Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
My racial realist gut feeling tell that since Poles are naturally obsessive, and Sigmund Freud was obsessesive too, his traits make it plausible that he is of Polish descent.
Main Reasons for the collapse of Communism
- Thread starter daft
- Start date
My racial realist gut feeling tell that since Poles are naturally obsessive, and Sigmund Freud was obsessesive too, his traits make it plausible that he is of Polish descent.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Maybe if Stalin was born in Poland, he'd be obsessive and the Soviet Union could have remained today?
Also, the Nazis would have won.
Also, the Nazis would have won.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Kaiserguard said:
Sorry, I was posting that from my smartphone and when I typed "K..." it apparently found "Kyriakos" automatically.
Or maybe it was a Freudian slip, who knows. Anyway, post edited.
=====================================
Freud was Jewish of Polish-Jewish descent (his parents were from Galicia):
But according to English wikipedia, he was "Austrian".
In Austrian pre-WW1 censuses there was no option to declare "Jewish" nationality / ethnicity / language.
Therefore Jews had to choose from several other options when answering census questions.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Actually, his parents were from Galicia, which was taken from Poland. So there you go.
Yes. That is what happens when you're born in a country/are a citizen of a country. It is so frustrating that you old world people won't let go of your stupid ethnicity lines. It causes more death and misery than anything else in the world.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
You can't wash away kinship. It is an illusion to think the USA constitutes a nation that is able to transcend ethnic lines, given that pretty much every major American city has a African-American neighbourhood and a European-American neighbourhood. There are undoubtedly Blacks that fit in better among Whites than other Blacks, and vice versa, yet plenty of efforts to make people forget ethnicity tends to cause friction than wipe it off the face of the earth..
You know, the mere fact that you talked about "European-American" and "African-American" rather than, you know, Polish-American, Irish-American and so forth tells us that ethnic lines have been transcended. I mean, think of it: Poles could be marrying Russians, Jews and Germans in the United States 
Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
Insofar you have mentioned, yes. Though to be honest, it was a grueling process that took more than a hundred years. The differences between European-Americans and African-Americans are still pretty strong. These too may be effaced one day, thought you can't hope to see it dissappear simply by wishing it will.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
bhsup said:
Palestinians refusing to accept that they are Israeli because they are born in Israeli-controlled territories is so frustrating indeed.
But wait! You actually supported Palestinians in another thread! Inconsistency #1 detected.
It is so frustrating that you new world people won't let go of your stupid ethnicity lines and insist that you are Americans, not English colonists.
Queen and Country! Land back to its rightful owner!
I am pretty sure that cancer causes more death and misery. So does smoking, drinking, heart attacks. And living in general.
In fact, life causes 100% of death.
It's sorta hard to buy into a state that has an iron-clad assumption, the political ascension of one group over another ("Jewish and Democratic") and which practices a whole range of demeaning and discriminatory acts against its Palestinians and Arab populations. And even then, a lot of Palestinians and Arabs do identify as Israeli.
Sure, America has had some racism issues. But those are gradually being overcome. And I think it fair to say that most people in the United States regardless of their race identify as being American with no questions asked.
Kaiserguard said:
Sure, America has had some racism issues. But those are gradually being overcome. And I think it fair to say that most people in the United States regardless of their race identify as being American with no questions asked.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Masada:
Identity is usually multilayered and complex, which is what most people overlook when discussing identity-related issues.
They could be doing the same in Poland as well.
E.g. I know a Polish-German American who was Polish-German first and only later became American.
Kaiserguard:
I am repeating this on this forum once again. Please don't use word "ethnicity" when discussing race.
In the quoted excerpt you talk about racial characteristics, differences in physical appearance, skin colour, etc., not about ethnic groups.
By "transcending ethnic lines" you obviously mean transcending Caucasoid-Negroid-Mongoloid, etc. lines - that is, racial lines, not ethnic lines.
If you mean transcending ethnic lines then this already happened because majority of Americans have more than one ethnic ancestry.
You can distinguish an African-American from an European-American by just looking at them. You can't do this with French-American and Italian-American.
Identity is usually multilayered and complex, which is what most people overlook when discussing identity-related issues.
They could be doing the same in Poland as well.
E.g. I know a Polish-German American who was Polish-German first and only later became American.
Kaiserguard:
I am repeating this on this forum once again. Please don't use word "ethnicity" when discussing race.
In the quoted excerpt you talk about racial characteristics, differences in physical appearance, skin colour, etc., not about ethnic groups.
By "transcending ethnic lines" you obviously mean transcending Caucasoid-Negroid-Mongoloid, etc. lines - that is, racial lines, not ethnic lines.
If you mean transcending ethnic lines then this already happened because majority of Americans have more than one ethnic ancestry.
You can distinguish an African-American from an European-American by just looking at them. You can't do this with French-American and Italian-American.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
If anything, it collapsed because it was not ethnic at all, and tried to destroy all ethno-cultural heritage.
====================================
BTW - I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when KG quoted a guy who said that "wrong species" is to be blamed for the collapse of Communism.
People do not exist for socioeconomic systems, but these systems exist for people. So we should adopt such a system which is good for our species.
Of course Communist ideology included the "social engineering" policy which aimed at creating a new species, suitable for Communism - Homo Sovieticus.
So indeed that ideology was the tail wagging the dog - because it wanted to create peoples for the system, rather than system for the peoples...
And this is why Communism failed.
====================================
BTW - I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when KG quoted a guy who said that "wrong species" is to be blamed for the collapse of Communism.
People do not exist for socioeconomic systems, but these systems exist for people. So we should adopt such a system which is good for our species.
Of course Communist ideology included the "social engineering" policy which aimed at creating a new species, suitable for Communism - Homo Sovieticus.
So indeed that ideology was the tail wagging the dog - because it wanted to create peoples for the system, rather than system for the peoples...
And this is why Communism failed.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Let's also note that Communism worked [slightly] better in some countries than in some other countries.
Maybe there is a country on Earth where it could be able to work well.
Every culture is different, that's why there is no one, universal system which is the best solution for everyone.
Maybe there is a country on Earth where it could be able to work well.
Every culture is different, that's why there is no one, universal system which is the best solution for everyone.
Dunno dude, I'm pretty sure I have more in common with my fellow Americans, such as African Americans, than people from other countries.
I mean, they understand that football is a game played with one's hands, with limited kicking, not entirely with one's feet. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
USA is an exception in that racial lines correlate neatly with ethnic groups founded in America. The European-American originally comes from the USA and correlates with largely with white Americans; some blacks and Asians are to be found among them, though it is largely racially correlative. You pointed out that before that, it was largely among Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans, Anglo-Americans etc. This has MOSTLY dissappeared, in the same African-Americans identify as African-Americans, and not as West-African Tribesmen, for instance. Of course, there are still traditional ethnic celebrations like St. Patrick's day, though in the US, these have largely become European-American celebrations in general.
Actually, some ethnic groups can easily be distinguished by dress and customs, though it is indeed hard to do so between French and Italian ethnics.
I noticed this afterwards and thought this deserved a reply.
This is wrong. The Khmer Rouge did not expel urban dwellers because they viewed small tribes of hunter-gatherers as a model for how Communism might be hastened. To the contrary, the Khmer Rouge hated hunter-gathering and hunter-gatherers. The reason being that French ethnographers had traditionally argued that hunter-gatherers were inveterate individualists, a view the Khmer Rouge took to heart. The Khmer Rouge also hated swidden agriculturalists for much the same reason. By contrast, the Khmer Rouge's actual model for its weirdo brand of agrarian Communism (and I'm not even sure if Communism is the right word for what the Khmer Rouge were aiming for) was firmly grounded a mythologized vision of how Khmer society used to work before the market economy got involved being comprised of villages with minimal degree of social stratification and a high degree of mutual endeavor. Basically, the people the Khmer Rouge loved were peasants, in the remotest parts of the country who had the least exposure to the market economy. It was in this sort of environment that the Khmer Rouge hoped to mould urban dwellers into good Communists.
Domen said:
This is wrong. The Khmer Rouge did not expel urban dwellers because they viewed small tribes of hunter-gatherers as a model for how Communism might be hastened. To the contrary, the Khmer Rouge hated hunter-gathering and hunter-gatherers. The reason being that French ethnographers had traditionally argued that hunter-gatherers were inveterate individualists, a view the Khmer Rouge took to heart. The Khmer Rouge also hated swidden agriculturalists for much the same reason. By contrast, the Khmer Rouge's actual model for its weirdo brand of agrarian Communism (and I'm not even sure if Communism is the right word for what the Khmer Rouge were aiming for) was firmly grounded a mythologized vision of how Khmer society used to work before the market economy got involved being comprised of villages with minimal degree of social stratification and a high degree of mutual endeavor. Basically, the people the Khmer Rouge loved were peasants, in the remotest parts of the country who had the least exposure to the market economy. It was in this sort of environment that the Khmer Rouge hoped to mould urban dwellers into good Communists.
Most settler societies do that with slight variations e.g. the existence of Coloreds as an intermediate racial group in South Africa between Whites and Blacks. (That's a gross simplification because Coloreds might more properly be understood to be a distinct racial group although politically, at least, they've tended to comprise an intermediate group).Kaiserguard said:
This is nonsense. Blackness is rather more complicated than just looks. Plenty of Blacks don't look Black but are Black according to the American understanding of Blackness. 'One drop rule', 'passing' and all that. About the only place that relied on physical appearance to determine race was South Africa (the 'pencil test'). Most places used a range of measures with the determinate factor being a blood quotient test which had zero to do with looks.Domen said:
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Sure, but I was talking about distinguishing them when they are naked.
Racial characteristics among Homo sapiens sapiens developed during thousands of years, between roughly 140,000 and 15,000 years ago, as the result of small human populations splitting from each other and living in total isolation from the rest of humanity for long periods of time (many thousands years), often in very distinct climatic and environmental conditions, which facilitated natural selection of particular traits of physical appearance among those individual human groups.
Distinction for three races - White, Yellow and Black - is oversimplistic and obsolete because Black race is in fact much more diverse than the remaining two ones.
What is called Black race should be further divided into several more races and sub-races. Bushmen and Pygmies for example are such races or sub-races. Ancestors of Bushmen separated from ancestors of the rest of present day's humanity 140,000 years, migrated southward, and for the next 100,000 years they lived in total isolation from all other human groups. Evidence shows that slow and steady gene flow between Bushmen and other human groups started again only 40,000 years - after 100,000 years of isolation, during which typically Bushmen phenotypes as we know them today developed. Similar situation was with Pygmies, ancestors of whom - as modern research proved - separated from the rest of Non-Bushmen humans some 70,000 ybp and remained in isolation also until approximately 40,000 years before present. Only then a steady gene flow between Pygmies and other Non-Bushmen Africans started once again. At the same time (ca. 35 kya / kybp) also some genes from an archaic species of Homo (their last common ancestor with modern humans lived ca. 700 kya / kybp) introgressed into Pygmy genome, but it was a relatively small admixture (2%):
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/08/29/1109300108.abstract
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/ancient-africans-interbred-extinct-species-of-human/
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-09/uoa-ahw090211.php
Spoiler :
Enough to say that if all of female mtDNA genetic diversity in times shortly before our expansion from Africa was 100%, then only 5% out of that entire genetic diversity actually ever paricipated in expansion into other continents, while 95% of it never left Africa (not in prehistoric times at least - only later, in historical times, in particular during intense sea-going slave trade). Moreover, out of those 5% only one part - that group which chose the northern migration route - became Caucasoids and Mongoloids, while the other part - that one which chose the southern migration route - became Dravidians, Negritos, Melanesians and Australoids.
Spoiler :
Just like in Africa, outside of Africa there was also some limited gene flow between modern humans and archaic species of Homo. For example people of Caucasoid and Mongoloid races carry some Neanderthal genes resulting from occasional interbreeding. In total about 2% of DNA of these peoples come from Neanderthals, but it represents only 20% of overall Neanderthal genome, because only this 20% was apparently favoured in selection processes (it means that even if we gathered all surviving Neanderthal genes from all existing humans, we would not be able to "reconstruct" a full Neanderthal from them - only a 1/5 Neanderthal).
Spoiler :
I agree with this American-centric argument. But you should know that Afro-Americans are not "pure Sub-Saharan Africans". Afro-Americans have on average a significant degree of European admixture, as modern research shows. Paternal European admixture is disproportionately higher than maternal, resulting from intercourses between white slave-owning males and their black female slaves during 250 years of slavery in North America. So despite this strong "African Black pride" among many Afro-Americans, most of them are to some extent Caucasoid / White. Also recently there has been an increasing number of interracial marriages.
All in all, Afro-Americans are 10% White and 90% Black (on average), in terms of overall genome. Among some individuals percent of White genes can be much higher of course. While in terms of Y Chromosome (inherited from father by son), 30% of Afro-American males carry European versions of Y-DNA. By contrast in terms of mtDNA (inherited from mother by children), only 5%. See the link below for more details concerning Non-African genetic admixtures in African-Americans:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051415/
And this graph:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051415/figure/fig02/
Similar threads
