[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

Changing Shuar to Jivaro
Changing Tehuelche to Mapuche

Basically I see no historical inaccuracy that would make it "necessary" to change anything here. :dunno:
Also, both Nations already have enough Citynames and Great Warriors.

Yes, we could do so of course. :)
And true, in both cases we would have a bigger ethnical group. :thumbsup:

However, this is only very low priority to me, to be honest.

@colonialfan:
I do not know how important this is to you, but I would suggest we first focus on creation of our first 4, before we start reworking these 2.
Would that be ok ?
 
What about this leaderhead for Inuit ?
I like it, of course... Could I buy his coat? :mischief:

Changing Shuar to Jivaro
Changing Tehuelche to Mapuche
Well historically, Colonialfan must be right... I had never heard about Shuar and Tehuelche. And yet, I've heard about Jivaro and Mapuche.
But I agree with Ray, this would slow us down at first...

Have you ever done Xml edditing, ColonialFan, by the way?
 
I like it, of course... Could I buy his coat? :mischief:

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By the way:

I had been talking to the TAC-team.
They like my feature "Geographically Correct Placement" and might integrate it in TAC.
If they do so, they might eventually also create Inuit already in TAC.

I think that there will be some cooperation between TAC and Religion and Revolution on that topic.

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I will present a Leaderhead for Hurons in the next days. :)
(I have 2, maybe 3, candidates for that one.)

So basically we would have all Leaderheads for our first 4 Nations. :thumbsup:
(Inuit, Hurons, Guarani, Zapotec)

The next step will be to find / create UnitArtStyles and CitySets.
(Buttons and Teamcolors I already have.)

If we have that too, they would be ready for integration if we have all texts and data.

I would really like to integrate our 4 new Native Nations in Release 1.
 
After our first 4:

Without going into details or even really working on those, we could think about possible candidates.
(As I said, I think we should still focus on the first 4.)

I would like to keep the regions balanced. :)
We should add in next phase of our "Further Natives Nation"-Programm:

max. 1 in North
max. 2 in Central
max. 2 in South

My favourite Variant:
1 North / 1 Central / 1 South

@colonialfan:
So what would be your suggestions / favourites ? :)
 
Hi Ray,

Thanks for your feedback, its always good to have another pair of eyes go over your ideas to see what sounds good, bad, superfluous, ridiculous etc.

Before I start, let me say, I should have sent an attachment of the ethnographical cultural map I was working from and to which some of my comments were based. If I'd done that some of my comments may of made more sense. Sorry.:blush:

Geographical Regions

I absolutely agree that we should have just three regions, North America, Central America/Caribbean & South America. When I mentioned other areas like Plateau, Northeast woodlands, Plains, Amazonian etc, I was merely referencing cultural areas. So for example when I suggested combining Artic and Subartic for the Inuit, I was advocating that we simply combine those cultural areas so the Inuit could inhabit both, not create a new geographical region or rename what we already have. Sorry again for the confusion.

Changing Shuar and Teheulche

If they already exist as they are, and do not need any changes, I can happily live with their current names. I am not sure too many people are going to scruntinize the name of a tribe, as long as that tribe exists/existed.

Leaderhead for Inuit

I like it.:)

Number of native civs

I did not even think about how this might affect the algorithms. Gameplay absolutely has to be the first priority.

Adding Further native civs

I'm all for it, but like you said we should probably concentrate initially on the first 4 we have chosen. As to my prefered varient for distribution for any future tribes, I'd also have to go with 1 North/ 1 Central / 1 South.

In terms of favorite tribes, are we basing our choices on tribes most players would of heard of/be somewhat familiar with? If so we might struggle with Central American and South America tribes, as they are well less known as their North American counterparts. But my favorite choices would be:

North America
Algonquian. They are on the east coast and they are more pertinent to the time period of the game, than western tribes.

Central America/Caribbean
I guess it would depend on the map size. For larger maps I'd go with the Caribs, to make the Caribbean area more fun. On a smaller map maybe a tribe south of the Aztec/Maya/Zapoltec region, something like the Guaymi or Miskito.

South America
This is a tough one. We have the Inca along the Andes, the Tehuelche and Guarani are in the southern part of the continent and the Tupi and Shuar are in the Amazon area. Maybe a tribe that is centrally located, something in the Bolivian region perhaps? I'd have to look into it a bit more.
 
I absolutely agree that we should have just three regions, North America, Central America/Caribbean & South America.

Actually with the implementation I did, we could already have 5 regions without changing the code.
(Far North, North, Central, South, Far South)

But for now, I would like to stay with 3 regions to keep it simple.
(North, Central, South)

If they already exist as they are, and do not need any changes, I can happily live with their current names. I am not sure too many people are going to scruntinize the name of a tribe, as long as that tribe exists/existed.

So ok, let us leave them as they are for now. :)
(We could reconsider at another point of time, of course.)

Leaderhead for Inuit

I like it.:)

Great. :)

Number of native civs

I did not even think about how this might affect the algorithms. Gameplay absolutely has to be the first priority.

It is not your duty to think about the algorithms. :)
It just wanted to explain a little, why we should keep the regions in balance.

Adding Further native civs

I'm all for it, but like you said we should probably concentrate initially on the first 4 we have chosen. As to my prefered varient for distribution for any future tribes, I'd also have to go with 1 North/ 1 Central / 1 South.

Great. :)

In terms of favorite tribes, are we basing our choices on tribes most players would of heard of/be somewhat familiar with?

We simply choose, what we feel fits best. :)
Familiarity is also an aspect of course ...

North America
Algonquian.

Central America/Caribbean
Caribs

South America
I'd have to look into it a bit more.

Alonquian and Caribs are fine for me. :thumbsup:
(I think I might even already have leaderheads for them, too.)

About the South:

In AoDII and other Mods there already exists Toltecs.
They are a little too mythical for my taste.

But eventually we could reuse them for another Civ.
So if we find another Civ that is similar to Toltecs, then reusing (leaderhead and UnitArtStyles) could be simple and save us a lot of work.
 
Are the leaderheads here (from AODII) ok for Guarani and Zapotec ?

Guarani leaderhead looks good to me, maybe a bit buff but otherwise fine.:)

As for the Zapotec leaderhead I could not find any period illustrations to compare it with. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do this, but the one thing I would change on the Zapotec leaderhead is removing the beard. Men in Native American cultures are not known for an abundance of facial hair.
 
I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do this, but the one thing I would change on the Zapotec leaderhead is removing the beard. Men in Native American cultures are not known for an abundance of facial hair.

I myself cannot do modifications on leaderheads.
But I will ask one of the modders I know that are able to do this if they could remove the beard for us. :)
 
I myself cannot do modifications on leaderheads.
But I will ask one of the modders I know that are able to do this if they could remove the beard for us. :)

Sounds good.:) If they cannot, I was wondering if we could use the leaderhead of Ce Acatl Topiltzan, the Toltec leader from the 1492 mod, as a possiblility? We have no plans to use the Toltecs as a civ, and at the risk of sounding culturally ignorant and insensitive, (which is not my intention) there are not too many physical distinguishments between the appearance of the Maya, Aztec, and Zapotec, for people to scrutinize over. No more than there would be between, say, English, French and German peoples of that time.
 
I was wondering if we could use the leaderhead of Ce Acatl Topiltzan, the Toltec leader from the 1492 mod, as a possiblility?

It is the same as in AODII for Toltec.
Maybe that is the better solution anyways. :)

So ok, let us take this leaderhead for Zapotec. :thumbsup:
(I think it really fits a lot better.)
 

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Ok guys, :)

here 2 suggestions for leaderheads.
(I know they are not very perfect, but really good leaderheads are pretty rare. :) )

I would suggest this one here or this one here for Hurons and this one here for Alonquin later on.

This leaderhead I had presented before could be use for some other North American Civ (Shoshone or Navajo maybe) sometime in the future.
 

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This leaderhead I would like to use for another Central American Native Civ.

This leaderhead could be used eventually for the Caribs ?
(Otherwise also for some South American Native Civ.)

Also, if we get the beard removed from this one, we could use it for South American Native Civ.
 

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Ok, here 2 more leaderheads I like, that could be used for South America or Central America.
 

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Ok guys,

that is pretty much it. :)

As I said, I had collected and checked more than 30 leaderheads ...
Most of them I had thrown away directly because they were simply very low quality.

The ones I have presented in this thread (12 in total), are the only ones I know of, that I feel we might use.

Index:

1. Inuit <-- I think, this is accepted
2. Guarani <-- I think, this is accepted
3. Zapotec <-- I think, this is accepted
4. My Favorit for Hurons (although quality relatively low ...)
5. Alternative for Hurons (higher quality but less atmospheric)

6. A South American Native Civ (beard should be removed)
7. Navajo or Shoshone
8. Eventually Alonquin (although quality relatively low ...)
9. Eventually a Central American Civ
10. Caribs ?
11. Eventually a Central American Civ
12. Eventually a South American Civ

If you do not have other suggestions, we either try to use them, or we start asking around for creation of totally new ones.
(I think that other modders might be willing to create on or maybe two new leaderheads,
but not the amount of leaderheads we are going to need in total ...)

I would rather try to use the leaderheads we find ourselves and maybe ask for small modifications.
We will need a lot of favours with graphics anyways from other modders ...
 
Hi Ray,

Thanks for doing a great job with looking into some leaderheads.:goodjob: I've also been doing a litle digging around and found a few, but first lets discuss yours.

Leaderheads

1-4. :D I think they are a good representation of the different civs we want to use.
5. Not sure about this one. Looks like a Roman with facepaint to me.
6. Already talked about this one.
7. Good find. This one is generic enough to represent several western tribes in NA.
8. Struggling with the bearskin. Would not be my first choice for Algonquian.
9. I think this one look a little cartoon like.
10. Great! Its very different, not sure if the Caribs used body paint, but I like it.
11-12 - Solid representations of SA native civs.

Nice work Ray.

I found three additional leaderheads.



I thought this might be a good represntation of the Algonquians. Slightly similar to the Iroquois but different enough.



Maybe a Central American Civ?



No the best quality, but a potential North American western Civ?

I think you are right about trying to use pre-existing leaderheads, and ask modders for small alterations if need be. If we are lucky some nice modder out there might be willing to accomodate us a bit more...

Comments/feedback?
 
Hi Ray,

Thanks for doing a great job with looking into some leaderheads.:goodjob: I've also been doing a litle digging around and found a few, but first lets discuss yours.

Leaderheads

1-4. :D I think they are a good representation of the different civs we want to use.
5. Not sure about this one. Looks like a Roman with facepaint to me.
6. Already talked about this one.
7. Good find. This one is generic enough to represent several western tribes in NA.
8. Struggling with the bearskin. Would not be my first choice for Algonquian.
9. I think this one look a little cartoon like.
10. Great! Its very different, not sure if the Caribs used body paint, but I like it.
11-12 - Solid representations of SA native civs.
Very good job indeed Ray! :goodjob:
1-3: I like them !
4-5: Leaderhead n°4 is better than n°5... But the perfect Huron leaderhead would be 4 and 5 merged together... n°4 has the correct hair cut, but seems a little "big" to me. If we could keep n°5 head... without the painting... For now let's use n°4
6: Without his beard would be great
7: :goodjob:
8: Why not. It's better than nothing... But quality is very low indeed.
9: Cartoon like indeed. Is it bad?
10-12: Ok!
 
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