Alexander

Today is not Caturday.
 
Hi Keroro! It's been a long time! Glad to see you have updated this! I bought a new copy of Civ3 just so I could play this scenario.

I have a few comments based on my game so far (im not too far into it, only just starting my conquest of phoenecia):

First off, I applaud your efforts to reduce the Thessalian Cavalry spamming that I used to do... its much harder now! However, when you have units with the king flag spawn, they tend to use the name of your leader, or at least in my game they do. I now have one "Emperor Alexander III" unit of Thess. Cav. Its not a huge deal, just thought id bring it to your attention.

Secondly, I'm having a tough time economically, which is good. I really feel the pressure to push on for new plunder! I'll see how/if this changes soon.

Third, I think the tech timers might be broken, or at least off. In my game, it is currently Week 49, 334 BC, but a few turns ago I got the tech for 333-332. Now this may be just nitpicking and a matter of a few turns (which isnt too bad) but I was wondering if maybe including new buildings or something allowed other nations to research these techs a little too fast. This may also just be my specific game, but I thought I'd ask.

Fourth, it seems like there are a lot of arbitrary wars going on... or maybe not, I'm not sure how arbitrary they are. But I did have the Corinthian League revolt (ie the asian greeks signed an alliance) and I had the kelts, and karthago sign alliances, and i also saw some popups telling of wars further west i dont really care about. i dont know if new diplo options were added, but i felt i'd report what i've seen.

Anyway, thats it for now. its great fun so far! Well done!
 
Hi Keroro! It's been a long time! Glad to see you have updated this! I bought a new copy of Civ3 just so I could play this scenario.
That makes me feel pretty proud - thanks for still playing! :bounce: (Smilie: copyright Stormrage). Good to hear from you.

I have a few comments based on my game so far (im not too far into it, only just starting my conquest of phoenecia):

First off, I applaud your efforts to reduce the Thessalian Cavalry spamming that I used to do... its much harder now! However, when you have units with the king flag spawn, they tend to use the name of your leader, or at least in my game they do. I now have one "Emperor Alexander III" unit of Thess. Cav. Its not a huge deal, just thought id bring it to your attention.
Ah, I missed one. I thought I had sorted out the auto-producing wonders to produce non-king units that could be upgraded - that sorts out the problem. I'll correct that for any future patch, it looks untidy as you say. Thanks for the heads-up - very useful to know.

Are you still using large stacks of archers for bombard?

Secondly, I'm having a tough time economically, which is good. I really feel the pressure to push on for new plunder! I'll see how/if this changes soon.
Yes, that is good. ;) I tried to cut down on the amount of roads available to cut the income down at the source. Tech costs are also increased a little. Let me know what GPT you're getting. The conquest of Egypt helps to greatly increase the gold in your coffers (as it should :egypt:). Also let me know how much gold you're getting when you start conquering Persia - I disabled all rush build options for them and gave them tons of starting gold, so hopefully the plunder will be substantial.

Fourth, it seems like there are a lot of arbitrary wars going on... or maybe not, I'm not sure how arbitrary they are. But I did have the Corinthian League revolt (ie the asian greeks signed an alliance) and I had the kelts, and karthago sign alliances, and i also saw some popups telling of wars further west i dont really care about. i dont know if new diplo options were added, but i felt i'd report what i've seen.
The diplomacy options were tweaked a bit. I'm really trying to get Sparta to revolt rather than the League though, and it's proving difficult to convince them to to so. The Hellenic civs do have the ability to sign defence pacts and military alliances now, so that would normally increase the amount of arbitrary wars. It's not unwanted - the time frame of the scenario was hardly peaceful. Now if I could only get Rome and Epirus at each other's throats. ;)

Hopefully the way the western med is set up the wars over there shouldn't amount to much. :) There is not huge scope for actually capturing a city. In playtest it was always the barbarians that would go to war - Germanics, Celts and Dacians, but no-one ever quite managed to conquor a city.

Third, I think the tech timers might be broken, or at least off. In my game, it is currently Week 49, 334 BC, but a few turns ago I got the tech for 333-332. Now this may be just nitpicking and a matter of a few turns (which isnt too bad) but I was wondering if maybe including new buildings or something allowed other nations to research these techs a little too fast. This may also just be my specific game, but I thought I'd ask.
sorry, one more comment. It would be nice to know what you think the target number of turns per tech should be for the player. thanks!
The target should be 9 turns for each tech. That's the minimum time set in the editor, and for the player advances that should keep you on track. The timers have got a little out of kilter, which is a touch annoying. In the end, hopefully, it should all fall into place, but I know they're not quite named perfectly at the moment. Since the last version I had to change some of the timer techs from requiring the maximum research time (26 turns) to only requiring the minimum (9 turns), just to make the events and improvement obsoletions link up as intended. Once the events and improvements are working as they should I can go back and re-name some of the timer techs if required.

Actually, looking at your post again, you're only a couple of weeks from the year 333 and you've got the appropriate tech. That's not bad. I'm *fairly* confident that it will equalize, especially as several of the nations will go through a revolution at some point which will take 4 turns or so.

Have fun anyway, hope it remains enjoyable. Post some screenies if you get the chance. That goes for everyone! My version is in permanent debug, so the screens are terrible spoilers.
 
Yeah I do think the tech timers are REALLY close to perfect, so its not a big deal. close enough for me.

I am NOT using huge archer bombard stacks... actually, i really haven't built much of a military at all so far. its been almost exclusively city improvements. granted, I have a few hellenic outposts, so im getting a few Zenoi as I go to help secure cities. Otherwise, the available units aren't worth my effort. either A) they are too slow or B) they aren't that strong. So far my advancing army consists of the 3 generals, 5 phalanxes, hephestion, alexander, a few hetairoi, a few thessalian cav, a few agrianioi, and a few thracian cav. I find that (so far) if i use this small force wisely i can take on much larger forces, though currently My Issus is proving quite tense. I have lost 2 hetairoi, but otherwise im able to hold the line. enemy cav. is a constant threat, but i just attack with my weaker units and then transport them to tarsus so they wont die. I'm hoping that by the time i get into persia I will have some other units waiting in eastern anatolia and the levant.

As far as my economy is going... i have to say im quite concerned. I was running -81 gpt for a while, and then when i realized just how low my coffers were I lowered my science rate back until i was only losing 18 gpt, which still was a huge percent of my reserves (about 40%). I was hoping Phoenecia would give me a little added income or reserves, but sadly every city i take actually lowers the gpt due to maintenance costs. In fact, Kyrenacia took a city on northern anatolia and I was quite happy about that because it was actually good for my economy and it added about +4gpt to my income. I think I must be moving a little to slowly, because I think I should have phoenecia taken by now (based on where my economy is), but who knows.

As for research... I was running at every 9 turns... during my somatophylax inspired golden age. otherwise i kept it around 12/13 for my economy's sake... oops. I think keeping up to 9 is gonna see me bankrupt before I even get to phoenecia, which will presumably lead to disbanding units or selling buildings, neither of which I would like to see, but the latter of which may become a necessity.

Although I haven't lost any phalanxes yet and am therefore doing alright militarily, I think i might restart so i can try to keep up with the intended tech rate.

Can you give me some hints on how you intend things to go, regarding invasion route and intended army composition? I'm just curious how your intentions differ from mine. (if needs be, feel free to PM me this info)
 
As far as my economy is going... i have to say im quite concerned. I was running -81 gpt for a while, and then when i realized just how low my coffers were I lowered my science rate back until i was only losing 18 gpt, which still was a huge percent of my reserves (about 40%). I was hoping Phoenecia would give me a little added income or reserves, but sadly every city i take actually lowers the gpt due to maintenance costs. In fact, Kyrenacia took a city on northern anatolia and I was quite happy about that because it was actually good for my economy and it added about +4gpt to my income. I think I must be moving a little to slowly, because I think I should have phoenecia taken by now (based on where my economy is), but who knows.

As for research... I was running at every 9 turns... during my somatophylax inspired golden age. otherwise i kept it around 12/13 for my economy's sake... oops. I think keeping up to 9 is gonna see me bankrupt before I even get to phoenecia, which will presumably lead to disbanding units or selling buildings, neither of which I would like to see, but the latter of which may become a necessity.
Hmm, interesting. I forgot to ask what difficulty level you're on by the way? I'm not sure exactly how much it will get you, but a few cities on wealth for a few turns might be needed.

It's a balancing act, and it's pretty hard to get right. I may have gone too far in the hard direction. :mischief: Alexander actually had some major financial problems when first entering Asia, he desperately needed the money that his conquests brought in just to pay for his troops' wages. I'm trying to capture a bit of that desperation.

One note on the timers - the appropriate tech tends to arrive before you reach the area: eg, Phoenician Conquest tends to arrive as you arrive at the Levant, not when you're meant to have finished conquering the territory. Also, the Siege of Tyre has 9 turns allocated (because I can't really set the timings any other way), but you shouldn't need that much time to take the city - you should catch up a bit there. When you do get Egypt it makes a difference, it's a province with potential for tons of food (more food = more people = more tax). It's good to be Pharaoh. You should also hopefully find that you don't need your while force to subdue Egypt, one phalanx with a couple of cavs and zenoi/basic infantry to occupy the cities should be enough. The rest of your army can therefore keep pushing East, stealing a march on Persia.

I am NOT using huge archer bombard stacks... actually, i really haven't built much of a military at all so far. its been almost exclusively city improvements. granted, I have a few hellenic outposts, so im getting a few Zenoi as I go to help secure cities. Otherwise, the available units aren't worth my effort. either A) they are too slow or B) they aren't that strong. So far my advancing army consists of the 3 generals, 5 phalanxes, hephestion, alexander, a few hetairoi, a few thessalian cav, a few agrianioi, and a few thracian cav. I find that (so far) if i use this small force wisely i can take on much larger forces, though currently My Issus is proving quite tense. I have lost 2 hetairoi, but otherwise im able to hold the line. enemy cav. is a constant threat, but i just attack with my weaker units and then transport them to tarsus so they wont die. I'm hoping that by the time i get into persia I will have some other units waiting in eastern anatolia and the levant.
Can you give me some hints on how you intend things to go, regarding invasion route and intended army composition? I'm just curious how your intentions differ from mine. (if needs be, feel free to PM me this info)
Army composition: hopefully garrisons and a few peltasts at the back, the zenoi (in the early game at least) to help fill in the cities that have been recently taken - until you're able to build garrisons. Then it's pretty much as you are up front, the phalanxes and hypaspists, supported by cavalry. I do recommend taking the time to get the Thracian units to the front too, they're handy.

Where I differ from you is the use of heavier troops. I found when playtesting that basically, it's a question of keeping the main advance steamrolling on with the heavy troops towards the next major city, while taking care of threats with the lighter cavalry and skirmishers. If you keep a force of armies, pezhetairoi and catapults rolling constantly, from city to city, then they can take anything with relative ease. The cavalry units are just a bit fragile to constantly be taking cities on their own.

As for recommended route - see pretty much any map of Alex's route. Across Asia Minor by way of the biggest cities, down the Levant, through Egypt quickly and then back towards Babylon then Persepolis.
 
Ok, so I started a new game based on the desired tech rate and a focus on my economy. (btw, i always play on emperor for new scenarios, otherwise i play on deity)

I made sure to keep my tech rate to every 9 turns. nothing special is coming of it so far. but im on track.

I have made it just north of Byblos (just like last turn) but boy is this game different. First off it is now Week 26, 334 BC, as opposed to week 49, so im WAY farther ahead than last game. I decided to take the heavy slow units and pretty much trudge through the middle along the persian roads, while my lighter units, support, and cavalry snaked up and down asia minor. i basically split my forces in 2 (2 phalanxes with the central northern army and 3 in the southern). I decided to go straight to Sidon and Gordion to maximize the Knot. I think this helped... Anyway, I decided to actually take out the asian greeks instead of leaving one city so their preplaced garrisons would remain and hinder persia (made sense for movement's sake) and now im luckily encountering the persian cav way ahead of the rest of the army, so im doing my best to pick them off without losing many units, while simultaneously pushing forward with my main force. I hope to take Byblos next turn. My army is much stronger this time around, simply from hurrying garrisons (freeing other troops) and pushing the petzhetairoi forward.

As for my economy, its night and day. Remember how last time I was -81 GPT and had only a few turns at most till bankruptcy (and therefore turned down my tech rate)? well this time i did some things different. I usually just set the cities to automanage happiness, but i tried my hand at micromanagement, setting tax collectors wherever I could. What was the result? I currently have 2354 gold, plus 32 gpt. AND i have been able to keep my tech pace. AND i havent used my golden age yet (i did in the last game) so i have that to look forward to.

Anyway, this game is going QUITE well and I am excited to see if Darius can muster himself before I storm Babylon and Persepolis.

(Also I am attaching a screenie with some notes on it)
 

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As for recommended route - see pretty much any map of Alex's route. Across Asia Minor by way of the biggest cities, down the Levant, through Egypt quickly and then back towards Babylon then Persepolis.
Here's a simple list of cities in sequence I made for myself as a guide. It's based on some back & forth discussion with Keroro while I was playing the previous version. Maybe it will be useful to others.

Alexander's Goals


  • Zelea - Dascylium - Sardis - Ephesus - Halicarnassus
  • Side/Iconium/Gordium - Ancyra - Tyana - Tarsus
  • Byblos - Sidon - Tyre - Samaria/Jerusalem - Damascus - Palmyra
  • Egypt - any order you fancy
  • Persia - Resaina/Thapsacus - Nisibis - Arbela - Opis - Babylonia/Callone - Orchoe - Susa - Pasargadae - Persepolis - Aspadana - Ecbatana - the rest
  • Bactria - Kabul - Drapasca - Bactria - Nautaca - Samarkand
  • bribe Embolima and Taxilas
  • India - Indus valley towards Pattala
  • Optional - Gedrosian desert via Cocala - Gouadar - Pura and finally Hormozela
  • Maurya makes a good target, as does Italy. You can reclaim Macedon and Thrace
EDIT: Here's the text of his original fuller explanation. It discusses the timing in more detail.
Spoiler :
Right, as requested, some suggestions on how to tackle the first turns and what kind of order to try to take the cities in. Essentially you're going Asiatic Greeks - Phoenicians - Egyptians - Persians - Bactrians - Sogdians - Indians. That's the order Alex did it in, and if it's good enough for him...

First turn, deal with the first Memnon - bombard as much as you can to begin. Use cavalry to take out any supporting ranged troops and then hit with some of the tougher troops you have - try not to attack across the river! Take Zelea asap.

Second turn, a small force should be enough to deal with Dascylium, one army and a few cavalry should be plenty. The rest I would send across the hills to the south towards the city of Sardis.

Third turn, you should be able to take Dascylium, and get plenty of troops well within range of Sardis.

Fourth turn, take Sardis and move towards Ephesus. Your army from Dascylium can now be directed towards Chalcedon.

Fifth turn, get within range of Ephesus.

Sixth turn, take Ephesus. Memnon's second army should be spawned in Halicarnassus now.

Seventh turn, take Miletus. If Memnon has not already come at you then you can usually rely on the AI to keep him in the city.

Eighth turn, get in range and bombard Halicarnassus with everything you have.

Ninth turn, rinse and repeat if needed, or take him out if you can.

Now a list of cities to hit in order, if you're playing historically. It's not absolutely exhaustive, but these are the most important cities to take - you'll probably want to take all the other cities in your path too, but the order and speed will depend on you.

Zelea - Dascylium - Sardis - Ephesus - Halicarnassus - Side/Iconium/Gordium - Ancyra - Tyana - Tarsus.
Byblos - Sidon - Tyre - Samaria/Jerusalem - Damascus - Palmyra.
Egypt - any order you fancy.
Then back to Persia - Resaina/Thapsacus - Nisibis - Arbela - Opis - Babylonia/Callone - Orchoe - Susa - Pasargadae - Persepolis - Aspadana - Ecbatana - the rest in the order you find them.
Bactria - Kabul, then ignore India for the moment, go north through the pass to Bactria - Drapasca - Bactria - Nautaca - Samarkand.
Hopefully you'll be able to bribe Embolima and Taxilas.
India - Try not to stray into Mauryan lands to the east, just take on the other Indian power down the Indus valley towards Pattala
Optional - back westwards through the Gedrosian desert via Cocala - Gouadar - Pura and finally Hormozela. Hard core historians should make sure they take this journey.

After that the options open up more. Maurya makes a good target, as does Italy. You can reclaim Macedon and Thrace if you intend to push westwards, but you should expect either a fight (Antipater wouldn't be keen to give up power to a Medized despot) or you'll have to spend a lot in bribes.
 
I have made it just north of Byblos (just like last turn) but boy is this game different. First off it is now Week 26, 334 BC, as opposed to week 49, so im WAY farther ahead than last game. I decided to take the heavy slow units and pretty much trudge through the middle along the persian roads, while my lighter units, support, and cavalry snaked up and down asia minor. i basically split my forces in 2 (2 phalanxes with the central northern army and 3 in the southern). I decided to go straight to Sidon and Gordion to maximize the Knot. I think this helped... Anyway, I decided to actually take out the asian greeks instead of leaving one city so their preplaced garrisons would remain and hinder persia (made sense for movement's sake) and now im luckily encountering the persian cav way ahead of the rest of the army, so im doing my best to pick them off without losing many units, while simultaneously pushing forward with my main force. I hope to take Byblos next turn. My army is much stronger this time around, simply from hurrying garrisons (freeing other troops) and pushing the petzhetairoi forward.
Yes, keep those pezhetairoi going. They're too good to sit at the back. Good luck in the cavalry skirmishes, and I hope Darius turns up on cue to ruin your army (ruin it a bit anyway). There are more celebration wonders to come, in Tyre and Babylon if memory serves.

As for my economy, its night and day. Remember how last time I was -81 GPT and had only a few turns at most till bankruptcy (and therefore turned down my tech rate)? well this time i did some things different. I usually just set the cities to automanage happiness, but i tried my hand at micromanagement, setting tax collectors wherever I could. What was the result? I currently have 2354 gold, plus 32 gpt. AND i have been able to keep my tech pace. AND i havent used my golden age yet (i did in the last game) so i have that to look forward to.
Possibly the AI Governors had trouble with all the unusual options that aren't in the normal civ 3 game. As we can't touch the AI code there's no direct way to teach the AI to build appropriately or manage citizens for the best. They'll probably be useful later on to take some of the micromanagement away from you.

You seem nicely on track this time, over 2000 gold is impressive under a military government. With the Golden Age still to come you'll be fine up to Egypt. If you do change government at some point then let me know if it seems like a major change, I'm hoping it will give the game a different feel.

Thanks for the screenie! I admit I normally start at around regent or monarch level and work up to Emperor, but that probably just means you're a better player than me. :D

Here's a simple list of cities in sequence I made for myself as a guide. It's based on some back & forth discussion with Keroro while I was playing the previous version. Maybe it will be useful to others.

Alexander's Goals


  • Zelea - Dascylium - Sardis - Ephesus - Halicarnassus
  • Side/Iconium/Gordium - Ancyra - Tyana - Tarsus
  • Byblos - Sidon - Tyre - Samaria/Jerusalem - Damascus - Palmyra
  • Egypt - any order you fancy
  • Persia - Resaina/Thapsacus - Nisibis - Arbela - Opis - Babylonia/Callone - Orchoe - Susa - Pasargadae - Persepolis - Aspadana - Ecbatana - the rest
  • Bactria - Kabul - Drapasca - Bactria - Nautaca - Samarkand
  • bribe Embolima and Taxilas
  • India - Indus valley towards Pattala
  • Optional - Gedrosian desert via Cocala - Gouadar - Pura and finally Hormozela
  • Maurya makes a good target, as does Italy. You can reclaim Macedon and Thrace
Thanks Blue. :) That remains a reasonable guide. Wikipedia also has a decent map (click the map for bigger) that gives you an idea of the historical journey. Of course it's just a guide, but this route should let you hit the cities that are most important in the order in which they are most vulnerable.
 
hey i gotta run but i just wanted to be clear: I had no idea there were governments i could switch to! What else is available? What is recommended? I figured I should keep my government until a tech prompted me to change (a la RFRE) but I guess i just didnt think about it really...
 
Check the civilopedia, I made sure it's up to date on all changes. You won't have the other governments available yet, but Liberal comes later in the mediterranean tech tree and Imperial comes in the player tech tree after you've finished off most of Persia. I guess you'll get a minor prompt when you discover the appropriate techs. You'll notice that there are a lot of buildings that are specific to one government or another, and a load of wonders. I'm planning a few special units for a particular government too, though that takes quite a bit of playing about with the editor and available resources so it won't happen overnight.

One other thing that I totally forgot - if you enable the tutorial mode then you'll get little windows when you discover certain advances that give you a clue about where you should go next (assuming you want to stick to the historical progression).
 
Thanks for the bug hunting - I obviously should have checked the splashes more thoroughly. Fixed with the pediaicons file attached, which incorporates the other small fix from post 139. Drop into the AC v 1 50/Text/ folder.

Note to self - need to get some more pretty pictures for next release.
 

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Just a thought: maybe you should disable cultural conversions. I mean if a city flips, I think most players will reload and add an extra entertainer or something. Also, it SUCKS to see your newly acquired Resaina with ALL the units in your army (most anyway) flip and you are left with nothing more than a few zenoi. And again, I'm just gonna reload.

Also, for some reason I have not seen a single Engineer spawn in my capitol. I've been waiting and nothing! I mean i've been doing fine anyway, especially with egypt pumping out workers for free, but I wanted to report that too. It's odd though because everything seems to be in order, from the editor side to the in game requirements... but still nothing.

possibly related, I only fought the first memnon army and I have yet to see Darius, even though I am at the gates of Arbela. I should have it before the tech times is researched (hoping to avoid that encounter) but ill let you know how this works.
 
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