The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #9 - Rome

@Whoever picks the saved games for this thread:

That'd be DingleBirdy unless something unexpected happens like with this one and you are free, even encouraged to provide maps (and possibly with additional set of rules to be followed) to him which would make a good challenge. The more detailed information about that can be found in the OPs of the previous DCLs - I left that bit out from this one on purpose; I'm just acting as a temporary co-host.
 
Well, I finally worked up the courage to replay this gawdawful map. Before I get into the painful details of my game, I'd like to thank those who gave me advice after my earlier rage-quit submission. I followed it as well as game situations merited.

And to whomever came up with this map….well, let's just say you should not expect any Xmas presents from me this year.

t312 Lost SV 1 turn before victory (read at your own risk).

Spoiler :

(Note; This is going to be a long read, as this game really deserves to be described in detail so you all can laugh at my anguish and/or sympathize. I tried to mimic my early game from my previous attempt with the exception of city location. Previously, I had a very nice religious start. This time, not so much).

I moved settler 2 spots to the forest so I'd have access to fishies and both coasts. I buy wheat and sheep tiles as soon as possible to get some growth and production.

Mighty Roman Warrior (MRW from now on) heads North, steps on huts giving food, 60 GPT, meets Lhasa for 8 faith, then gets 20 culture around t15. No more huts, 1 CS worker steal, and MRW's career was over until being brought back once I could finally afford to turn him into a road-building legionnaire.

Scout goes West, finds huts containing AH, weapons upgrade, food (perfectly timed to make Rome pop 4), 90 gold. Scout/archer then goes on barb patrol, but CS don't reward the efforts.

BO was Scout > Begin Worker (advantage of having played this map before and knowing worker steals would be scarce) > Shrine > Worker > Settler > Granary > Library > Oracle

SP's were Tradition opener > Left side of Liberty > Finish Tradition > 3 tenets of Rationalism > full pyramid of Freedom. This was an awful cultural game as I never got any CS cultural allies, was slow to build cultural buildings, and all GWAM's were needed immediately.

2nd city, Antium, was founded on the riverside hill against the mountain just North of Rome. This was to be my science city. Only negative is that it was my only city not on the coast, so it grew a bit slower, but the Observatory helped a lot early.

3rd city, Cumae, went West and ended up outproducing Rome. This became production city, building many early workboats and about half of my troops/navy.

4th city, Neapolis, was settled t90, right in my good buddy Gandhi's face. I had to wait about 5 turns for Antium to finish NC before settling and buying up the copper and 2 more river tiles to the West. Gandhi never said a word….maybe he didn't notice or maybe he'll hold a grudge and make me pay for it much, much later (that's called foreshadowing).

So early game is pretty boring and peaceful. I meet all civs pretty early….more correct would be to say they all met me. I got a trireme out a bit later than planned, as everything on this map goes a bit slow, and I also prioritized getting internal cargo ships up early.

Everyone seemed to want me to DoW Mongols with them, and I did so a couple of time to earn brownie points and got a few GPT in peace deals without ever firing a shot. Genghis would soon be 1st out of the game as I don't think Sully ever let him have peace.

I got 3rd pantheon, took Aurora, although I was tempted to go God of the Sea with all of Rome's fishing boats. Problem was, Gandhi went Piety, founded early pantheon (faith from quarries) so I knew I'd never be able to use those boats. I got 4th religion t65-ish and was surprised to see Mosques still available. Tithe/Mosques, then +2 culture for cities with 5 followers (and I still had a lousy culture game) and Religious Texts. 500 faith GP spread to my 3 expos and Lhasa (requested) and the religion game was pretty much over as neither Gandhi or I bothered the other's religions the rest of the game.

I had a couple of Legions and Ballistas reasonably early, and considered building a few more to take out one of Gandhi's cities or even to ambush Sully, who was ALWAYS busy fighting Huns, Brazilians, or Chinese. I was just always too busy with something else to take the 10-or-so turns it would have taken to produce critical mass.

Same thing went for my ideas of frigate-rush on Sully. I had stolen Compass from Kamehameha (that's so hard to type I'm going to call him Kam from now on), so I had to choose between going for Navigation early and trying for some mid-game war, or going for Architecture, PT, and going for a Science win. Because I only had 6 iron in my empire, and 2 of those were being used on glorified road-pavers, I went the science route.

About that lack of resources……ahem……I had very little but whales to trade. My 4 horsies were used for constant bribes, so I never even rode one. The lack of luxuries made happiness a big issue, and absolutely nobody ever had a luxury to trade for whales….just a mundane 7 GPT (which I desperately needed as I was broke until Industrial period.

Anyways, I had 4 decent cities, all producing and starting to grow, and the first World Council comes up. I get to propose a resolution. I've been saving GA's and GW's just for this, as I love going World's Fair early and leapfrogging back into relevance. This game, I seriously doubted I had the production to take home more than a silver medal, so instead I propose we boycott Mongolia to gain favor from all of my newer acquaintances. This works, a bit, and we never even got to vote on that resolution as Sully took his capital down shortly thereafter. Sadly, that was the last time the WC would care about me voting anything other than "present". I just couldn't get many CS requests done, and this really is where the game went wrong. I've already decided to go for a science victory, so of course Gandhi proposes, and passes, Arts Funding. This would prove crucial.

I stole biology from Maria, and settled city #5, Ravenna, East of Rome to get that oil well (OK, I remembered it was there from my previous play and settled it a bit early). Anyways, at this point, happiness was fluctuating from positive to negative just about every turn. I had a production ship sent from Neapolis to speed-build a coliseum, library, and Uni there so as to not delay Oxford. I didn't have the coin to lease, much less buy any of those buildings. Any spare money I did have was going into every research agreement I could get as I was entering Industrial Era 5th or 6th in science. Anyways, this worked, as I was able to Oxford into Radio just 2 turns after finishing Electricity.

Maria is running away with just about everything but culture at this point, as Kam has her beat there. Everyone seems to like her. She gets 1st ideology and goes Order. I would have taken Order too if I was second there, but Hiawatha comes out of nowhere and follows her into Order. Kam gets 3rd and goes Freedom. I get 4th ideology and go Freedom too, but missing being 1st by 2 turns costs me another policy. Gandhi goes next into Order….probably just to spite me. This works out well, as Kam is a cultural beast and keeps my unhappiness from getting out of control.

Sully has ticked off the world by taking the capitals of China, Brazil, and Mongolia. So he goes Order also, trying to earn some favor. This doesn't work, as Maria and Kam both ask me to DoW him. I ask for 10 turns, and crank out a few battleships. The timing for this is excellent, as Maria has now proposed World's Fair, and I love it when everyone is fighting during this. I'm all set to suicide this. Well, with every hammer I could muster AND a Golden Age, I still finish a distant 3rd. Nothing I could do against a couple of production monsters like Maria and Hiawatha. My culture is going to be very slow, but I think it will be enough. I've finished exploring the map with a caravel, and the seas are so thick with pre-industrial ships I can barely move 2 hexes/turn. I really have never seen so many ships. I'm almost glad I didn't go for a frigate-rush.

I have a ton of FPT, and nowhere to spend it yet, as I'm nowhere near finishing Rationalism. So I use a GE to beat Kam to SoL, and I'm feeling pretty good about catching up as my BPT are up to 1000 after finishing Labs, and my happiness issues seem to be a thing of the past after early tenets.

So here we are, 6 civs left, 4 Order, 2 Freedom. I'm producing, have a bit of cash now, 2 CS allies and am working on 2 more with spies. The two that I have (1 merc., one maritime) are giving me a total of 14 aluminum. this is nice because, as I may have mentioned, THERE ARE NO FREAKIN RESOURCES ON THIS MAP!.

Enough background. Here's where it gets fun (translation; here's where my blood pressure goes up).

Around t250, we have all DoW'd Sully, and Maria delivers the killing blows. So now her massive army is on my doorstep. I notice Gandhi massing troops up near my northern border, and I'm about 5 turns away from foreign legions. Now I should have taken my 3rd Rationalism tenet here, but it's pretty obvious I'm going to need some troops ASAP. This would prove to be a mistake, but I'm not sure I had a choice. Had I won World's Fair, I'd have had the Foreign Legions early enough to take out Istanbul myself AND had all tenets of Rationalism.

Anyways, we're down to 5 civs now, Kam and I are best buddies, and I've had several DoF's with the 3 Order characters. Still, it's pretty obvious who is next on the chopping block, and 2 different leaders politely inform me that Gandhi wants to kick off the Roman invasion shortly. The only resources I have are 4 horses, 2 iron, a bit of GPT, and 14 oil (7 of which I'm already using). It costs me 2 luxuries I didn't have spare copies of, 10 GPT, all horsies and iron, and thankfully no oil, but Kam, who has settled on our continent in the NE peninsula agrees to DoW Gandhi. This buys me my time and about 8 turns later, Gandhi backstabs me but I'm prepared. The fighting near Neapolis is pretty bloody, but I was ready for him, with Kam's help.

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I've got 2 Battleships at Neapolis, 1 Fighter (decimating his GWB's and Tri-planes) a couple of Mobile Artillery, and several Infanty/Mobile SAM rotating in and out of the citadel and taking abuse from his artillery. Bombers aren't very useful as he has a lot of anti-aircraft. Down South, I've got 2 Battleships and 2 Subs just picking his navy to pieces while protecting my Offshore Platform. Maria and Hiawatha beat me to Apollo Program, but I'm not worried. I have a couple of GS reading to bulb, and I use a GE to get Hubble. I'm now 2nd or 3rd in science, only 2% behind Maria.

Maria, bless her heart, proposes International Space Station. THIS is exactly what I need. I'm fine with my war being stagnate, I have a GA ready, all 5 cities are producing pretty well, and I'm ok pausing in my SS part production for ISS. Now, all I need is for Maria to get caught up in a war and I've got a chance. Sounds like a good plan, right? Well, Maria agrees with my thinking and DoW's ME!!! The ISS took 3 turns:

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Well, at least I got my free GS. So now I'm still just holding off Gandhi, and I can't commit any more troops to advancing as Maria is going to be coming for me soon, and I have no idea where. Kam won't join me, and I have nothing to bribe with. I also can't really build any more units as 3 cities are building SS parts, and I'm worried about using more than 10 of my oil as that Offshore Platform is very vulnerable, even with a guard. I'm down to 3 of 8 TR's, have 2 cities starving, my 2 CS won't last long, and they are my only source of aluminum. I'm going to need to build some Recycling Centers or else I won't have any aluminum. There's also no Uranium anywhere near me (did I mention the lack of resources?).

So, here's my plan. We're at t290, and everyone has built at least 1 SS part (I've built 2 and am working on 1 in Rome and 1 in Cumae). I've got 2 Recycling Centers built, and every city is either working on war effort (subs/mech artillery/anything that doesn't require resources), selling unneeded buildings (I've got to get to 3050 gold for the last part and I'm only at around 1500), and trying to deal with happiness issues. All I have to do is stay alive, stay happy, keep kicking out 1100 BPT, and I'll have Spaceship Procurements around t305, which should win this freakin game. What could go wrong?

At t292, Hiawatha comes out of nowhere and DoW's me. He jumps right into the fray by Neapolis, tripping over Gandhi's corpses, and keeps me totally pinned down. He also takes out my last CS, which drops me into -10 unhappiness (evens up my tech advantage in war) and drops me down to 970 BPT, which means my final tech will take until around t315. Ah, but wait….Ravenna is going to pup a GS around t310, so I'm back in business.

I also now have to stop building SS part's # 3 & 4 because I'm out of Aluminum. Thankfully, I've still got a ton of faith banked, so I buy a GE, use it to build a Recycling Center in Cumae (2500 faith for 2 Aluminum is not a great deal), and build another RC in Rome (5 turns). This is an issue, as it means my plan of building the 5th SS part in Rome is going to be pushed back from t308 until t 313. I'm going to need peace and some extra Gold, as I'm going to have to buy SS parts 5 AND 6. Where am I going to find 2500 extra Gold? I've sold a lot of buildings, and now realize I can start dumping culture buildings too as I've got a GW popping at t304.

t301, Gandhi makes white peace. t302, he asks for an embassy. t303 he asks for Open borders. It's like he doesn't realize how close he came to costing me the game….either that, or he holds a grudge. At least he didn't nuke me. Hiawatha makes peace at t307 and even gives me 10 GPT. t308, Maria does the same (no gold). I even repair my fishing boats and get back to trading with these clowns and get my happiness back to zero. All I'm lacking now is some gold. So I call up my good buddy Kam, who has about 2650 gold. Again, I have no resources to sell him, but he is willing to give me 2600 for the low low price of the lovely cities of Antium and Cumae. Great, I've never sold off my cities before, but I just want this game over with.

t310, I pop my GS which gives me my final technology, Nanotechnology. Also, I buy SS part #5 in Rome.

t311, I buy 6th and final SS part. This game is FINALLY OVER!!! I have won!!!!!!!

Until Maria, GE builds her last 2 parts and steals the win. Just to rub it in, on t310 Maria proposes to repeal Arts Funding.

I hate this freakin map! I hate playing as Rome. I just need someone to hold me now.

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@Shark Diver experiences like the one you're describing (runaway AI on other continent launching first ) or worse (AI DOW and roll over few turns before I would've been able to launch) made me switch to domination victory .. No longer (so much) at the mercy of the AIs ..
 
@Shark Diver experiences like the one you're describing (runaway AI on other continent launching first ) or worse (AI DOW and roll over few turns before I would've been able to launch) made me switch to domination victory .. No longer (so much) at the mercy of the AIs ..

@Paddroelm; I get what you are saying. What's funny (to me), is that I ALWAYS played domination before stumbling upon these boards and learning from posters about the subtleties of other victory methods. There is a dramatic difference between doing so on Deity/Standard and Immortal/Marathon, which I played exclusively. I've been telling myself I need to watch a couple of domination LP's to get a better feel for both timing and/or exactly what is possible on Deity through warfare. Simply put, I'm not as good at it.

That said, we've all had the crazy AI do this stuff to us. It's not the losing that I mind (so much), it's slogging through a challenging start, barely keeping one's head above water, overcoming some difficult odds, seeing hope at the end…….only to have it yanked away at the very last moment. Not once, but twice. And I'm not upset, it's just therapeutic to rant on a keyboard at times.

I just wish it was the 24th today, because I am frothing at the bit to play the new challenge.
 
And to whomever came up with this map….well, let's just say you should not expect any Xmas presents from me this year.

Thx and though I'm obviously totally devasted to lose a potential present I'd say based on this & few other comments that the map achieved it's purpose of being at least slightly trickier than the challenges on average.
Tbh, the map wasn't quite what I had hoped but at least the starting location wasn't better than average.

And what comes to runaways it's like Pedro outlined it - nothing catches their attention like half a dozen nukes in their capital. Violence is the solution where diplomacy ends and nuking is bloody good fun, too.
 
Thx and though I'm obviously totally devasted to lose a potential present I'd say based on this & few other comments that the map achieved it's purpose of being at least slightly trickier than the challenges on average.
Tbh, the map wasn't quite what I had hoped but at least the starting location wasn't better than average.

And what comes to runaways it's like Pedro outlined it - nothing catches their attention like half a dozen nukes in their capital. Violence is the solution where diplomacy ends and nuking is bloody good fun, too.

Glad you'll survive the lump of cyber-coal in your stocking, and I'm glad you got the gist of my appreciation for the map. It's what a "challenge" should be. I just wasn't quite up to said challenge. Keep the interesting maps coming.

Regarding nuking Maria…..like Iran, I have yet to figure out a way to build a viable nuclear device without Uranium……
 
I'm fairly confident that I'll survive this unexpected ordeal especially when we are not in habit on leaving socks hanging around - on Xmas or otherwise - so any ilwill present may not arrive at all.

What comes to uranium one should always try to secure some or at minimum make sure that any unfriendly entities doesn't have it - especially when trailing in tech or othwerwise in less than fortunate position. Nukes are great equalizer and a nice first strike weapon besides you had the benefit of knowing the uranium resources in advance but total lack of it clearly requires even better German scientists.

And yes, given some time I should be able to provide nearly endless supply of crappy maps as I roll'em constantly for own use.
 
I'm fairly confident that I'll survive this unexpected ordeal especially when we are not in habit on leaving socks hanging around - on Xmas or otherwise - so any ilwill present may not arrive at all.

What comes to uranium one should always try to secure some or at minimum make sure that any unfriendly entities doesn't have it - especially when trailing in tech or othwerwise in less than fortunate position. Nukes are great equalizer and a nice first strike weapon besides you had the benefit of knowing the uranium resources in advance but total lack of it clearly requires even better German scientists.

And yes, given some time I should be able to provide nearly endless supply of crappy maps as I roll'em constantly for own use.

In my first attempt, I rage/quit before Uranium was revealed (plus I hadn't even scouted the whole map). I just know I didn't have any and I didn't see any CS with any (not that I could get an ally anyways). As for securing some from another civ, I believe that requires having resources/gold to trade (I had neither) which I tried, friends with Uranium to trade with, (somehow in short supply), sacking a city with Uranium (hard to do when in a defensive shell), or finding unsettled lands with Uranium (which doesn't happen when Hiawatha is around). I did try, it just wasn't meant to be.

Keep on rolling the crappy maps…..no, wait, I don't mean that.
 
domination turn 340. long game but I'm getting better at it.
went liberty and autocracy with 5 cities.In my game Sulieman was the common enemy and the first to be killed.he also had the chinese capital so I never had to declare on them ,same with Gengis that was killed before I got to capture is capital from Suly.
I was behind on tech the all game, got nuked twice ,never got higher than machine gun .
Love those logistic battleships :)
Great game
Thanks
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE:

Though this map is quite old, it can still be played, so if you play it and complete it, please send me a PM so I can update the finisher's spreadsheet.

Thank you.
 
Spoiler :
Hi guys. Almost at the end of my Civ mini-marathon so played for the Diplo victory with Rome. This time went with a semi-religious Tradition strat. Easy enough, using as many of the tricks used in the Small Piety strategy. The main issue was staying peaceful with and orchestrating the downfall of Genghis, as he had taken 5 CSs in the first 130 turns. Despite not spreading religion I was able to make use of lots of faith for lots of faith buildings and letting India give me their super relgion, used to buy science buildings (I kept a prophet for the end to make sure I had all my cities under my religion when I had allied all the CSs). Went Freedom and then switched to Order along with the rest of the world, so the World Ideology was passed without me needing to do so. I overestimated the science that various RAs and GSs were going to give me and I think I could have won this about T240, if I'd played optimally.
 

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I'm really struggling with this one, which makes sense as I:
*prefer pangaea
*have very little experience with Rome
*seldom build naval units, and when I do, mainly to explore
*seldom build seige units and likely don't use them effectively when I actually do

I'd like to win by domination, using at least one Roman UU, and have not looked at any spoilers yet. Can anyone help me with links to domination strategy/video on small continents type maps?

As general questions on Rome:
*how do you prioritize early tech re: their two UUs and the top of the tech tree (leading to Philosophy and Optics). I find the UUs are just far enough in to make the tech order rather tricky.
*how important is their seige unit?
*Liberty vs. Honour: I want to war with Roman UUs before T100 - is there any reason not to go right-side Honour?

Again, looking for general feedback and do not want any spoilers re: this specific DCL.
 
Looked at people's screenshots, and the map looks cute. Kind of want to go crazy with Liberty and expand on the continent, but Tradition opener might be needed. Also, with dance of aurora, dipping into Piety might not be even a bad idea to get religious buildings discounts (well if you get them). But that's too many policies already, and I doubt Representation will solve it.

Might try for a Liberty-Order SV. I think I haven't done an Order SV's ever. :lol:
 
Order SV is really fun, I did a couple of those, it definitely feels more immersive as it's all about the hammers
 
I want to war with Roman UUs before T100

I think this is a bad idea, and it's one of the reasons why I've never really bothered with this map. Using Classical Era units on Deity is really ineffective because the AI has Medieval or even sometimes Renaissance units to defend with.
 
OK I'll rephrase. Using Classical Era units OTHER THAN COMPOSITE BOWS is pretty ineffective. CBs are the exception, and even then, on Deity, the window is pretty slim. T75 you can be facing Longswordsmen, who will mince your CBs into small pieces.
 
Wow, this is rough. The plan was to go wide with Liberty, pick Charitable Missions, experiment with Exploration, and get Patronage. Pick whichever ideology is popular, and cruise your way to victory. But these small continents are actually quite painful for that.

I had to replay because first time around Charitable Missions were gone on t50 or something, Suleiman took a city of mine, and I was sitting in negative happiness forever. I replayed again with 4-city NC, settling the last 4 cities near t100 as happiness allowed. No happy buildings from religion, so I took happiness from shrines. I started scouting really late, so borders grew, and Suleiman hates me for now. I can't even find any other city-states than the original two. I am also very slow with my technological advancement, so I will probably miss the Forbidden Palace. Only whales as tradeable luxuries. The terrain screams Tradition, actually, but I will keep playing and see how far I can get.
 

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Once again, Diplomatic Victory is fool-proof. Got 45 votes out of needed 40 wtih world religion, world ideology, and Globalization. Sent external trade routes to make all that $$$.
 

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