it wasn't the usual method, and would be highly unacceptable in a modern world with ethical standards. I would like to see a big diplomacy and happiness penalty for razing cities.
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with having players solve a max f(x,y,z;a) s.t. H>=0 linear optimization problem with a truly binding constraint. We did that on every turn in every Civ up until Civ 4. The mechanic was, coincidentally, called happiness. The system worked, though it forced either hardcore micro or a lot of save and reload.

The hard constraint meant that if you ignored happiness, your empire cratered. You couldn't produce anything at all if you failed the constraint in a city. Civ IV cleverly relaxed the constraint to make it less punitive. What Soren realized is that it doesn't matter how hard the happiness hit is as long as it is meaningful, so that the player is incentivized to resolve the problem. In this case, Soren just made an unhappy city strictly less efficient than a happy city with one less pop. That's enough.

The problem now is that all production other than food and hammers are additive processes ultimately deposited into the same empire-wide bucket. Right now, none of those buckets are penalized for unhappiness. Since resources are fungible (convertible from one to another), you can substitute resources in your large buckets for the small, city-specific buckets that get nerfed by exceeding the happiness constraint. Since the buckets are additive and unpenalized, conditions must exist where it is desirable to ignore the mechanics entirely.

The most elegant solution to the problem is simply to directly reduce the number of cities that contribute to the empire's productivity as the happiness problem becomes more severe. Under that rule, you will invariably run into a wall where continuing to neglect your happiness problem ceases to pay dividends.

An alternative approach that is likely to be better received is to make extreme happiness problems sufficiently punitive that it will never realistically make sense to expand without limit. It seems that some version of this solution is what most players are advocating.

But it is important to realize that a smooth happiness function will only alter how we manage our empires, not whether or not the game is "fixed" by forcing us to consider happiness. The harshness of the penalty will dictate whether the solution "works". Also, you need to realize that under the current mechanics, any smooth solution guarantees that we will want to run some unhappiness at some times. Either the constraint at the margin is sufficiently harsh that it might as well be a hard constraint, or conditions exist where limited unhappiness is desirable. There is no middle ground.
There's no situation or formula to solve with the current binding constraint. It's just "am I above the limit? Ok, I'm good. If I go below next turn, I can adjust on the turn to get above again".

I wouldn't mind limited happiness being desirable as long as too much happiness isn't. Under my idea, a player might decide to take upon more unhappiness if the tile or specialist exceeds 2food-golden age+2production+2gold. Not likely, but it's possible. And the empire doesn't sink at a certain number. This requires a bit of thinking to see if it's best to take on more unhappiness.


People complain about no depth in Civ5, and while I think it's a bunch of hogwash, this is an area where more depth can be added without making the game bloated. I admit I don't like not having to actually wonder if happiness is a problem anymore. The reason happiness takes no work or thinking is the easy to manage thresholds. The reason we're able to completely CHEAT the system is the penalties aren't harsh enough.
 
Happiness doesn't bind the solution to the production maximization problem in the later stages, which is the basic problem here. It's an unconstrained maximization problem where bigger is always better due to the present design. What we need to do is make happiness bind the solution under all cases.

You are correct that there is no meaningful penalty that I can see for minimally exceeding the cap, since the food buckets appear to expand and contract to the same points. I find that Happiness sometimes becomes a problem during the later portion of the buildup phase. You're still pumping coin into city-states, but their luxuries are often redundant. Since you're still setting up alliances, you don't have the cash to throw around to just dial up an AI and buy a luxury to solve the problem.

That can cost you some growth. Otherwise, it's never a pressing concern.

As for your fractional solution - there's no guarantee that the player will feel minimal overages due to rounding if the population is large enough. Kill one city's entire output, and the player will always notice. It still might make sense to capture the adversary's big production city and suffer the production death of your weakest city in the near term, but you'd never be incentivized to let it stay that way.
 
Part of the reason we see a problem is because thresholds exist. It's called a binding constraint. The best strategy will be to let yourself fall to right above that level, as there's no point in being above that. We don't want the player to feel like getting an additional couple points of happiness won't help them out, as it is now.

Well, margin of error is always nice. Plus, extra positive happiness gives Golden Age bonuses.

What will that accomplish, though? As this thread shows, you can completely ignore unhappiness. Plus, if you follow my strategy, razing 90% of cities instead of keeping them, you won't even get into Unhappiness.

If you up the penalties, it doesn't matter. Even if you shut off all my cities at 5 Unhappiness, it doesn't matter. Even if you make Unhappiness a permanent debilitating state at *1* unhappiness & never let me get Happy again, I can still conquer the world (even at -50% combat strangth).

Happiness simply does not matter unless you let it change your strategy because you believe you need to. If you ignore it, just plain pretend it doesn't exist, you can still conquer the world.

Yeah, you can. That's why I suggested increasing the military penalty (ideally get it to the point where they can't win). Perhaps even bring back the strike feature from Civ4. If you have unhappiness greater than 20, you can't even attack.

BTW, razing isn't an issue. In Civ4, you could raze all the cities and there wouldn't be a maintenance penalty. It's not like Civ5 is any more unbalanced in this regard. If you want to leave a wake of destruction without gaining the material benefits, you can. The only constraint is losing units.
 
Give unhappiness a gold penalty as well as a production penalty, and you'll see people trying to get above water again in no time. They won't be able to keep up with the unhappiness.
 
I think adding gold and science penalties along with some extra stepping stones that with either happiness duration or beyond just -10 would be enough to balance this out. In order to recover from the hole you could say that the production penalty doesn't apply when building happiness buildings.
 
If we're increasing the penalty for unhappiness, we should be extremely careful about introducing death spirals. Let's say, for sake of argument, there's a large production and gold penalty for severe unhappiness. If you ever hit that point, you functionally lose the game - there's no way to build Coliseums in a reasonable timeframe (because of -% hammers), and there's no way to rush them (because of gold drain), so you can only hope that an opponent is willing to trade a luxury to get you out. If not, you're spending a huge amount of time at a crippling disadvantage, and might as well Exit to Windows. Any solution that involves production/gold penalties should exempt Coliseums (and its children buildings), so there's at least one guaranteed path out of unhappiness.

Unhappiness should absolutely freeze growth to prevent this from occurring. If you can grow, you can incur further unhappiness from population, pushing you down into worse penalties. Again, nobody wants to incur a death spiral. Perhaps a solution is something like:

1 :( : 75% growth
2 :( : 50% growth
3 :( : 25% growth
4 :( : growth freezes
5 :( : -5% production/gold on non-:) generators
6 :( : -10% production/gold on non-:) generators
...
4+X :( : -(5*X)% production/gold on non-:) generators

This way, you can stop severe unhappiness before it gets oppressive, and if it does for whatever reason, you can dig out of it, without getting locked into growth negating your generators.
 
I'm a big fan of the Dark Age idea where there is an unhappiness pool that builds up for every unit of unhappiness you have. Not only would it make significant amounts of unhappiness much worse than just a little, it would add flavor to the game.
 
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