Range and sources of education property

I would suggest early tech restrictions for the negative and positive education effects as it is with crime. Lack of education isn't as big a problem relatively for a prehistoric tribe that has no education to offer as it would be in a modern city that do. Highly educated prehistoric societies doesn't really make sense either.

Oral tradition unlocks the first building, cultural heritage the second; the rest is unlocked at sedentary lifestyle.
 
It is more of a problem actually Toffer90 as you have only one city with just a little science, between 8 and 12 or so, and having that reduced by up to 1+1+2+2 and -20% is devastating, while when you have a lot of cities producing good science values and a single new city (or a couple) gets minus Education buildings and loses it's in comparison negligible science output it is not at all bad.

Cheers
 
@BG: Yeah but my suggestion already address that problem, but a fair comparison would consider the education level of the empire as a whole, and that logic should make it clear that a modern nation that doesn't offer any education strives more to make discoveries in quantum physics than a tribe, whose shaman isn't telling strange stories, strives to figure out how to create fire. Thats why education should play a bigger role the further the game proceeds; hence my suggestion to have education effects unlock by techs.

Example:
1. effect at "Oral Tradition", 2. effect at "Sedentary Lifestyle", 3. effect at "Writing" and the 4. effect at "Education".
 
That is all good and I like that, having various Education levels unlocked by techs, and none from the start, not until Education actually becomes a "thing".

Cheers
 
I would be open to a compromise on this where each level of education impact unlocks at each era. But I wholeheartedly disagree that education is not a thing in the prehistoric. The variation of effectiveness of passing information and innovations between individuals in the tribe during this era made for dramatically differing development courses for various groups of human populations, to the point that a whole advanced civilization sprouted up where the rest of the world was still hunting and gathering. As DH has pointed out, loss of information and constant setbacks in discoveries were the norm during the prehistoric era, much of which was due to the need to survive superseding the need to establish improved ways to maintain information generation after generation. Not having writing was a massive hindrance as oral traditions can be deeply flawed in handing down info. Imagine what it would be like to not have language even. Or have a very basic language at least. Someone talked about negative education being book burnings and so on but when you don't have books to burn, is that then a scenario that would produce negative education? The situation there, imo, is much like the negative disease factor we start the game with - dismal.
 
@TB:
I don't disagree but I still have to defend the game balance. You don't start with all the diseases present in your 50 person tribe, they unlock with time even if disease property is dismal, don't they?
 
As for the book burning that was in part to show that in Prehistory, even BEFORE the stories, there was nothing to burn, destroy, and so on. All "education" was via experience, not handed over to others except by mimicking what the rest of the tribe were doing. Not having any positive or negative Education buildings (still having the negative Education though) until at least language is invented and very likely not until Oral Tradition is researched, just seems more natural to me.

Cheers
 
When pests and disease were added there was much discussion about when they should start to have an affect in game. The discussion is about improving the game play so as to slowly introduce effects that are more important in the later parts of the game.

In the early part of the game disease, pests and education should not be playing a big part. It was a time of massive growth in innovation and population as more and more food became available with the end of the ice-age.

I agree with BG that education is not a big deal when all there is to know is what is edible. Later there is how to make fire and later still how to make tools. My points of interest on the early education "quantity" tree would be something like
before Oral Tradition - Nothing! There is nothing more to learn than what you would learn at your parents knee, ie what is edible or not. Without parents or the like you would die anyway. Everything you need to know you have by the time you are 5.

Oral Tradition - This is where the culture of the tribe begins to accumulate - stories need to be remembered and passed on

Tool Making - There are things now that require skill and attention to learn.

Tribalism - There is much needed to keep the tribes together with a common background so that they do not become a different nation.

Sedentary Lifestyle - Larger amount of knowledge needs to be passed on.

Writing - Knowledge can now be stored...​
 
Literature, Education, and Scientific Method are also good points for unlocking additional Education levels and would bring the total to 8, just need to find 2 more spots where the last 2 would fit.

Cheers
 
Can we at least compromise to allow the first level of negative and positive education possible immediately? Again... game balance. One of the things that will make a tougher game setting actually harder is the deficit that a player would struggle with early on that the AI won't. There's also other balance factors like buildings that can provide needed education, that would then become meaningless if we don't at least have one level available right away. And one level isn't going to make that much of a difference... a fair drag or boon for that era.

So that will leave us with only one more tech to define the last level with. There's a number of education related techs in the early transhuman that may apply.

However, looking closer at DH's proposal, I think there might be a few too many stages in the prehistoric. Oral Tradition, Sedentary Lifestyle and Writing all strike me as right but the rest of those slots I think we should push out farther beyond Scientific Method. Lvl 10 would seem appropriate at Technological Singularity. I'm sure we can find enough between there to fill the rest out.
 
Since I am having no difficulties with education any suggestions I make are just ideas to promote discussion leading towards a solution.
 
One from start can be ok, but could the first negative Education not have a triple effect, as in -1:science:, -5%:commerce:, AND -5%:science:?
In reality each is -1 to :science: as the first counted, Commerce, drops it a fraction under a whole number so a whole number is removed, then the -5% Science also drops it under a fraction and removes a whole point, and then the -1 finishes the job off.
This effect makes it between a -20% (if from 15 tech/turn) and 30% (if at 10 tech/turn) drop and not the -5%-5%-1.

Cheers
 
Aren't there buildings and civics one quickly reaches that compensate those % losses? Without these not-so-innocent penalties hovering overhead, that often means your +10% research from the first language civic, for example, is actually meaningless for quite a while right? So does this not then, inadvertently, give good cause to reach for that 10% research bonus early on?

I don't recall if there's anything that influences the commerce in the same manner though...

There's such a smooth transition between one edu level to another that, as OCD as I am, I would struggle with mentally accepting such an asymmetric move to undermine the first stage of education.
 
No buildings until Elder's Hut, but the Language Civic, available at Language, gives +5%:science:, and the Oral Tradition Civic gives another 10%.
What Dancing said though still goes, the PreHistory is supposed to be a period of blossoming civilizations with scientific innovations and population booms.

Getting a little behind does not matter, but getting too far behind early on can spell doom.
This because once anyone reaches any other era the difference in Science output is mainly dependent on the amount of science producing cities a nation has and the difference might be between taking 30 turns to research or 20 turns to research, or going 10 turns behind on average per technology.
This is a lot less than in PreHistory. Now I only compare right now with the Eternal because it is possible that other speeds do not have the same problem. On a large map on a higher difficulty on Eternal the first few (6) technologies might take 40+ turns in average, turns the AI with getting a bunch of early techs free from start (including enough to overcome negative Education right from the beginning by being able to go Oral Tradition Civic). By setting these techs back even more due to negative Education to 70+ turns (was more with 2 negative buildings) means 30 turns longer per tech, or 180 MORE turns, to reach the point where the AI started off. In effect giving the AI 400+turns to get established before the player can even start growing.

So, for OCD reasons it not looking good with a less "smooth transition" might break that part of the game for some players.

Might I suggest starting with the first negative only reducing 5% :science:, in effect removing the bonus for Language Civic.
The second having that and adding -1:science:.
The third having both of those and adding the -5%:commerce:.
The rest then maybe increasing in values to keep a smooth transition.

Cheers
 
Getting a little behind does not matter, but getting too far behind early on can spell doom.
You understand that your whole premise is predicated on the game balance factors under Nightmare/Deity right? You're basically arguing that we should make it more possible to win the game under a condition that is by it's very nature goaled to become absolutely impossible.
 
*smile* No, but less impossible, though it is mainly in Eternal and the largest size map it happens even on non-maxed out difficulty, I tried and got the same result on an Emperor setting, though still Nightmare.

Cheers
 
I think the education system works very well.

To be honest I am not a huge fan - it really just replicates a lot of the Science factors and strategy.

But as a system it does what it is supposed to and it does add a challenge
 
*smile* No, but less impossible, though it is mainly in Eternal and the largest size map it happens even on non-maxed out difficulty, I tried and got the same result on an Emperor setting, though still Nightmare.

Cheers

Nightmare emperor is pretty much one level above normal deity. And the Education penalties are still more severe there than the are on normal Deity as a result.

I'll try things with the compromise suggested and we can look at how it plays from there.
 
Lvl 1: Available immediately.
Lvl 2: Oral Tradition
Lvl 3: Sedentary Lifestyle
Lvl 4: Specialization
Lvl 5: Literature
Lvl 6: Education
Lvl 7: Compulsory Education
Lvl 8: Knowledge Management
Lvl 9: Human-Machine Interface
Lvl 10: Technological Singularity
 
Updating and carrying on with my old save again, thanks for both the crash guard and the Education compromise.

Cheers
 
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