The armour thread

I think that chain mail - being more elastic - could provide better protection against some types of crushing blunt weapons.
Elasticity is the last thing you need against blunt weapons. That is because even in full chain mail armours you need a rigid metal helmet to protect your head against blunt weapons.

I think that chain mail could present best protection against some special piercing weapons like poleaxes and such. However it would not be very succesful against sword slashes or blunt weapons, specially the heavy ones, even if the mails dont break bones and organs underneath would be smashed or at the very least left the wearer disabled. OTOH any sword will have a very hard time breaking a plate armour. In any case the best thing is a combination of both: the plates as primary armour against sword and blunt weapons and under it the chain mail to protect the gaps between plates and to prevent any eventual plate piercing. I think chain mail was widely used alone because it was a cheaper simpler solution and above all much more easily built. Plate armour however must be tailor-made and it need large worked metal plates which is more expensive and difficult and cannot be mass produced. In fact when money or technology allowed it, plate armour took always the place of chain armour as primary protection.
 
Elasticity is the last thing you need against blunt weapons.

Why do you think so? What about absorbing energy of the blow so that less of this energy affects your body and internal organs?

Elastic thing (which always had further padding or leather armour below it) can absorb it better than a rigid plate armour.

In a car accident, the more squashed are the fronts of both cars, the bigger is the chance for survival of passengers, IIRC.

even if the mails dont break bones and organs underneath would be smashed

The same or even worse would be the case with just plate armour. You also don't need to break the plate, squashing it is enough.

In fact when money or technology allowed it, plate armour took always the place of chain armour as primary protection.

Yes but chain mail armour also did not fall out of use.

BTW - the technology of producing full plate armour was not developed until the 14th century.

OTOH any sword will have a very hard time against breaking plate armour.

True. Unless we are talking about a sword designed mostly for stabbing, not for cutting. But most swords are for cutting.

In any case the best thing is a combination of both:

Yup.
 
Why do you think so? What about absorbing energy of the blow so that less of this energy affects your body and internal organs?

Elastic thing (which always had further padding or leather armour below it) can absorb it better than a rigid plate armour.

In a car accident, the more squashed are the fronts of both cars, the bigger is the chance for survival of passengers.
In a squashed car crash energy is absorbed by the very same car structure which is large and rigid but deformable enough to absorb it. The problem with chain mail is it will not oppose any resistance so all energy will be absorbed by the flesh and bones under it.
The same or even worse would be the case with just plate armour. You also don't need to break the plate, squashing it is enough.
In fact this case is much more close to the car example you posted above. Of course given a strong enough hit not chain or plate armour could save the wearer. all depends of course on how thick the armour is and how strong the strike is.
True. Unless we are talking about a sword designed mostly for stabbing, not for cutting. But most swords are for cutting.
I have to disagree here. I think that cutting a metal plate is even harder that piercing it.

Yes but chain mail armour also did not fall out of use.

BTW - the technology of producing full plate armour was not developed until the 14th century.
Chain mail armour is a much more versatile solution at the end of the day and i think that represent a better relation "quality-price" than plate armour. But if money, time or handcrafting talent was not a problem it was plate armour the thing you wanted.
 
But when it comes to plate armours:

Domen said:
As for Lorica Segmentata I have read that there were allegedly some cases when it protected against projectiles shot by ballistas.

I've also read about a case when plate armour saved a soldier's life when a cannon ball hit him (he was severely injured but survived).

Actually, the article linked below (in Polish), describes as many as three such examples:

http://www.kresy.pl/kresopedia,hist...bacz/kamizelka-kuloodporna-polska-specjalnosc

First was during the siege of Smolensk in 1609-1611. A certain officer named Jan Wejher was hit by a cannon ball shot by a Russian culverin positioned on the rampart. He was saved by his plate armour - the armour was damaged but not pierced, and Wejher barely but survived. He considered what happened a miracle and donated the armour to Carmelite Monastery in Loretto.

Another example was on 30 August 1633. One of hussars from the unit of voivode of Smolensk Aleksander Gosiewski was hit by a cannon ball. The armour did not break, even though it was dented - the cannon ball skidded down the armour and - unfortunately - mangled its owner's arm.

Third example took place in combats on 26 September 1660 between Liubar and Chudniv:

"(...) Prusinowski, a hussar companion under field hetman [Jerzy Lubomirski], had the frontal plate of his armour crushed by a cannon ball; strange thing, it did not fracture his body (...)"

So the cannon ball bounced off Prusinowski's armour, even though "crushing" it on impact.

This unusual survival of Prusinowski is confirmed by 3 different sources.

One of these sources - colonel Samuel Leszczyński - also adds the following info:

"(...) The hole in Prusinowski's armour was so huge, that you could put a hand in it (...)"

Then Leszczyński concludes, that the cannon which did that had to be "quite large" by caliber.

=================================

And here - from the same article linked above - a mysterious excerpt from the letter of King of Poland Stephen Báthory to hetman Jan Chodkiewicz dated 24.05.1577, which survived until our times in Czartoryski Library in Cracow. King Báthory wrote in that letter:

"We were told, that one of your men had made a caftan of silk, which is safe even from arquebus firing. We order you to send us this caftan as soon as possible, as well as the craftsman who made it."

It seems to be a 16th century prototype of a bulletproof vest. But this letter is the only trace, no any further info what happened.
 
Body armour stopping cannon bullet is pretty amazing. Sounds like a case for MythBusters!
 
I was thinking about sending this to MythBusters. But it doesn't seem that things like this happened often - they were very rare.

So after a lot of tests, MythBusters would most likely still get a result of "Busted" or "Plausible" at best.

But it is very important to test this with proper armours typical for that perod (or their good replicas) and proper cannons from that period.

I've read that surviving a musket shot from distance of 30 footsteps was a standard procedure of testing breastplates for Napoleon's Cuirassiers.

But musket is musket and cannon is cannon... No comparison.

The thickest of hussar breastplates in Museum of the Polish Army in Warsaw is 9mm thick (inventory number 882x).

Here is a photo of another breastplate from this museum, which is 7mm thick in the front:



They can also use armour of cuirassiers for testing (BTW often hussars used breastplates typical for cuirassiers) - they could also be 7 - 10mm thick:

Here is example of a very thick (I'm not sure but looks like 10mm rather than 7mm) cuirassier armour from the 17th century:



I've read that such a cuirassier breastplate, 7 - 8 (up to 10) mm thick, could stop a bullet of a Spanish musket fired from adhibition (zero meters).

And Spanish and Dutch muskets were the best quality muskets at that time.
 
Bump. Jeez, it's been a while. Thread's getting covered in cobwebs. I've really let go. :blush:

I don't really want to jump ship from CFC until I've covered all the types of armor I want here. I was thinking of doing body armor from after WWII to the present next. I'd have liked to do this all in vaguely chronological order, but I know more about modern armor than, say, mail, or at least, I know enough about mail to know that I know very little about it and mail experts (they exist) would crucify me for misinformation until I can learn a bit more. Mail seems really simple but is actually bewilderingly complex.

Classes are speeding up as the year comes to a close, so I've more work to do. Hopefully I'll have something by the end of this week, maybe next.
 
Here is example of a very thick (I'm not sure but looks like 10mm rather than 7mm) cuirassier armour from the 17th century:



I've read that such a cuirassier breastplate, 7 - 8 (up to 10) mm thick, could stop a bullet of a Spanish musket fired from adhibition (zero meters).

And Spanish and Dutch muskets were the best quality muskets at that time.

I did not read the rest of this thread, but DANG! How much would that weigh?

Assuming......

....1m average dimension around the chest, waist, and hips....
....0.75m from the shoulders to the middle part of the leg.....
....8mm armor thickness.....
....7650 kg/m3 density of iron....

I get 45.9kg, so 40 to 50kg given the lack of precision in the above assumptions. I never imagined armor would be that thick.
 
I did not read the rest of this thread, but DANG! How much would that weigh?

Assuming......

....1m average dimension around the chest, waist, and hips....
....0.75m from the shoulders to the middle part of the leg.....
....8mm armor thickness.....
....7650 kg/m3 density of iron....

I get 45.9kg, so 40 to 50kg given the lack of precision in the above assumptions. I never imagined armor would be that thick.

That's too heavy to wear. In reality, the armor was thickest in the breastplate and helmet crown, but a lot thinner in the limbs. See this study of three-quarter harness weights:



I really like three-quarter harnesses, and I think I'll cover them after modern armor.
 
Interesting that the average weight seems to have dropped off as soon as the Thirty Years' War started.

It could be that since the war made every combatant pretty cash-strapped, they couldn't afford more complete harnesses. Alternatively, it could mean that we just happen to have more examples left over from that period, and that a lot of earlier, lighter harnesses haven't survived due to damage or recycling.
 
The second part is probably to the point - I would have thought that a lot of the people wearing full armour (ie, people who were well-off to begin with) would have been enriched by the incredible amount of pillaging and looting that went on.
 
The reason why it performs terribly is the modern chain mail - which is usually just poor quality imitation that lacks the proper thickness (not enough layers of chains) and density (not enough chains in each layer). Plate armour also performs terribly in some tests, while in other tests no arrow can pierce it.

The reality is that a good quality chain mail provided good protection even against arrows.

Accounts say about crusaders who continued to fight despite looking like hedgehogs due to all the Muslim arrows sticking from their chain mails.

Credit often goes to the English Longbowmen for winning the day at the Battle of Crecy. I just found the Wikipedia article so am reading up on what they say.

I see it as a matter of experience with combined arms from decades of fighting the Scottish, and choosing a defensive position well, while the other side was tired and wet, and therefore unable to break the English formation. I am not sure how many French knights actually fell to arrows.

@Phrossack - Thanks for the information. I knew there was something wrong with one of my assumptions, and therefore the weight was too high.
 
Harv said:
I see it as a matter of experience with combined arms from decades of fighting the Scottish, and choosing a defensive position well, while the other side was tired and wet, and therefore unable to break the English formation. I am not sure how many French knights actually fell to arrows.

Exactly!

I would also give credit for winning Crecy to a well-prepared defensive position, behind which archers and infantry were deployed.

The notion that a concentration of arrows alone can stop a cavalry charge is a myth. Archers really need protection and support to do this.

The same refers to Early Modern Era musketeers, who were vulnerable to cavalry unless supported by pikemen and a favourable defensive position.

David Eltis, "The Military Revolution in Sixteenth-Century Europe" on page 46 quotes Sir John Smythe, "An answer to contrarie opynions militarie", British Library, Harleian MS 135, f 11 - who wrote, that 1000 cavalry can easily defeat 3000 or 4000 missile infantry unless they are protected by pikes or favourable terrain.

On the same page (46) Eltis quotes Matthew Sutcliffe, "The Practice Proceedings, and Lawes of Armies", STC 23468 (1593), page 109 - who in 1593 wrote that a cavalry charge against melee infantry with swords and shields is devastating for infantry, unless they are protected by pikes, ditches, hedgerows or forests.

On next page - 47 - Eltis quotes Robbert Barret, "The Theorike and Practike of Moderne Wares", STC 1500 (1598), page 69 - who in 1598 wrote that missile infantry deployed in open field, unsupported by pikes and without protection provided by hedgerows, ditches, trenches or ramparts, are not able to hold on against cavalry for a long time, and especially are not able to hold on against skilled lancers cavalry.

Raimondo Montecuccoli in "Sulle battaglie" - basing on experiences from the Thirty Years' War (1618 - 1648) - on pages 106 and 150 wrote that cavalry can very quickly destroy musketeers deployed in dense formation (so density of infantry formation is not an obstacle for cavalry in destroying this infantry), unless they are protected by pikes. He also wrote, that pike is "the only defence" of musketeers.

Also Marcin Bielski (born 1495 - died 1575) - soldier, historian and writer - wrote about value and impact (effects) of cavalry and their charges:

"Quality is more important than quantity, and terrain is more important than quality."

Regarding infantry, Marcin Bielski wrote the following:

"If you have infantry against enemy cavalry, deploy your men in rough terrain, deploy your men in wetlands, in thickets, in terrain surrounded by depressions. (...) infantry needs ditches, fences, rivers, hills."

J. J. Kampenhausen - veteran of Swedish and Polish-Saxon armies during the Great Northern War - in 1737 published a book "Praise and apologia of lances and pikes cum refutatione of some allegations about them", in which he praised the effectiveness of pikemen and of heavy cavalry lancers.

Kampenhausen describes how during the battle of Riga (17.06.1701) Swedish Uppland infantry regiment which had no companies of pikemen at all - just companies of musketeers with bayonets, but without pike support - was defeated by a cavalry charge of Saxon cuirassiers. Only two other Swedish infantry regiments - Dalecarlia regiment and Wermanland regiment - were eventually able to: "halt the great impetus of Saxon cuirassiers with use of their pikes."

Then Kampenhausen writes that in the battle of Fraudstadt (13.02.1706) Swedes defeated a combined Saxon-Russian army, which had three times more musketeers and three times more firepower than Swedish forces, only thanks to pikemen of Nerk Wermeland infantry regiment under Lt. Col. Kronman. Kronman's pikemen carried out a brave pike charge and despite being outnumbered, defeated several left wing regiments of enemy musketeers in close combat.

Kampenhausen wrote: "even 100 pikes can inflict more and quicker damage than 200 bayonets."

In another part of his work, Kampenhausen mentions Polish-Lithuanian Hussars (as well as heavy cavalry armed with lances in general).

He wrote that it very rarely happens, that heavy cavalry armed with lances sustain more damage than they inflict (i.e. he claimed that such heavy cavalry lancers almost always inflict higher casualties upon the enemy than they suffer from that enemy - even in case if they are defeated).

When replying to accusation that heavy cavalry is an expensive military formation, Kampenhausen writes:

"I must remind you of that story about a certain burgher from Lviv, who preferred to die several days before Christmas, rather than buying an expensive medicine in a local pharmacy to cure himself, because he was afraid that visits of carol singers and relatives would cost him a lot of money."

And when replying to allegation that lances are an expensive weapon:

"It is a beautiful quasi vero accusation that lances are expensive. After all Poles have a proverb, that only dogs eat cheap meat. I consider such an advisor who suggests to use cheap, poor quality things and in insufficient numbers, just in order to reduce costs, as the greatest ignoramus."

When replying to accusation that heavy lancers are not only expensive, but also demanding, he writes:

"It is true, that only brave and strong men can be lancers. It is true, that only brave horses can be used by them, etc. But is there really a shortage of brave men and of brave horses in the Kingdom of Poland? Neighbouring states are recruiting stalwart Poles into their regiments, so they are at home. Only mints and treasury should be opened et vires et viros regina pecunia donat. (...) Entire world is praising the quality of Polish horses, so why there should be not enough of good horses for the Polish army?"

Kampenhausen was an ethnic German who lived in Swedish-controlled Livonia.

He served in the Swedish army in period 1695 -1708 and then in the Polish-Saxon army in period 1710 - 1734.

He fought in two major wars - Great Northern War (1700 - 1708 and 1710 - 1721) and War of the Polish Succession (1733 - 1734).
 
I've been very delinquent lately.

Anyway, an update:

Part Three A: American Body armor, 1945 to the Present

Body armor designs continued to advance after the Second World War. In the late 1940s the US began work on new designs made of laminated nylon duck, whatever the hell that is, with Doron plates protecting the torso. At least two models saw action in the Korean War, the T-52-2 and the T-52-3.


Ethiopian soldiers with vests in Korea. I didn't know there were Ethiopian soldiers in Korea. Now I know.

The vests weighed just 8 lbs, yet were quite effective:

Reports received by the Office of the Surgeon General of the Army on the combat testing of the new Army nylon vest show that the armor has been deflecting approximately 65 per cent of all types of missiles, 75 per cent of all fragments, and 25 per cent of all small-arms fire. The reports also state that the armor has reduced torso wounds by 60 to 70 per cent, while those inflicted in spite of the armor’s protection were reduced in severity by 25 to 35 per cent.

One soldier reportedly smothered a grenade with his body and was kicked into the air by the blast but suffered only bruises. Another told of how the vests saved him from mortar shell fragments and rescued a comrade from eight hits from a "burp gun" (PPSh-41) submachine gun; the man was merely bruised.



Of course, the vests were useless against rifle fire, but did well against the shrapnel and pistol-caliber bullets they were intended to defeat.

I'm feeling lazy, so maybe I'll work on the rest later tonight/tomorrow.
 
Did actually heavy armor play a huge role in the 30 years war? Cause Sweden famously was one of the main winners of that conflict, emerging as a power, and i suppose they did not use a lot of armor of the heavy kind due to the generally poor conditions of their realm up to that time.
 
Did actually heavy armor play a huge role in the 30 years war? Cause Sweden famously was one of the main winners of that conflict, emerging as a power, and i suppose they did not use a lot of armor of the heavy kind due to the generally poor conditions of their realm up to that time.

It certainly did play a role. Pikemen were frequently clad in half-armor consisting of a breastplate, backplate, helmet, and tassets/faulds/I never learned the correct word. The Swedes don't seem to have used that much armor, actually, and their cuirassiers used little more than cuirasses much of the time, but then I don't know too much about the period and could be wrong. The heaviest cavalry were decked out in three-quarters plate armor that made them virtually immune in the covered areas to edged weapons and pistols, or in other words most weapons you'd expect other cavalry to carry (but not to muskets). You can see some of those suits earlier in the thread, like the one Domen posted with the wicked smiley-face. They're some of my favorite armor, and I'll make a post or two dedicated to them.
 
J. J. Kampenhausen - veteran of Swedish and Polish-Saxon armies during the Great Northern War - in 1737 published a book "Praise and apologia of lances and pikes cum refutatione of some allegations about them", in which he praised the effectiveness of pikemen and of heavy cavalry lancers.

And when replying to allegation that lances are an expensive weapon:

"It is a beautiful quasi vero accusation that lances are expensive. After all Poles have a proverb, that only dogs eat cheap meat. I consider such an advisor who suggests to use cheap, poor quality things and in insufficient numbers, just in order to reduce costs, as the greatest ignoramus."

When replying to accusation that heavy lancers are not only expensive, but also demanding, he writes:

"It is true, that only brave and strong men can be lancers. It is true, that only brave horses can be used by them, etc. But is there really a shortage of brave men and of brave horses in the Kingdom of Poland? Neighbouring states are recruiting stalwart Poles into their regiments, so they are at home. Only mints and treasury should be opened et vires et viros regina pecunia donat. (...) Entire world is praising the quality of Polish horses, so why there should be not enough of good horses for the Polish army?"

Kampenhausen was an ethnic German who lived in Swedish-controlled Livonia.

He served in the Swedish army in period 1695 -1708 and then in the Polish-Saxon army in period 1710 - 1734.

He fought in two major wars - Great Northern War (1700 - 1708 and 1710 - 1721) and War of the Polish Succession (1733 - 1734).

I'm intrigued by the switching between (presumably) Polish and schoolboy Latin in that text.
 
I'm intrigued by the switching between (presumably) Polish and schoolboy Latin in that text.

Yes, Kampenhausen's book was published in Polish language, in the city of Kalisz:

The original title was: "Chwała y apologia kopiy y pik cum refutatione niektorych Zárzutow, przećiwko nim", Anno 1737:

http://www.estreicher.uj.edu.pl/mdu/baza/1723.html

As for your question - Latin, French and Italian (but especially Latin) macaronics were very common in Poland during the Baroque period.

Even much later during the Romanticism some Latin macaronics were still quite commonly used.

For example this excerpt from the rhymed, humorous ballad, "Pani Twardowska" (1822) by Adam Mickiewicz:

Twardowski ku drzwiom się kwapił
Na takie dictum acerbum,
Diabeł za kontusz ułapił:
A gdzie jest nobile verbum?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Twardowski#Pan_Twardowski_in_literature.2C_music_and_film
 
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