Most brutal war event in history?

privatehudson · Jul 30, 2014

The Soviet/Russian defence of their response to the Warsaw uprising reminds me, albeit on a larger scale of the British response to why they didn't bash on to Arnhem right after capturing Nijmegen bridge. Ultimately it matters very little how logical or sound the reasoning, most people only remember that those involved didn't try.

That said the Warsaw situation strikes me as far murkier for all the politics and rhetoric surrounding the events. It would also be useful to analyse what passive support the Soviets may have given or not given, since this would give an interesting insight into whether any betrayal or similar occurred. But its not a subject that I know much about, so I would hesitate to offer a conclusion based on only limited reading into the subject.

I also suspect that it could (and probably already has) take up an entire thread on its own

Ajidica · Jul 30, 2014

I found online the section of the book I was referring to, unfortunately it was a bit less detailed than I remember:
http://books.google.com/books?id=T5...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

I completely forgot about the Polish government in exile having absolutely no coordination with regards to any uprising and no pre-existing plan, leading to a complete trainwreck where nobody was on the same wavelength, let alone what the official policy was.
The author says nothing about Stalin or the Soviets promising any support to the uprising beyond the generic radio messages of encouraging people to rise up against their Nazi oppressors. As far as betrayal goes, pretty much the best you got is that Stalin saw no reason to engage in a risky reorientation of Soviet forces to rush to the aid of the AK which had majorly fouled up the operation from the very start by failing to take any of the bridges crossing the Vistula when the AK were staunchly opposed to the Soviets. We have Stalin putting the interests of the Soviet Union above helping his enemies but with Stalin, we can't be very surprised about that.

It must also be said that the Americans and Brits were just as unhelpful as the Soviets, with the Americans telling the AK to accept Poland's inevitable status as part of the Soviet sphere.

privatehudson · Jul 31, 2014

Really surprised our resident Poland experts haven't posted here yet... :hmm:

Personally I think betrayal was the wrong word to use since it carries with it connotations of promises broken. There is the implicit promise that an ally should do all in its power to help another, but that works both ways. Its more interesting to me to see a study of what help each ally could have given (and I agree that such a study would have to include the Anglo-Americans), what help they did give, and why they were unable to do more. A ground offensive would be part of this of course, but I suspect only one part.

Domen · Aug 2, 2014

Ajidica,

I think you are confusing the dates of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Warsaw Uprising. Those uprisings did not take place at the same time.

The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was in 1943 (when Germans started final extermination of the Ghetto), while the Warsaw Uprising was in 1944.

This map shows the Eastern Front in April 1943, when (19 April 1943) the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising started:

This map shows the Eastern Front in Late July 1944, when (1 August 1944) the Warsaw Uprising started:

Source for maps: http://english.pobediteli.ru/flash.html

The main reason why Jews in Warsaw started an uprising, was because in April 1943 the final phase of German liquidation of the Ghetto began. So the uprising started in order to prolong Ghetto's existence. They could not wait any longer, that was the last possible moment they could raise to arms.

The Home Army was not very eager to provide weapons to Jews in Ghetto, because they knew that every rifle delivered to the Ghetto was a lost rifle. And the Home Army also had huge shortages of weapons. But - unlike Ghetto fighters - the Home Army was not fighting just to live several days longer.

They had their political goals.

When the Soviets approached the outskirts of Warsaw in Late July 1944, the Ghetto no longer existed - it was a pile of rubble at that time, because after defeating Jewish insurgents in 1943, Germans demolished all buildings in that district which had been used as Ghetto for Jews in years 1940 - 1943.

Some Jews took part in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, but those were survivors of the Ghetto Uprising and other Jews hidden by Polish families.

Ajidica · Aug 2, 2014

Yah, I got them slightly confused in my head, but I was intending to talk about the '44 uprising. (And that is what the author was talking about.)
Didn't mean to cause any confusion.

Domen · Aug 2, 2014

Ok. When it comes to the 1944 uprising:

Well, there was a big tank battle on the outskirts of Warsaw (1 - 4 August 1944), it started on the same day as the Uprising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Radzymin_(1944)

And many historians agree that Germans won that battle, or at least that they inflicted very heavy losses on the Red Army.

Some historians say that it was that defeat, which caused lack of direct help to Warsaw insurgents by the Red Army:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lack_of_outside_support_in_the_Warsaw_Uprising

(...) In the initial Battle of Radzymin Soviet advance armored units of the 2nd Tank Army suffered a setback which prevented them from taking Warsaw from the march. It was the presence of Soviet tanks in nearby Wołomin that sealed the decision of the Home Army leaders in Warsaw to launch the uprising. As a result of the battle, the Soviet tank army was pushed out of Wołomin to the east of Warsaw and pushed back about 10 km.[8][9][10][11] However, the defeat did not change the fact of the overwhelming Soviet superiority over the Germans in the sector. The Soviets retained their positions to the south-east of Warsaw along the Vistula river, barely 10 km away from the city center, at the outskirts of the Warsaw right bank suburb Praga. The Poles fighting in the Uprising were counting that the Soviet forces would seize Praga in a matter of days and then be in a position to have Red Army units cross to the left bank where the main battle of the Uprising was occurring and come to its aid. However, on that line along the outskirts of Praga, on the most direct route of advance towards Warsaw, the Soviets stopped their advance and the front line did not move for the next 45 days. (...)

In the end Soviet forces only advanced as far as the Vistula River (capturing eastern part of Warsaw, located on that bank of the river).

And there were also failed attempts of landings by units of the Polish People's Army (around these landings also many contradicting theories arosed):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lack_o...rticipation:_Berling_landings_on_Powi.C5.9Ble

==========================================

In short - one of reasons why the Soviets did not help was because they lost the battle of Wołomin.

Question is if that defeat was really serious enough to prevent the Soviets from attacking Warsaw, or maybe it was just an excuse for Stalin.

The Home Army started uprising when Soviet tanks appeared near Warsaw. But Poles did not expect that Soviets were going to be defeated and pushed 10 km back. Apparently Poles believed in invincibility of the Red Army, which was not invincible and was still suffering tactical defeats in various battles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Radzymin_(1944)#Battle

After the Russian reconnaissance units reached Warsaw in late July, on August 1, 1944 the Warsaw Uprising started. Starting from an area south of Mińsk Mazowiecki, Lieutenant-General N. D. Vedeneev's 3rd Tank Corps (part of the Soviet Second Tank Army) thrust northwest through Okuniew and Wołomin to Radzymin, reaching an area only three miles (five kilometers) from the strategic bridge over the Narew River at Zegrze.

In response to Vedeneev's thrust, the Germans started a tactical counter-attack near Radzymin on July 31. The offensive, carried out by 4 understrength Panzer divisions,[1] was to secure the eastern approaches to Warsaw and Vistula crossings, and aimed to destroy the three tank corps of the Second Tank Army in detail. Under the leadership of German Field Marshal Model, the 4th, 19th, Hermann Göring, and 5th SS Panzer Divisions were concentrated from different areas with their arrival in the area of Wołomin occurring between July 31 and August 1, 1944. Although the 3rd Tank Corps gamely defended the initial assaults of the Hermann Göring and 19th Panzer Divisions, the arrival of the 4th Panzer and 5th SS Panzer Divisions spelled doom for the isolated and outnumbered unit.[2]

Already on August 1, the leading elements of the 19th and 5th SS Panzer Divisions, closing from the west and east respectively, met at Okuniew, cutting the 3rd Tank Corps off from the other units of the Second Tank Army. Pressed into the area of Wołomin, the 3rd Tank Corps was pocketed and destroyed on August 3, 1944. Attempts to reach the doomed tank corps by the 8th Guards Tank Corps and the 16th Tank Corps failed, with the 8th Guards Tank Corps taking serious losses in the attempt. Although Model had planned to attack the 8th Guards Tank Corps next, the withdrawal of the 19th and Hermann Göring Panzer Divisions to shore up the German defenses around the Magnuszew bridgehead forced the remaining German forces around Okuniew to go on the defensive.[3][4]

For unknown reasons, on August 2, 1944 all armies that were to assault Warsaw had their orders changed. The 28th, 47th and 65th Armies were ordered to turn northwards and seize the undefended town of Wyszków and the Liwiec river line. The 2nd Tank Army was left in place and had to fight the Germans alone, without support of the infantry. Also, 69th Army was ordered to stop while the 8th Guards Army under Vasily Chuikov was ordered to halt the assault and await a German attack from the direction of Garwolin.

Further combat lasted until August 10, when the Germans finally withdrew. Soviet losses were heavy, but not heavy enough to affect the overall course of their thrust to the vicinity of Warsaw. The 3rd Tank Corps was destroyed, the 8th Guards Tank Corps took heavy losses, and the 16th Tank Corps took significant losses as well. Overall, the Second Tank Army's losses were significant enough that it was withdrawn from the front lines by August 5, 1944.

=======================================

Anyway, no matter who are we going to blame - the Germans, Stalin, or Polish commanders - this is what left of Warsaw by January 1945:

Link to video.

Warsaw - or rather what left of it - was finally captured by forces of the Polish People's Army on 16 - 17 January 1945, after two days of combat:

http://ww2-weapons.com/Pictures/Eastern-Front/Battle-Vistula-1945.htm

That was part of the Vistula-Oder Offensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula–Oder_Offensive

Fights for Warsaw, 16 - 17 January 1945: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walki_o_Warszawę_(1945)

Google Translated: http://translate.google.com/transla...dia.org/wiki/Walki_o_Warszaw%C4%99_%281945%29

Defilade of Polish People's Army in Warsaw on 19 January 1945:

First Soviet units reached the outskirts of Warsaw in late July 1944, but the city was entirely captured not before 17.01.1945 - almost 6 months later. I'm not sure if any other European capital city had to wait such a long time for liberation, counting from the moment when first Allied troops reached it.

Domen · Aug 2, 2014

Some German and Polish photage from the 1944 Warsaw Uprising (some Soviet forces also can be seen - on the east bank of the Vistula):

Link to video.

Most brutal war event in history?

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