I want to learn
- Thread starter barril
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Yeah, I'm not really getting the local unhappiness concept
Does every population of a city counts as 1 unhappiness? (Considering no sources of happiness whatsoever)
Does local unhappiness get detailed in the city screen or the happiness count? (top bar)
Global happiness I find much easier to understand and plan around!
Thanks for all the great input
Bimblecrumbs
Warlord
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Local happiness only refers to the citizens in a specific city. For example if a city has 1 population and a colosseum, the colosseum's normal +2 happiness is reduced to +1 because local happiness can never go beyond the number of citizens . Think of it as only affecting the population and not the +3 unhappiness due to founding the city; this +3 can only be countered by global happiness bonuses like wonders and luxuries.
So, local unhappiness has no effect on the empire happiness? But does affect a city production rate? Chance of revolts?
No, the local happiness and global are added, and produce the total happiness you see on the top part of the screen (empire happiness). The idea is that local happiness is capped by the local unhappiness, so buildings in cities cannot produce positive happiness. To put it in other terms a Coliseum or other happiness building in city A cannot make a citizen in city B happy.
Each citizen in a city produces 1 unhappiness so the local happiness in that city cannot exceed the size of the city. The result is you can't settle a city (that will give you 4 unhappiness - 3 from the city which is global, and 1 from the population which isglobal local) and rush buy a Colosseum and a circus or zoo to be even. The local happiness is capped at 1, so you need sources of global happiness, to compensate the global component of the unhappiness caused.
There are no revolts in civ5 but the penalties for unhappiness are for the entire empire and are severe. Here is a page on happines, but it does not explain the concept of local happiness.
Each citizen in a city produces 1 unhappiness so the local happiness in that city cannot exceed the size of the city. The result is you can't settle a city (that will give you 4 unhappiness - 3 from the city which is global, and 1 from the population which is
There are no revolts in civ5 but the penalties for unhappiness are for the entire empire and are severe. Here is a page on happines, but it does not explain the concept of local happiness.
Ok, I got it now! (I think)
Each city contributes 3 + each citizen to global unhappiness. To counteract local unhappiness you need to build +
buildings in the city in question; Those same buildings wont add to global happiness because the amount of local happiness does not exceed the number of citizens a city has, so having a Circus and a To generate global happiness you need to collect luxuries, discover natural wonders, etc.
Is that pretty much it? (not having in mind Social Policies, and Ideologies and stuff like that)
cazaderonus
Actual Dad.
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Thanks!
I've played a few more turns, here's the result:
Turns 25-50:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Thanks again for all the feedback!
I would have settled on the coastal hill right next to the mountain to allow for food cargo ships to feed the capital and make it grow a lot faster. Also would allow to build an observatory. But overall, the dirt around you is not that good. I'd try and catch the salt to the right asap with a city on the hill right next to the lake like you're suggesting. Usually you pick a a pantheon for your capital but i suppose desert foldlore could work here as you shouldnt encounter that much competition in religion.
Also, unless you play a pangea map in higher difficulties, one scout is more than enough. As someone mentionned, you cant rely on stealing workers at such low level as it will take forever for CS or AIs to build one. So my build order on Prince would be : scout\monument\worker\shrine\granary\settler\worker\settler\worker (if none can be stolen). That way you have your 4 cities up and starting to build granary\libraries early to get to a turn 80/90 national college.
For techs: pottery as pretty much always, mining, AH, calendar, writing, philosopy (if timed right compared to when all libraries will be built), if not squeeze in fishing to get a cargo ship in a coastal expo to feed the capital asap.
If you need an archer, you could buy it i suppose. even though gold can be hard to come by with prince AI. At that level you should also always sell your ambassy to AIs for 1 gold per turn when they get writing. You should get to the interesting settling spots before they do.
That would make the city count zero towards global happiness would it not?
Otherwise, global happiness would never be positive!
Your “etc” covers this, but a few wonders also add to global happiness directly.
The SP are varied, but I think most ideology tenets only add local happiness (but that works out fine).
I agree with most of what cazaderonus wrote, but I think two early scouts are good at lower difficulties too.
Wouldn't the overlap between Beijing and Shangai be a bit too much if we settled there? Unless I'm misunderstanding the tile you mean. As for grabbing the salt you mean the desert hill below Mombasa?
I'd say the biggest problem I have in my usual BOs is the first worker, I tend to get it later than I should, and that really holds me back. I will ponder about the second scout, but from now on I think a worker will always come after the monument (second scout).
Sounds good to me! Usually I refrain from giving Ambassy to civs I know haven't discovered my capital, but I guess that on Prince that is not as important.
I meant it would only count the -3 from the city founding penalty, or am I missing something? (again)
Yeah, I was just listing a few possibilities. I see, haven't really took a game as far as Ideologies
so I haven't experienced them yet.Thanks for all the feedback and input!!
Yes that is correct. The -3 is because each city adds 3 global unhappiness to the empire. The buildings normally generate 4 happiness, but because it is local it is capped by the local unhappiness generated by the population. So this means that 1 point of happiness is lost, until the city grows to size 4. If the city grows even further you need to compensate the extra unhappiness, with either local happiness (buildings) or global (if you have extra luxuries, etc).
As you can probably deduce, the local happiness is not really an issue, especially if you go tall since the local happiness will most likely never get capped. In late game , even with Colosseum, Circus, Zoo, Pagoda, and something like Militarism (+2 happiness per Barracks Armory and Military Academy) you get 14 local happiness, and your cities are likely to be bigger than that.
From what I know, and deduced, things that attach happiness to buildings, like +1 happiness for castles, +2 happiness for temples, etc. will add local happiness. Others give global happiness, with the exception of Universal Healthcare which gives local happiness even though it attaches it to National Wonders (and Guilds) which aren't really buildings. They are closer to Wonders than to buildings.
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I played the first 50 turns here.
Tech path was AH -> Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar -> Archery -> BW -> Sailing -> Writing (Partial). The goal is to get Calendar early enough so that we can hook up those Citrus and Incense resources as soon as possible:
BO: Scout -> Worker -> Scout -> Settler -> Archer -> Settler -> Settler
We have nearly identical units, except that I have two additional settlers + an extra Archer. You stole a CS worker - I didn't. Where did those extra hammers come from? When building settlers it is impossible to starve -> that means you can work as many hammer tiles as possible and get 12 hammers (@ 4 pop) here during the settler builds.
Shanghai is close to yours, but mine is coastal. Having multiple coastal cities is really strong since these can use Cargo ships to generate food surplus. Guangzhou is settled directly on the Citrus for fast luxury connection. By settling there the city tile gets an extra food and gold: A city tile always gets 2 food 1 production + any excess tile yields above that amount. Since unimproved grassland citrus is 3 food 1 gold the new city yield is 3 food 1 prod 1 gold.
I think the 4th city will likely head down the coast for the fish/dye/deer location. This city will be slow to develop but will be another Cargo ship location that can feed the core cities.
Tech path was AH -> Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar -> Archery -> BW -> Sailing -> Writing (Partial). The goal is to get Calendar early enough so that we can hook up those Citrus and Incense resources as soon as possible:
BO: Scout -> Worker -> Scout -> Settler -> Archer -> Settler -> Settler
We have nearly identical units, except that I have two additional settlers + an extra Archer. You stole a CS worker - I didn't. Where did those extra hammers come from? When building settlers it is impossible to starve -> that means you can work as many hammer tiles as possible and get 12 hammers (@ 4 pop) here during the settler builds.
Shanghai is close to yours, but mine is coastal. Having multiple coastal cities is really strong since these can use Cargo ships to generate food surplus. Guangzhou is settled directly on the Citrus for fast luxury connection. By settling there the city tile gets an extra food and gold: A city tile always gets 2 food 1 production + any excess tile yields above that amount. Since unimproved grassland citrus is 3 food 1 gold the new city yield is 3 food 1 prod 1 gold.
I think the 4th city will likely head down the coast for the fish/dye/deer location. This city will be slow to develop but will be another Cargo ship location that can feed the core cities.
Spoiler :
I though it was -3 happy per city then -1 per pop. But I understood your main point to be about a small city with multiple local happy sources. A key factor is that a lack of local happiness subtracts to global happiness, but a surplus of local happiness does not add to global happiness.
Say, for example, I found a new city and immediately rush buy a coliseum, burn a missionary, and then faith purchase a pagoda. Would my Global Happiness still decrease?
Local happiness being wasted is not really an issue, but aren’t tall (i.e., >14) cities contributing to global unhappiness? Periods where there is insufficient local happiness seems to be a pretty significant issue in my games. That is when I have to start on zoos...
I agree that (between circuses, coliseums, and religious buildings) small to medium size cities are not an issue for global happiness (at least not after they get going).
Yeah, I thought I had the right idea
I guess you'll just get enough happiness from other sources to offset the penalties from local unhappiness.
That's good to know (about the SPs). Hopefully I wont get discouraged and I'll be able to see this map till the end (win or lose) and check out what kind of bonus SP give and how they work.
I played the first 50 turns here.
Tech path was AH -> Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar -> Archery -> BW -> Sailing -> Writing (Partial). The goal is to get Calendar early enough so that we can hook up those Citrus and Incense resources as soon as possible:
BO: Scout -> Worker -> Scout -> Settler -> Archer -> Settler -> Settler
We have nearly identical units, except that I have two additional settlers + an extra Archer. You stole a CS worker - I didn't. Where did those extra hammers come from? When building settlers it is impossible to starve -> that means you can work as many hammer tiles as possible and get 12 hammers (@ 4 pop) here during the settler builds.
Shanghai is close to yours, but mine is coastal. Having multiple coastal cities is really strong since these can use Cargo ships to generate food surplus. Guangzhou is settled directly on the Citrus for fast luxury connection. By settling there the city tile gets an extra food and gold: A city tile always gets 2 food 1 production + any excess tile yields above that amount. Since unimproved grassland citrus is 3 food 1 gold the new city yield is 3 food 1 prod 1 gold.
I think the 4th city will likely head down the coast for the fish/dye/deer location. This city will be slow to develop but will be another Cargo ship location that can feed the core cities.
Spoiler :
Well, that's much better than anything I would've been able to do on my own at this point
A few questions:
1 - Why AH first? To reveal Horses and let you decided on the best locations for your expos?
2 - I assume you skipped the Monument because you also got a culture ruin, correct?
3 - I understand why you settled Shangai on the coast, but like I asked cazaderonus, wont that location have too much overlap with Beijing? Speaking of which, what are the negatives/positives about overlap (in general)?
4 - What was your first build in Shangai?
5 - From what you said, you plan on sending a cargo ship to your 4th city. What will you do with the other trade route you have available? Sending it to Beijing to catch up on growth? (Since you didn't grow while building the Settlers)
I did know about the no starvation when building a Settler, but it's something (moving the worked tiles to the most hammers) I haven't done on a regular basis so far.
What I didn't know, was how the city tile stats worked (when settling) that was quite enlightening! Thanks
I really appreciate you taking the time to do this! Thanks again!
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1 - Why AH first? To reveal Horses and let you decided on the best locations for your expos?
Yes and because there is time before we need that Luxury hook-up. I need to build a Worker first. Even then the extra happiness is not needed until turn 35 or so. Since we'll be working hills to build the settlers similar logic is used for Mining. Some players really like an early Shrine and so will go Pottery first.
2 - I assume you skipped the Monument because you also got a culture ruin, correct?
Yes!
3 - I understand why you settled Shangai on the coast, but like I asked cazaderonus, wont that location have too much overlap with Beijing? Speaking of which, what are the negatives/positives about overlap (in general)?
A size 20 city will only be working 15-17 tiles since Scientists and the Guild specialists have priority. Generally that means overlap is only an issue if you found cities at the minimum distance or have a lot of dead tiles (desert, sea, mountains). I'm not worried here.
4 - What was your first build in Shangai?
The Worker. Decided to grow to size 3 before focusing on hammers.
5 - From what you said, you plan on sending a cargo ship to your 4th city. What will you do with the other trade route you have available? Sending it to Beijing to catch up on growth? (Since you didn't grow while building the Settlers)
First two trade route will be Cargo ships to Beijing, the next one will go to Shanghai. After that, it depends on happiness and gold.
Yes and because there is time before we need that Luxury hook-up. I need to build a Worker first. Even then the extra happiness is not needed until turn 35 or so. Since we'll be working hills to build the settlers similar logic is used for Mining. Some players really like an early Shrine and so will go Pottery first.
2 - I assume you skipped the Monument because you also got a culture ruin, correct?
Yes!
3 - I understand why you settled Shangai on the coast, but like I asked cazaderonus, wont that location have too much overlap with Beijing? Speaking of which, what are the negatives/positives about overlap (in general)?
A size 20 city will only be working 15-17 tiles since Scientists and the Guild specialists have priority. Generally that means overlap is only an issue if you found cities at the minimum distance or have a lot of dead tiles (desert, sea, mountains). I'm not worried here.
4 - What was your first build in Shangai?
The Worker. Decided to grow to size 3 before focusing on hammers.
5 - From what you said, you plan on sending a cargo ship to your 4th city. What will you do with the other trade route you have available? Sending it to Beijing to catch up on growth? (Since you didn't grow while building the Settlers)
First two trade route will be Cargo ships to Beijing, the next one will go to Shanghai. After that, it depends on happiness and gold.
That makes sense. Especially considering that you planned on getting the settlers out that early! One more point I need to improve is choosing techs based on my early game plan and resources available!
I didn't know about scientists and specialists not counting as "city workers"! About guilds, I've seen the term Guild City around the forum, what makes a city a particular good city to have your guilds on?
Do you mind elaborating a bit more on this point please? I always go shrine/granary on my second city
Could you also explain how happiness will impact the next trade route? I suspect that if you're unhappy you'll use an internal trade route to offset the crippled growth in your capital, is that it or is there more to it?
Thanks again for all the help and input!
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About guilds, I've seen the term Guild City around the forum, what makes a city a particular good city to have your guilds on?
Usually just sufficient food surplus to work the specialists without sacrificing all growth. Having access to a Garden (fresh water) is also nice. Whether to put these in the capital is tricky. I usually put the Writer's Guild elsewhere so the capital can grow faster and get more benefit from the National College.
Do you mind elaborating a bit more on this point please? I always go shrine/granary on my second city
This is a big difference between Prince and Deity. At Prince it is much harder to steal workers so several need to be built, I think. As you increase the difficulty level fewer and fewer workers need to be built (unless you intentionally avoid stealing them). In general, you want to be improving tiles as fast as your cities are growing, and you want to grow quickly.
Could you also explain how happiness will impact the next trade route? I suspect that if you're unhappy you'll use an internal trade route to offset the crippled growth in your capital, is that it or is there more to it?
The other way around actually: If getting close to unhappy I'll use an external route for GPT aiming to buy a Mercantile city state. Food surplus is nearly useless (-75% penalty
) when unhappy. If there is plenty of cap space (lots of happiness) then internal food routes are the strongest in the early/mid game.
Usually just sufficient food surplus to work the specialists without sacrificing all growth. Having access to a Garden (fresh water) is also nice. Whether to put these in the capital is tricky. I usually put the Writer's Guild elsewhere so the capital can grow faster and get more benefit from the National College.
Do you mind elaborating a bit more on this point please? I always go shrine/granary on my second city
This is a big difference between Prince and Deity. At Prince it is much harder to steal workers so several need to be built, I think. As you increase the difficulty level fewer and fewer workers need to be built (unless you intentionally avoid stealing them). In general, you want to be improving tiles as fast as your cities are growing, and you want to grow quickly.
Could you also explain how happiness will impact the next trade route? I suspect that if you're unhappy you'll use an internal trade route to offset the crippled growth in your capital, is that it or is there more to it?
The other way around actually: If getting close to unhappy I'll use an external route for GPT aiming to buy a Mercantile city state. Food surplus is nearly useless (-75% penalty
) when unhappy. If there is plenty of cap space (lots of happiness) then internal food routes are the strongest in the early/mid game.
wayneb64
Prince
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- Nov 21, 2005
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About guilds, I've seen the term Guild City around the forum, what makes a city a particular good city to have your guilds on?
Usually just sufficient food surplus to work the specialists without sacrificing all growth. Having access to a Garden (fresh water) is also nice. Whether to put these in the capital is tricky. I usually put the Writer's Guild elsewhere so the capital can grow faster and get more benefit from the National College.
Do you mind elaborating a bit more on this point please? I always go shrine/granary on my second city
Guilds are buildings that you put workers in to earn great people. That takes away from a cities growth as they are not producing food. Normally the city with the highest food income but maybe not so much production is the best candidate for all your guilds. This is not something to worry about in the beginning while you are booming your civilization, but later as your cities mature.
Erneiz Hyde
Warlord
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Most of the time Guild City is your capital especially when going Tradition. But you can split your guilds if none of your cities can handle all the guilds and the science building. River city is preferable for Gardens as well.
Settling on a hill is always preferable, all other things being equal. The +1 production from the get-go is worth *way* more than whatever the mine would have eventually yielded.
The defensive bonus that city gets is also nice, but it's rarely the prime motivation for setting on hills.
I pretty much always build a shrine as soon as I finish researching Pottery, which is usually the first tech I research. Even if I don't plan on truly chasing after a religion, it's nice to get my pantheon going ASAP. (God-King is often a nice pantheon selection if you have no intention of trying to get a full-blown-religion.)
For most starts I build Scout-Scout-Shrine-Granary, and going full Tradition takes care of the Monument. Eventually. I'm still playing around with my build order when I go Liberty, but so far I'm liking Scout-Monument(pause when Pottery researches)-Shrine-Finish Monument-other stuff.
I think the consensus is that Tradition is usually stronger than Liberty, and that's certainly been my experience. Then again, I'm used to Tradition, while Liberty feels kinda alien.
Yes, Pagoda and Colosseum give local happiness, which at that time is capped at 1. You will see a drop of 3 happiness to your empire happiness caused by the global 3 unhappiness per city. The good news is that that city can now grow up to size 4 and not influence your happiness.
That is probably also influenced by unhappiness from ideology pressure. Even though tall cities grow beyond the maximum local happiness available, the bonuses from Tradition, a couple of happiness tenets from ideology and having an average of 2-3 unique luxuries per city should give you enough to be in positive happiness. Some alliances with CS may also be required, but usually at that stage in the game it's easy to maintain at least to CS alliances
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