Hydro said:
Then again you were considering Antigrav as different from Gravity Control. Thus I think naming the Galactic Units as Antigrav a bit confusing.
Actually, that's correct that it should be named differently at this point. I realize we've had a LOT of potentially confusing discussion on this stuff so let me clarify intent:
The current Anti-Grav ships should indeed be renamed to Gravity Drive ships. They are intended to be the last ships that can scarcely be called naval but represent a stage where navies transition into spacecraft with land, sea, and near-space operating ranges. By near-space I mean they CAN travel between planets in a solar system but they would not be able, without being transported, to leave the solar system - simply too slow for that as all energy systems are directed towards weaponry and Gravity Drive (which is not a good solution for deep space travel).
If we want a ship layer based on Anti-Grav it's going to take a VERY significant reworking of the end of the transhuman era/beginning of the Galactic era. I can see this happening but as I've said before, it would be good to keep this project somewhat localized to its intentions.
Furthermore there really aren't actually all that many techs (despite the length of time between them according to the x layers) between the Droid layer and the Gravity drive layer as it is - the distance is not much greater between upgrades here than what you'd have between any other staged layers because the tech tree goes really thin at that point.
At the moment, the Anti-Grav tech is right in and on top of what would be the era for the Droid ships. Furthermore, it may not be a totally bad thing to leave it alone. I can see reasons why mere Anti-Grav drives would not so easily enable naval vessels to operate with equal effect both above and below the water.
There's simply too many engineering hurdles (energy allocation limits cutting too much into weapon systems and pressure tolerance considerations in design for space vs deep sea travel for a few examples) to make it worth making a machine try to accomplish both roles of combat over the waves and combat under the waves but both the Navies and the Hovering vehicles above may well still interact.
At this stage, Hover (Anti-grav) vehicles coming from land pretty much control the surface war but these Droid navies submerge and take up the whole of the ocean as their battleground. Hover vehicles operating on the surface of the ocean would probably not be very good at fending off an attack from below from the Droid ships unless hovering VERY far above the surface. These Navies are huge and lethal because they ARE so weapon systems dedicated. Anti-grav vessels that can match them in a fight would be few because the energy demands of the Anti-grav systems are so great.
At the Gravity Drive those issues no longer matter and you have a ship that moves equally as effectively under and over the water and even into space - possibly even through rock though this would not be advised if you care at all about the planet's integrity.
Gravity Drive ships would be capable of defending and attacking cities so at this stage they'll be blending in with land units and that will be an interesting deck to shuffle once the land unit upgrades are extrapolated out that far. I'd probably keep them from being able to TAKE cities so some land units would still be necessary...
Hydro said:
I said:
Anti-Grav
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_LASER
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_PLASMA
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_RAPID_RAILGUN
These seem maybe a bit to primitive for the units.
At this stage, primitive may not mean ineffective. There are so many weapon systems being designed at this point that it becomes a situation where one defense counters one weapon but leaves you open to another etc... These may precede by quite a bit but they still have their uses. They'd be about as 'outdated' as a knife is when handguns are available but you can see how at times a knife is still more useful than a handgun so you could see cause to pack both.
I envision laser systems as being unparalleled in targeting extremely large numbers of opponents no smaller than a frog. Thus, advanced laser systems by this time have become devastating anti-personnel weapons that can wipe out a battalion of foot soldiers in a fraction of a second without causing any damage to surrounding terrain.
Plasma: The heat of the sun will melt just about any material as all materials are made from the stuff that forms when plasma cools. No solid at all can stand up to these temperatures. But it cools quickly as it leaves the weapon, particularly in space where it not only cools but scatters in a mad attempt to diffuse. Nevertheless, a close, unshielded vessel can have a hole melted into it by a good Plasma weapon shot no matter how advanced we're talking here. Plasma may even be capable of ignoring the defenses of either a Phased or 4D state. Some shielding can work well against it but other shielding types are completely ineffective. So despite it's extremely short range effectiveness, the weapon system is always packed along so as to be able to deliver the strike it's good at when the opportunity arises.
Rapid Railgun: Some shield systems are really only good at deflecting energy attacks. The good old kinetic damage standby still comes in handy sometimes. Hulls are almost immune to it by this point and can even strengthen if struck BUT not all weapon systems, sensors and so on, are protected by the shell (at least when combat breaks out and systems are exposed) so can still be hurt by these 'archaic' weapons of brute physical force.
Hydro said:
I said:
Quote:
Anti-Grav
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_DISINTIGRATION
UNITCOMBAT_SHIELD_ATTOMETER
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_ANTIMATTER
These seem a bit too advanced for the units.
Though its hard to say. We may want to add more stages in the galactic era. Thus placing the Ant-Grav at Early Galactic and then having Disintegration, Antimater and 4D stages after that.
Take a look at the late game tech tree as it stands and imagine the 3 techs I've suggested fitting in where suggested and then take a look at the tech prereqs established for this line of ships and you'll see why they have limited access to these new weapon systems. The Gravity Drive itself is invented within the same cluster as these weapons are, which matches the designs of the tech access patterns of previous naval layers.
Another thing you may note is that with every stage of Navy after the ultra-modern (and even some from that layer) you'll see that a hallmark of each new stage is that new weapon, stealth, and defense systems have opened up that justify the new naval layer entirely. With the current tech tree, from Droid ships to Gravity Drive ships you have no other new weapon systems to enable with what's currently been envisioned.
So sure, if the section between the end of the Transhuman and the middle Galactic era cluster is FILLED with new tech ideas, I'd be very happy to rework the later ship design concepts. For now I'm working with as close to the existing tech tree model as I've got. Simply trying to envision how these last weapon systems work, what works against them and so on is quite interesting really.
Just keep in mind this late game navy is a patch to keep the game relevant at that stage until we do get into much deeper late game design. Reworking to match new needs is something we'll never be able to avoid.
Also, please don't feel like I'm just trying to dig in the heels here... I want you to understand the thought that's been put into this and as you get where I'm coming with things, if you agree or disagree (but more importantly why) is important for us to share because you may see things I don't, or in a way I don't. I do respect your opinions and I get how it feels like we're making a quantum leap from the Droids to the Gravity Drive ships so I'm hoping that by fully explaining WHY on some of these determinations it will help you understand the insight I gained from analyzing the future tech paths. I was surprised by some of the progressions as they came together as well.
I think another layer between the Droid and Gravity Drive ships would be appropriate but it's going to take a lot of tech work to do it. I don't think we're ready to make that many new techs for now. I suggest we go forward with the navy plans here and then as we work out details regarding the land units up to this stage we may find some unexpected concepts that will help us to bridge this divide in the naval tree - metahumanism for example has not been well developed yet and oh do I intend to see that happen! Might be the thing that really obsoletes the Droid Navies is not machine based at all.
This limits how big a payload can be. Denser fuel is a huge advantage here. Antimatter has an extremely high energy content per mass, which means your spacecraft that needed 100 tons of fuel to lift of could probably be lifted with 1 µg Antimatter. This makes your craft almost 100 lighter! And this is what makes antimatter as propellant for spacecraft so interesting. And you can throttle electric engines so you can accelerate at physiologic levels. The biggest problem for human spaceflight is more the high gamma radiation from antimatter annihilation, so strong shielding is required.
