On Tech Diffusion and the Steamroll effect

I merged the recent TechDiffusion changes from AND but i reduced the effect a bit i changed TECH_DIFFUSION_KNOWN_TEAM_MODIFIER to 50 was 70 in AND and TECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_THRESHOLD to 75 was 90 in AND.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12968033 said:
I'm experimenting with the new tech diffusion; it works and I personally like it. But there is a possible downside. If you're ahead in techs, you see other civs keeping up with you and that's ok. But if you're behind in techs, there's a chance you get too far behind and hence you get a huge boost; something like from +60:science: to +60,000:science:. You're not really getting 60k :science:, because once you get enough techs to be above the tech diffusion threshold, you don't get the boost anymore. But you can use this boost to get 3-4 techs in the same turn (if using multiple research) or one tech per turn for 3-4 turns (if not using multiple research). If you queue enough techs, you get them and once you are above the tech diffusion boost threshold, research returns to "normal" levels. So you can't really use this boost to overtake other civs, but I admit that someone can find it strange to boost from +60 to +60k :science: if even for one turn. From a gameplay perspective though, it looks like it's working very good in keeping the game balanced.
If people don't like this new tech diffusion, lowering TECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_THRESHOLD inside \Assets\XML\TechDiffusion_GlobalDefines.xml to something below 20 should be ok and re-establish "old style" tech diffusion.


I also changed:
  • MinTechsBehind to 3 (was 2 in AND, 5 in C2C)
  • FullEffectTechsBehind to 6 (was 4 in AND, 8 in C2C)
  • BonusTechsBehind to 8 (was 6 in AND, 12 in C2C)
 
I merged the recent TechDiffusion changes from AND but i reduced the effect a bit i changed TECH_DIFFUSION_KNOWN_TEAM_MODIFIER to 50 was 70 in AND and TECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_THRESHOLD to 75 was 90 in AND.




I also changed:
  • MinTechsBehind to 3 (was 2 in AND, 5 in C2C)
  • FullEffectTechsBehind to 6 (was 4 in AND, 8 in C2C)
  • BonusTechsBehind to 8 (was 6 in AND, 12 in C2C)


Just FYI I've scaled down the tech diffusion in AND by a factor 100, specifically here

Code:
iModifier += (GC.getTECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_MODIFIER() * (iWelfareThreshold - iTechScorePercent))[S]*100[/S];

and it looks like it's good enough anyway (but I'm still experimenting). Techs behind can be set from BUG options, so players can adjust those parameters the way they like it. Finally, I'm planning to make this part of the dll code about tech diffusion handicap-level-dependant. That's because someone pointed out that at higher difficulty levels you can just exploit the tech diffusion almost without using the science tech slider. Be warned anyway that I had to use this part of the code specifically for AND for balancing reasons because techs costs were increasing dramatically through ages, so it could work differently in C2C.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13008548 said:
Techs behind can be set from BUG options, so players can adjust those parameters the way they like it.

On secondo thought, that's possible only changing xml files; you can set it via BUG options only if you're using cheat code.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13008548 said:
Finally, I'm planning to make this part of the dll code about tech diffusion handicap-level-dependant. That's because someone pointed out that at higher difficulty levels you can just exploit the tech diffusion almost without using the science tech slider.

Never mind, that also won't probably work. I can tune tech diffusion up or down but its effect will depend on your position in terms of techs. If I tune down tech diffusion, it will make your game harder if you're behind but actually easier if you're in the lead. And of course the opposite will happen if I increase tech diffusion.
 
You could edit the DLL so that tech diffusion is not the same for the player and the AI. More tech diffusion for AI on higher level and less for the human. On noble it is the same for both.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13008548 said:
Just FYI I've scaled down the tech diffusion in AND by a factor 100, specifically here

Code:
iModifier += (GC.getTECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_MODIFIER() * (iWelfareThreshold - iTechScorePercent))[S]*100[/S];

and it looks like it's good enough anyway (but I'm still experimenting). Techs behind can be set from BUG options, so players can adjust those parameters the way they like it. Finally, I'm planning to make this part of the dll code about tech diffusion handicap-level-dependant. That's because someone pointed out that at higher difficulty levels you can just exploit the tech diffusion almost without using the science tech slider. Be warned anyway that I had to use this part of the code specifically for AND for balancing reasons because techs costs were increasing dramatically through ages, so it could work differently in C2C.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13010837 said:
On secondo thought, that's possible only changing xml files; you can set it via BUG options only if you're using cheat code.



Never mind, that also won't probably work. I can tune tech diffusion up or down but its effect will depend on your position in terms of techs. If I tune down tech diffusion, it will make your game harder if you're behind but actually easier if you're in the lead. And of course the opposite will happen if I increase tech diffusion.

I reverted your previous version because it was a bit extreme. You might want to tune it down a bit more and it should be scaled with the Era and Difficulty.


You could edit the DLL so that tech diffusion is not the same for the player and the AI. More tech diffusion for AI on higher level and less for the human. On noble it is the same for both.

It is possible to scale TechDiffusion with the difficulty level and separately for the AI. I think it should be scaled with the difficulty, if you play on a high difficulty the AI has a bonus.
 
It is possible to scale TechDiffusion with the difficulty level and separately for the AI. I think it should be scaled with the difficulty, if you play on a high difficulty the AI has a bonus.

You're right, I've considered it and it shouldn't be too hard; I'll see what I can do and I'll share my code here once I'm sure it works.
As for the original code, it was experimental as I've said; I've already tuned it down by a factor 100, but the reason why it looks huge anyway is the increasing cost of techs in AND, which is different from C2C.
 
Is it possible to see somehow somewhere how much is the real game effect of tech diffusion?
E.g. How much does AI XYZ actually get from tech diffusion?
 
You don't have a report on how much they are bringing in (I suppose unless you have enough espionage and can see their research income) but you can see how much you are: +x TD.
 
Thank you for your help!

I saved my game in the world builder, started the game as multiplayer scenario and checked with each civ. The info never shows up like that but I think I still figured how much they get. The number displayed is a LOT more than the sum of what they get from their cities. E.g. one guy has only a capital with 41 research but he gets 176 total research. So I guess the difference is tech diffusion.

And I also think it is way too much. The civs being minor and no writing has been discovered. No foreign trade. Tech diffusion should barely be noticable under these circumstances
 
TD has gone through a lot of editing and adjusting and probably still has a lot more to go to get it to a target point we can all agree with. But for now... not touching it with a 10' pole ;)
 
After updating to a newer version of C2C with SVN the tech diffusion is now shown as you specified it. Also the parameters seem somewhat more reasonable (the modifier of TECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_MODIFIER went down from 700 to 110)
 
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