Looking to improve my early game on Deity

Hey everyone, I'm looking to improve all areas of my play but I want to start honing my early game first to have a solid foundation to build on.

I've won quite a few Deity games already so I'm not new to it. However, I played mostly on Epic game pace as I first got heavily into Civ because of Marbozir's LPs. But, more and more I have less time to play the game and Epic pace just takes too long. I'd be playing for the first 200 turns, as an example, and then something in my life came up and when I was able to return to the game 2 weeks later I'd have no idea of what I was doing and generally lost interest in that particular game, so I'd start another. I've switched to Standard pace and I'm learning a lot from the forums and from watching Acken's LPs however, I still have A LOT to learn to become as good as he is.

I have taken some screenshots from the first ~60 turns of four games I've recently started, including DLC #17. I have gone Liberty in all of them except the Ethiopia game. I also picked the Tradition opener and then took Liberty in the Germany game.

A quick rundown through the games:

1st. I play as Portugal, got a decent start and I settled Mt. Klimanjaro with the Liberty settler. I did lose quite a few turns training a worker I haven't finished because I thought I wasn't going to be able to steal any (I only managed to steal one from Haile on turn 20) and I wanted to get my improvements ASAP as I am bee-lining for Petra and my cap doesn't have great production. I was lucky enough that Antwerp's borders didn't expand to Ulhuru and the screenshot is from the turn I settled Braga and bought the tiles. I probably should've started on the 2nd settler right away... Should I have gone Tradition? I only see 2 more expansion tbh, one near Sweden to grab some Gems and maybe the one to the N of Braga to grab the Marble...

2nd. As Carthage, I think I got a good start, was a bit unlucky again with worker-stealing as my closest neighbor isn't all that close. In the screenshot I am building a caravan to send it to Utique to be able to grow it enough to build Petra, is this a good idea? How feasible is it? I also just finished the 2nd settler and I'm going to forward settle China to grab the sugar. This may be very risky... Other than that I have a good expo to the S of Carthage and maybe to N, where the bananas are but, I have to do some more scouting around that area.

3rd. DCL #17, this has been a tough game so far. I saw a big army coming towards my cap and as I wasn't able to bribe my neighbor to DoW on anyone but for my only copy of one of my luxes + some gold, I accepted that deal and then DoW on him myself to break it. This was very likely a mistake but I saw no other way to not have huge happiness problems. The screenshot is around 10 turns after the war started. I have lost a few archers and my 2nd city would've been gone if not for the AI's incompetence at capturing cities. My plan was to settle a 2nd city close to him on the hill next to the spices and the stone to have an easier time when attacking him but, now, I don't really know if I can go on the offensive and capture his cap before he gets his UUs.

4th. As Ethiopia, the only Tradition game. I think this game has gone better than the rest but I really don't see that many good spots for cities, there's no production and no unique luxuries. Theodora just settled a spot next to Rock of Gibraltar, which, didn't look too bad despite the tundra. My settler will be going to the N of my cap once I get rid of the Hand-Axe that's right next to it. I did forward settled Hiawatha in an area that's heavily forested so, that might be dangerous if he decides to attack but, I wanted to grab the wonder.

Any tips and suggestions from more experienced players will be very welcomed. As I said, I really want to improve to get better timings on my victories and be more competitive. I've been watching Acken's videos to see the game through the eyes of a much, much more experienced player but I thought I should still get some input from others. Thanks in advance and be as brutal as you want!

Wow, 300 views later and there's no one who has any tips or suggestions? I guess this wasn't the place to post this, even though the forum says "Strategy & Tips". I had the impression this forum was all about helping others. Oh well, thanks for anyone who read it... I guess.

1. Doesn't look like a petra game to me. Better to just settle more cities than to sit on 3 and build.. a library..? I also see the AI has luxuries for trade that you aren't taking. Always trade for their luxuries asap even if you have just 1 copy of yours online if you know you can get more. For instance here you could get more wine.
You could also have settled marble and ivory already as well. Could have 5 cities planted by now instead of 3, which is what you want for liberty.

2. Building petra in an expand is just about impossible on Deity unless you get very lucky and use the liberty engineer to rush it. It's certainly possible but very risky. You settled your city all-in for petra which is bad. That city is a dumpster without it and you're more likely than not to lose it. I would probably have just settled it next to that silver near the sheep. Then you get 2 more silver, sheep and cotton. 3rd city on that river hill for silk and sugar, 4th city on silver for whales and you're set. You will have a big hole in that desert, but that area is pure crap and the AI won't even try to settle it since it has no ressources ( unless there's oil in there or something )

3. Sadly you do need to wait for him to move his units away before you break the deal. Always nice to have a unit near warmongery civs like that so you can see if they're making an army and moving it towards you. Then you can queue up archers. Making 4-5 archers and 2 warriors is usually enough to repel just about any attack. It's slower and less efficient, but it's better than losing a city I guess.

4. With tradition you don't need too much. Just 3 cities is more than enough to win any victory type. 4 is great, obviously, and sometimes you can fit in a 5th, but whatever. Your capital is your main source of everything so it doesn't matter how crap your lands are, but if you have good lands then you just win even more. That's why tradition is EZ mode
Even a perfect liberty game doesn't compete with a normal tradition game, it's pretty dumb.

Anyway make sure you park scouts near hiwata to see if he's planning to attack you. You can also try to use him as a worker /XP farm. This cripples AIs. Just make 3-4 archers and 2 warriors and park yourself near their lands and just harass them and kill their units as they come out. You'll see them slowly lag behind every other AI as they start to dedicate production towards military that dies for nothing.

Liberty is hard to play on Deity for two big reasons:

1- The AI starts with two cities, which eats up all the lands.
2- Expanding fast and close to AI ( which you kind of have to on standard size ) means all your neighbors will HATE YOU and attack you as soon as possible. Even the most peaceful civs will attack you just because you're settling cities too fast for their liking.

Anyway, not too much to say about early game it's all small decisions that add up to how much further ahead you can get. Just from a screenshot it's hard to tell too much.

Hey poxpower, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I didn't want to really do a super detailed essay on each game with timings and all that (in case no one replied lol) but, perhaps that would've been better? I know screenshots aren't ideal but I thought it would at least give others an idea of were I'm at. For example, I don't have my TRs up in any of those games. Should I have at least one by that point? And, about Liberty vs Tradition, I thought that as well until I saw Acken's videos, the guy even did a Liberty-Piety game and had great results. He kinda got me excited about Civ again, playing the same Tradition game every time got me a little bored with the game.

1. My reasoning for building a library was to maybe shave a turn or 2 for Petra tech but, I guess if the AI is going for it, that won't really do much. Tbh, I think I might have settled the wrong city first in this game. If I'd settled Ulhuru first, I might have had a chance for a religion. But, you're right, I should have at least one more city up. I don't know about a fifth one, though. How would I get the happiness to sustain them all before turn 60? As I said, I got my first worker at turn 20...

2. Yeah, I think planting that 2nd city there was very likely a mistake. Even if I get say, 2 more pop out of the caravan, that would still be a long hard build for Petra. There's still the possibility of the Liberty GE but, very unlikely... In retrospective, I probably should have grabbed the coastal cities and then go from there.

3. So, you're saying it wasn't a mistake to DoW on him, then? I just should've tanked the unhappiness till he moved his units before doing so? Hmm... yeah, that might've been the right call. As it is, what would you do right now? As you can see, I'm building libraries to not delay the NC too much but, perhaps I should still be making units? Or building a settler to plant the city I mentioned? He is at war with his other neighbor and I've killed quite a lot of his units by now so, maybe there's still hope.

4. I sort of agree with you but, I don't really like sitting with just 3 cities, it can get really unpleasant against AIs who love to spam cities like Rome, or even Hiawatha, I've seen him go Rationalism/Order more than once. Amazingly, he went Tradition this time around, which is unexpected so, maybe the city spam won't be too obnoxious. I was thinking that a city NW of my cap to grab the other silvers wouldn't be too terrible. The production would be low but, it be good for science and TRs, at the very least?

I think that the early game is just about the most important part of the game so that's why I posted this. A strong early game could easily mean turn 75 NC, instead of say, turn 100 or something and I wanted to show my decisions in a variety of map types with less than stellar civs, apart from Germany, which I'm just replaying because I never finished my last game with them.

To expand fast with liberty, you can settle on luxuries. Alternatively, steal a ton of workers. By turn 60 it's not hard to have stolen 2-3 workers at least just from a city-state. Some games you're lucky and you get to steal 1-3 from a nearby AI.

It doesn't matter if you're unhappy for a little bit anyway. What you want to do with liberty is just work production tiles and get that monument/granary/library done asap. The capital makes settlers, so really unhappiness doesn't do much to you since none of your cities need to be growing before you're done expanding.

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3. Yes just wait like 4-5 turns for his units to go away. Being unhappy for some turns is better than losing a city. Anyway looks like you won't lose one there. Just keep making libraries. Don't see a good spot for more cities really if this is tradition, just go 3 city early NC and grow your capital and then maybe plant a 4th city somewhere, like on that sugar up there. Eventually that'll be some kind of decent science jungle city.

4-Yeah silver city is fine. Ethiopia is a really peaceful civ and you have a large river to work to grow a big expand that will generate a lot of science with civil service.

On Deity is very hard to lose a science game really. You have like 300+ turns to win so if you just want guaranteed victory, then being suicidally efficient with the early game by not building military is dangerous. As long as all your cities are connected with roads and you have like 4-5 ranged units and 2-3 blocker units, the AI can basically not do anything to you ever.
Then it just becomes a matter of managing your empire semi-competently until you win

I only opened Tradition on that Germany game, went Liberty after that. Not that I have anything against SVs but Domination and Culture have always been the ones I enjoy the most, although Domination can get very tiring in the late game. I want to have a good feel for setting up these VCs, if possible.

I don't know if I will end up playing these games to the end or just work on my early game till I feel it's strong enough. But I think I will do an update of these games at turn 100, that's still early-ish. Thanks for the feedback again!

The early game is like the only part of the game worth playing
After industrial it kind of stalls out imo.

Having glanced over your notes, I recommend two things:

1. That you take one strategy and practise it until you feel comfortable with it, then move onto another strategy. Try not to learn them all at once. THis might mean that you abandon games, but it's gonna save you time, I think. Have a VC in mind when you choose a strategy. For Science and Culture, see Tabarnak's food caravans thread for early game; and Deau's Culture thread and Acken's Freedom Science thread for late game. For Domination, try Moriarte's Liberty thread and Peddroelm's Honor thread. Even my Domination thread might be of some use to you

2. Try to learn the most valuable skill in this game, which is situational awareness. You need to work out what the biggest challenge you're going to have is, and plan the best solution. In the DCL #17, the challenge is the nearby psychopath. Taking this as the example, apply logic to learn what will be the best way of dealing with him. Answer: take him out before he gets his UU. Second best choice is to do everything to make him love you, and take him out later, perhaps in a pincer movement with other AIs. Everything else becomes secondary to these main challenges. Forget about NC timing on this map. You have ED, a great UA, and either Honor or Liberty will work well in building an army to take out the psycho. It's not the kind of map where you can sit in place and try to out Wonder-spam the NW neighbour. Do the best thing you can with the start you're given.

These approaches have always served me well. I think the 3rd thing is to learn to think outside the box and try truly original stuff, but you can't run until you can walk, can you?

I think the best shared map to learn on is the CDG Inca one that Shark Diver made, btw.

Hey, consentient, really appreciate you dropping by, I've watched some of your LPs (was really enjoying that Carthage one!) and read many of your posts here.

1. I will definitely do as you say, I came back to Civ 5 because I watched Acken's liberty games and thought they were fantastic, I simply didn't know that a game on Deity could be won using only crossbows and his China LP is just amazing. I also really liked his wide CV games with Egypt and the Mayans. So, I'll be sticking to that Liberty play-style from now on.

2. This is so true. Situational awareness is precisely the skill I really want and need to develop. From timing a worker steal and not getting my warrior killed, even when I think he'll be alright, to figuring out the best city spots, to the bigger things like assessing what the biggest challenge is going to be. I'm posting a few more recent games I started to demonstrate:

- First 2 screenies are from my first game as Morocco. I have a friendly neighbor that needs to be taken care of. I DoW'd him for one of his workers early in the game and we haven't made peace so far. I've been able to take (I think) two (maybe just one) more workers from him that came out to improve some horses, I think that has slowed him down. I also was able to get the Pyramids in this game. However, I made a mistake here thinking 2 cities would be enough and, while they are enough to pump units etc, with the terrain being as it is it would take too many turns to get my units back to the cap for upgrading and then go back, I should've recognized this a lot sooner. The first ss is from the turn I settled Fes and the 2nd is where I stopped the session, having cut 2 forest and possibly a 3rd one to come to finish the library in time for NC. His UUs are pretty tough and even though one of my CB (the one who's nearly dead) is close to Range/Logistics, I think taking his cap will not be easy at all.

- Next is from DCL#14, as the Netherlands. I incorrectly chose Tradition because I didn't really see any more than 3 spots as good locations for cities. The cities have very low production and it will take forever to build a decent army. I have good happiness, good gold and good science thanks to Liz and Enrico but this will mean nothing once Dido comes knocking. She's in a war with Liz I paid for but that will definitely not last forever. I should've definitely gone Liberty here and try to take Dido out ASAP. I have bitter memories from when I first started playing on Deity and having her as my neighbor and getting wiped out.

- A very early ss where I didn't know how to proceed as Assyria. Do I rush to build a settler before Collective Rule to settle next to the wheat to grab the marble and have a closer base when I attack Arabia? Again I have Dido as a neighbor (sigh) and notice her amazing choice for a pantheon and look at my cap... yeah. A city to the N would be a great food city with 2 unique luxuries but, because of Dido, should I even bother settling more cities? Do I detour to Mathematics before Philosophy just as if you'd detour for Construction for CB? Do I research both Construction and Mathematics before Philosophy? Decisions, decisions!

- And last is from a game I started this morning as Shaka from the turn I finished the Pyramids. I was very unsure in this one about where to settle my 2nd city and I'm still not convinced I really placed it in the best spot. I settled on top of silver however, maybe it would've been better if I'd settled on the hill directly South, next to the wheat to grab 3 wheat, 2 silver and 1 truffles. This location is great for Tradition I think but, it's also 6 tiles away from my cap and I plan to attack Bismark as soon as I have more Spearmen, although he already had CB on T37. Again, I'm not sure where to settle next, I'm thinking of settling on top of the truffles to grab the Ivory too but, I really don't know...

I will definitely check out the threads you mentioned and that Inca game, is that the one Acken did a LP of? Thanks again, consentient and, if you have any more feedback, I definitely won't stop you.

I don't have time to read through a load of text, I'm afraid. Situational awareness will naturally grow with practice. My advice, download a DCL map (like Morocco, for example) and watch Acken's LP of the game on one screen while trying to play along. Now, different RNG things will happen, but the basic shape of the game will be the same up to a point. Then, stop the video and play for yourself and see how well you do. When you fall short of benchmarks, analyse in detail exactly what went wrong. But I can break 90% of errors into two categories:

1. Domination - basically all about gold and beelining. People usually don't manage their economy (for example building too many buildings) or they muck about and don't research the key techs on time.

2. Other VCs - cities don't grow, and diplomacy and defense are inadequate. If you've watched Acken's Maya game you'll see that he prepares for attacks and deals with them. So many turtlemongers think they can always get by with bribes and a few archers.

Sorry about the wall of text, man! I did went a bit overboard, didn't I?

Thanks again for the tips! I'll try the video thing while playing but, if that's too much on the PC (because, Chrome), I'll do a detailed benchmark for techs, buildings, etc on one of Acken's LPs and try to follow as best as I can.

Try an alternative to Chrome. There are loads of really lightweight browsers available now.

I was proposing you use two different screens, btw. YouTube is available in many TVs and blueray players now.

Ah, I see. That's not possible for me to do then. No problem, I'll do a benchmark list from one of Acken's LPs for say, the first 100 turns, or up to Education maybe, and try to play along. Maybe the Egypt one for starters and then the Morocco game but, fwir, wasn't that map fairly difficult? I'll share my results later today.

EDIT: ICL#13, as Egypt, following Acken's LP.
You were right, consentient. Doing the benchmarks was not enough, it's in the details where the good stuff is! I only went as far as when I got Petra, two turns later than him on T82. As you pointed out, many things were different in my game, for one, the AI seems to be a bit slower. However, as you can see in the ss, I am only now researching Sailing, which he did before Philosophy and took him 6 turns! I only detoured for a 2-3 turns BW (to get Citrus), when I reckoned the AI wasn't quite as fast as in his game. This is from the turn he got Petra for comparison.

I did make quite a few big mistakes. 1) I, very stupidly, didn't lock production focus in my cities until I saw a new guy pop on a purely food tile, after it'd already grown a few times so, definitely not good. 2) Couldn't settle my cities or improve my luxuries quite as fast because of where barbs spawned in my game. 3) Missed basic things, like chopping the forest W of Memphis (which he did on ~T60) to get faster buildings.

Other things of note: He had a cargo on T66 and I am just now researching Sailing. I was a bit lucky with CS and have 3 allies. By selling/trading luxuries I, inadvertently, timed a Golden Age followed by Representation. All in all, I'm doing OK in this game but there's definitely a lot of room for improvement.

The benchmarks aren't what really helps, tbh. You need to look at the subtle moves that surprise you. I remember when I watched that Morocco DCL, I was surprised that as soon as Acken hit 3 pop, he purposefully stopped growth and churned out workers, even before Collective Rule. I've used that trick ever since and it's very effective.

My normal build order for Liberty Domination is now:

Scout, Monument, Scout, Worker x3, Settlers. I bring Scarchers home as well as rush-buy an archer or two depending on gold.

Just commenting on the more recent screenshots:

@The Dutch game:

Building the National College in a 5 Population city is a waste of time. Do you have a Granary and/or Water Mill yet?

It also seems your capital has a horrible location with no Hammers at all. Try to improve mines first in these kind of scenarios and work them over gold. 27 turns simply is not worth it in the slightest. I see you built a Caravan, it would have been much better to build a Cargo ship and send it from Rotterdam to your capital. Having that additional food means you can work more mines.

@The Zulu game

This one looks very promising. I would forward-settle Germany to the east and then go straight to Civil Service, take them out and fill in the blanks. That should give you a four to six city empire that can compete for basically any victory, because of your great locations and having two original capitals, yours and Germany's.

Definitely also expand north and westwards after you got happiness in check. I would not peacefully expand anymore after say T70-80.

I've edited the last post with my results from the Egypt game. I'll follow up with the Morocco game, Will have to play it in windowed mode and have the video running in the background.

Thanks for replying, ycj. I really have to replay that Dutch game using Liberty, the cap has really appalling production. My worker is on the forest ready to chop it for the NC but that won't be nearly enough to make it OK, I agree. And, yes, I forgot to mention about the Caravan, I realized way too late that a Cargo would've been much better, I even chopped that Caravan. Definitely not good.

About the Zulu game, yep, heading straight for Civil Service after Writing. I've never played as Shaka but I suspect that's a better idea than to go Philosophy first? The problem with Germany is that, even though Hamburg is totally exposed, Berlin is behind mountains and hills but, I guess I'll just have to sacrifice a few Impis to get it at all costs asap. I'll settle that desert hill W of Hamburg next, as you suggest. Also, I think Arabia is to the East of Germany and they usually spawn around very flat lands so I hope that I'll be able to steamroll them as well afterwards. I'm thinking just to settle on the hill by the coast next to the wheat and the horses, even if it's a bit far, and just take cities but, we'll see, I've to explore up North to see if there's anything good around there.

Thanks for the feedback and awesome Marvin avatar btw!

EDIT: consentient, is this the thread you meant about food caravans?

Yup, that's the thread.

Another thing to consider, if you keep getting poor start locations, is to use the Hellblazer map pack, and/or moving your settler. On Deity I don't think 5 turns are gonna be game-breaking, and may even 'pay for themselves' if you move from a bad spot to a nicer one.

OK, just wanted to drop by to say good luck. I don't think I will be back on this forum for a good while.

Wa? Sad to see you go, man. Looking back on your old threads, asking for advice just like I am, you are, in my book, a shining example of gradually working towards higher levels. Thanks for the wishes and also for all the feedback you've given me, you'll be missed!

Btw, (you probably won't read this but) I tried the Morocco game just now while having Acken's video on the background and sadly, it looks like my game is already going to be very different from his. His game was, as someone in the comments mentioned, a "textbook" Liberty start. Even if the terrain is not amazing, by any means, he made it work with such ease...

consentient said:

I was proposing you use two different screens, btw. YouTube is available in many TVs and blueray players now.

Click to expand...

That is brilliantly simple approach. That might even make videos useable for me. I can appropriate one of the Kindles from the kids or the wife some Saturday morning while they sleep in.

You said the Morocco DCL game works well for this technique. Is the China DCL game also well suited?

consentient said:

My normal build order for Liberty Domination is now:
Scout, Monument, Scout, Worker x3, Settlers. I bring Scarchers home as well as rush-buy an archer or two depending on gold.

Click to expand...

Did you do this with the current CDG China game?

consentient said:

OK, just wanted to drop by to say good luck. I don't think I will be back on this forum for a good while.

Click to expand...

Nuts. Good luck yourself! I hope you return sooner than later.

Back to report some more "progress". I decided to tackle another ICL (#16, as Siam), after the success of the Egypt game I won on T210. I played up to T96 and, as I was having trouble deciding how to proceed (because I'd really like to take out Moson Khani as it's very open and it has 2 luxuries my cities are demanding) and because I was curious to know where the heck is the 7th AI, I decided to have a look at the comments on that thread.

Acken said:

Detailed write up. Culture victory on turn 210 with 21 wonders

Si-Satchanalai is founded in the desert in the east, it can be a decent city and I have hope to make Petra there on Immortal. We'll probably immediately DoW an AI that has a desert capital. We'll have to make sure Atilla is occupied.

Spoiler :

We finish NC on turn 71. As none of the AI have taken tradition that I know of, hanging gardens should be an easy pick. Alright Petra is launched, 27 turns We also finish Tradition on turn 79 and hanging gardens are finished turn 80. Time to pump out some archers which I will then quickly upgrade to get rid of the Huns menace. I adopt Patronage on turn 90 and Petra is finished turn 92.

Click to expand...

It's hard to evaluate how well I am doing. I've been trying to stick to one strategy only to explore it and get comfortable with it so, I chose Liberty without second guessing. In retrospective, it'd have been better to open Tradition first, as in the Egypt game. But anyways, ToA was gone pretty early, as well as HG (Ethiopia).

I clearly misplaced the desert city, I totally missed that I could get the cotton if I'd placed it on the hill to the East. I also chose Earth Mother instead of Desert Folklore, which would have been stronger. As it is I need to read a bit about Religion, I got a Missionary first and in 2 turns I could either get a Pagoda, another Missionary, or wait for the 2nd Prophet to Enhance. I really liked Religious Community in that last game but I don't think choosing Pagodas was a "bad" option?



I was really uncertain about the 5th city, Phitsanulok, as it really lacks food. I think I was really trying to make Liberty work, in spite of the map not lending itself very well to it. I got Liberty finisher pretty late (I think) on T85/6 and got a GE to rush Petra, T88. Finished NC on T89. not super thrilled about that... I went straight for Currency instead of Philo but, seeing as apparently no AI has desert, it was yet another misjudgment on my part. Seriously though, what the heck is the AI doing? Assyria is OCCing, no one has luxuries for trade and I think 3 of them are in - gold. Could've allied another Cultural CS and got Liberty a lot faster, if the AI wasn't poor.