Pre-v36 Bugfix List

Of course you can assume the Cooper is killed in battle. But this could be "simulated" in game by losing the Cooper's Hut building.

I think your argument about "detaining him for questioning regarding his strange unheard of profession" is quite far fetched. You probably wouldn't even know what everybody is doing in your new city.

After thinking about it, it would be weird to still have access to Barrels then. Probably not even the taxes, making the building basically obsolete. For Banking it's even a more valid reason since it would kinda effect your whole nation.

But then again, would you ban every citizen from using the bank? They are used to it, it's part of their every day's life and the bank would give you some of their imcome as taxes...

Or take Parks. Would you destroy them as "witchcraft" just you don't have the technology to build them? Or Skyscrapers? You can't build them, but you won't put them down. Or urge people not to use them...

The whole technology from conquer is strange. You invade a city and find a percentage of a single tech. why only from one tech? why only right after conquering? Why wouldn't you get extra knowledge about tanks, horses, airplains, guns.... when you fight them on the battlefield?

I think the best solution would be an increased tech diffuser if you hold one or more cities of your enemy. Even more if the city is now friendly (no :mad:) towards you.
 
I think we have problem with wheat resource model, not with mangrove. Please check Civ BTS wheat model and wheat model from C2C.

Take the mangrove out and all the resources display OK. Put the mangrove back in and sometimes they display fine and sometimes (most often) they don't.
 
Take the mangrove out and all the resources display OK. Put the mangrove back in and sometimes they display fine and sometimes (most often) they don't.

Hmm I tried blank wheat resource without mangrove at all and still looks like swamp.
 
If there is mangrove anywhere on the map the problem occurs. When I said remove mangrove, I meant the feature from the XML files so it does not appear anywhere on the map. Actually just turning its placement off in the python fixes the problem I think.
 
Ok here is my new mangrove from jungle with slightly darker texture, less trees and water . I made screenshot with different resources and terrain.

http://imgur.com/6LNDDy3
 
4. Neanderthal Warrior needs to be made bAlwaysHostile

What's this do?

12. Remove the replacement of the Dream Simulation Center and the Dream Propaganda by the Dream Visualizer.

I guess it might work. However I think one was an alt-timeline building and one was a normal timeline building.

13. Please check the Capuchin Crypt Wonder as it can never be built. It needs Bones but they aren´t available anymore at that time. Either prolong the availability of Bones or remove the requirement.

Should the Bone Worker's Hut go obsolete later or even not at all?

17. Composite Bowmen no longer update to Bellybow or early crossbow. Last night, prior to 8191 update, my composite would upgrade to Belly. I just got early crossbow after the update.

Is this intentional that Composite can't upgrade to either belly or early crossbow now?(at least figure out if this is or is not intentional and what's going on here.)

It goes;

Archer -> Bellybowman -> Light Crossbowman -> Crossbowman -> Heavy Crossbowman -> Musketman

OR

Archer -> Composite Bowman -> Longbowman -> Arquebusier -> Musketman

This order is intended.
 
Only the Dream Visualizer is non-alt-timeline IIRC.

And I don't think the Boneworker's Hut should produce Bones at all. Hunter Camps etc should produce Bones, the Boneworker's Hut should require them instead and give you :gold: and :culture: .
 
8. The error is that Great Commanders in a foreign city have missions available that relate to the other civ rather than yours. The example [may have been] it could abolish slavery, which I wasn't running.

It makes no difference what kind of Great Person this is, none of them should be able to a. change another civ's worldviews; or b. abolish a worldview that has already been abolished.

There was a similar problem in my report with a captive, ie. he could be settled as a slave in the foreign city. So the problem is much wider in scope than the Great Commander, and does not require anything so subtle as distinguishing between the GG and GC, since neither of them should have the missions available in a foreign city. Rather it is the distinguishing between "friendly" and "domestic" cities that seems to be the problem.

32. While you're on this, I don't think religious techs should be of any trade value, but the AI is sometimes happy to trade for them as if they were actual useful techs.
 
Perhaps the Capuchin Crypt Wonder should require the soon to be available Capuchin Myth or Cage.

8. The error is that Great Commanders in a foreign city have missions available that relate to the other civ rather than yours. The example [may have been] it could abolish slavery, which I wasn't running.

It makes no difference what kind of Great Person this is, none of them should be able to a. change another civ's worldviews; or b. abolish a worldview that has already been abolished.

There was a similar problem in my report with a captive, ie. he could be settled as a slave in the foreign city. So the problem is much wider in scope than the Great Commander, and does not require anything so subtle as distinguishing between the GG and GC, since neither of them should have the missions available in a foreign city. Rather it is the distinguishing between "friendly" and "domestic" cities that seems to be the problem.

That was fixed for all units except the Great Commander or it should have been. The XML to stop it is in place. The Great Commander is not a unit, it is a special case of the Great General which means that when it was made the mission stuff was not so there was something missed.

32. While you're on this, I don't think religious techs should be of any trade value, but the AI is sometimes happy to trade for them as if they were actual useful techs.

People are supposed to post a save from before the AI offers for the Religion tech so that the dll programmers can figure out what is happening. Some Religion techs still lead to other techs which means that they do have value.

A "simple" solution would be to set the cost of the tech to one or zero once someone discovers it. However "simple" solutions never are.
 
Of course you can assume the Cooper is killed in battle. But this could be "simulated" in game by losing the Cooper's Hut building.
Don't think I haven't ruled this out as an appropriate method to resolve this factor but I hesitate on this due to some things you say after this...

I think your argument about "detaining him for questioning regarding his strange unheard of profession" is quite far fetched. You probably wouldn't even know what everybody is doing in your new city.
Perhaps in the case of a cooper, sure, but have you read how we in the States handled the Nazi scientists after the war? It was a supposition and a possible way to view some of what may happen. I know it doesn't really cover every situation at all.

After thinking about it, it would be weird to still have access to Barrels then. Probably not even the taxes, making the building basically obsolete. For Banking it's even a more valid reason since it would kinda effect your whole nation.
Exactly... and universities and many other buildings. The problem is that, as you say, some of the people would still have the knowledge in the newly conquered population - which sorta conflicts with the established meaning of a nation having knowledge of a tech... it has basically come to mean that anyone in the nation has a working knowledge and has come to apply the technology. Which would then suggest, as I said earlier, that if we are to keep the buildings, and particularly if we keep them functional, that we must then assume that the nation has captured that technology outright, therefore all techs of an enemy are stolen as soon as you take one of their cities since some citizens there know the technology. This seems, however, from a GAME perspective, as being a horrible imbalance since all you'd have to do is go a conquering regularly and for the most part stop caring at all for research as you'll just steal it all as soon as you take the enemy city, which we all know a truly dedicated out-teched nation can often accomplish against a far more advanced foe, particularly if they target a smaller weaker less defensible city first (then call an end to the war as quickly as possible only to repeat the process later after strengthening yet further.)

But then again, would you ban every citizen from using the bank? They are used to it, it's part of their every day's life and the bank would give you some of their imcome as taxes...
No... the assumption would have to be that not enough people know how to OPERATE banking principles anymore to keep the bank functioning. It's not about destroying the building but about losing the ability to keep it operational.

Or take Parks. Would you destroy them as "witchcraft" just you don't have the technology to build them? Or Skyscrapers? You can't build them, but you won't put them down. Or urge people not to use them...
Parks is certainly a very odd one considering once its in place it's hard to imagine someone not knowing how to benefit from it. On the other hand, not knowing how to build another one makes sense so the current mechanism makes a lot of sense for something like a park. A skyscraper follows similar lines of thinking though it might not be put to the USE that the civilization that built it intended for it.

So yeah, admittedly it's a grey zone from many angles and almost begs for each building to have its own definition as to how it reacts to this sort of situation which becomes an overengineered nightmare very quickly to imagine that project.

Therefore, I'm quite happy to leave it be. It's not perfect, imo, but there really isn't a perfect answer without it being overly complexified for very little real benefit in the game.

The whole technology from conquer is strange. You invade a city and find a percentage of a single tech. why only from one tech? why only right after conquering? Why wouldn't you get extra knowledge about tanks, horses, airplains, guns.... when you fight them on the battlefield?
Agreed and there was some discussion about a mechanism being designed to at least enable nations to develop strategies to combat unit types beyond their own tech level once encountered. For the most part this is where game model has little choice but to conflict with reality and would take a much much much deeper dynamic from the floor up to improve much on.


I think the best solution would be an increased tech diffuser if you hold one or more cities of your enemy. Even more if the city is now friendly (no :mad:) towards you.
Not a bad idea at all BUT it would be a somewhat involved project from a programming perspective... certainly not a bugfix nor a project that would take priority over many I yearn to get to developing asap. But the idea certainly has merit... I'll give it that!

4. Neanderthal Warrior needs to be made bAlwaysHostile
What's this do?
It will fix it. It's currently a HN unit and can enter enemy territory (according to SO's vision of the unit the fact that its a Neander creates a quick assumption from the enemy that it has nothing to do with fulfilling human interests) but without bAlwaysHostile set to true it cannot also attack the opponent units. I assume it's got this setting incorrect at the moment because we're getting reports that it isn't able to attack opponent units.

Hydro said:
12. Remove the replacement of the Dream Simulation Center and the Dream Propaganda by the Dream Visualizer.
I guess it might work. However I think one was an alt-timeline building and one was a normal timeline building.
This is on my plate as it seems to not be getting addressed by anyone else. I would much prefer to have someone else figure out the best plan of action on this. This suggestion was Snofru's and without looking much deeper into it myself it sounded reasonable.

So can you or Mouse handle this one?


Hydro said:
13. Please check the Capuchin Crypt Wonder as it can never be built. It needs Bones but they aren´t available anymore at that time. Either prolong the availability of Bones or remove the requirement.

Should the Bone Worker's Hut go obsolete later or even not at all?
Mouse said:
And I don't think the Boneworker's Hut should produce Bones at all. Hunter Camps etc should produce Bones, the Boneworker's Hut should require them instead and give you and .
I love this last suggestion here. Makes tons of sense... the bones are already there - the boneworker hut only does something to make them more useful.

Also... since I've got your attention... the tools issue is huge now. Do we have a building that can generate this manufactured resource? Can we get one if we don't have one currently? What was the original plan here? I ended up implementing them as a prerequisite for some important new units and come to find out that nothing puts them in the game! They appear to fit with a toolset progression so it would be best, I think, to address this by getting a source in the game rather than removing the prereqs in use.

H said:
It goes;

Archer -> Bellybowman -> Light Crossbowman -> Crossbowman -> Heavy Crossbowman -> Musketman

OR

Archer -> Composite Bowman -> Longbowman -> Arquebusier -> Musketman

This order is intended.
Thank you. Issue resolved. This question a while back never got an answer and I didn't know the answer myself so I was planning to look into it.

Now maybe Joe can mention why he brought it up in the first place since it seemed to be a note of frustration. Did this get changed and does this disturb anyone for any reason?


8. The error is that Great Commanders in a foreign city have missions available that relate to the other civ rather than yours. The example [may have been] it could abolish slavery, which I wasn't running.

It makes no difference what kind of Great Person this is, none of them should be able to a. change another civ's worldviews; or b. abolish a worldview that has already been abolished.

There was a similar problem in my report with a captive, ie. he could be settled as a slave in the foreign city. So the problem is much wider in scope than the Great Commander, and does not require anything so subtle as distinguishing between the GG and GC, since neither of them should have the missions available in a foreign city. Rather it is the distinguishing between "friendly" and "domestic" cities that seems to be the problem.
I believe DH resolved the problem as you're reporting it and found some new issues with the Great General specifically as he explains above.

32. While you're on this, I don't think religious techs should be of any trade value, but the AI is sometimes happy to trade for them as if they were actual useful techs.
Ah... yeah, that's been mentioned before in probably less central locations than the SVN bug thread where the majority of these reports were compiled from. Tech valuations are complicated but I may be able to find some peace of mind to add some further consideration here.

Perhaps the Capuchin Crypt Wonder should require the soon to be available Capuchin Myth or Cage.
If you have a good plan to address that flaw then I'll gladly leave it to you.

A "simple" solution would be to set the cost of the tech to one or zero once someone discovers it. However "simple" solutions never are.
Yeah, something like that... I'll really have to figure out where it's getting any value at all once the religion is gone.
 
I have a fix for
- seed camp gets forest
- brown bear excessive spawns (at last)

The tools stuff was stopped because they were going to be equipment which we don't have yet. I'll look and see what can be done.

If no one else is doing it or objects I think I'll change the Slaughter House to provide bones as well as raw meat since that is where carcass are processed. Then make Bone Worker require Bone not provide it.
 
I believe DH resolved the problem as you're reporting it and found some new issues with the Great General specifically as he explains above.

The report I'm referring to (ie. regarding the captive) was encountered on assets from long after the supposed fix was in place, however I will experiment further and get back to you.

If no one else is doing it or objects I think I'll change the Slaughter House to provide bones as well as raw meat since that is where carcass are processed. Then make Bone Worker require Bone not provide it.

FWIW I think the Slaughterhouse is the best building to provide the Bone resource, although I don't disagree with hunting camps as an alternate source. Quite correct also that the bone worker require bone rather than providing it.
 
Exactly... and universities and many other buildings. The problem is that, as you say, some of the people would still have the knowledge in the newly conquered population - which sorta conflicts with the established meaning of a nation having knowledge of a tech... it has basically come to mean that anyone in the nation has a working knowledge and has come to apply the technology. Which would then suggest, as I said earlier, that if we are to keep the buildings, and particularly if we keep them functional, that we must then assume that the nation has captured that technology outright, therefore all techs of an enemy are stolen as soon as you take one of their cities since some citizens there know the technology. This seems, however, from a GAME perspective, as being a horrible imbalance since all you'd have to do is go a conquering regularly and for the most part stop caring at all for research as you'll just steal it all as soon as you take the enemy city, which we all know a truly dedicated out-teched nation can often accomplish against a far more advanced foe, particularly if they target a smaller weaker less defensible city first (then call an end to the war as quickly as possible only to repeat the process later after strengthening yet further.)

I understand your point but I still think that there is a difference between letting people life their every days life and get all techs from them. I was picturing more an ancient or medieval city. Lets say you conquered a huge city during the 14th century in europe. There are millions of people, countless small streets and millions of buildings as well. Do you really think you will see it if someone is doing astronomy stuff etc?


No... the assumption would have to be that not enough people know how to OPERATE banking principles anymore to keep the bank functioning. It's not about destroying the building but about losing the ability to keep it operational.


Whys that? If you conquer a city, the vast majority of them are still the original inhabitants. It's not that there will be instantly millions of your people there.

Parks is certainly a very odd one considering once its in place it's hard to imagine someone not knowing how to benefit from it. On the other hand, not knowing how to build another one makes sense so the current mechanism makes a lot of sense for something like a park. A skyscraper follows similar lines of thinking though it might not be put to the USE that the civilization that built it intended for it.

So yeah, admittedly it's a grey zone from many angles and almost begs for each building to have its own definition as to how it reacts to this sort of situation which becomes an overengineered nightmare very quickly to imagine that project.

Therefore, I'm quite happy to leave it be. It's not perfect, imo, but there really isn't a perfect answer without it being overly complexified for very little real benefit in the game.

Yeah... it's all blurry and there are good reasons for either way... We could increase chance of destruction for certain "questionable" buildings, simulating the operator killed or stopped working. But I'd rather prefer having some buildings not working for a while instead of have them to rebuild - even though I think the "stop working" way is very artificial. It's like: "Ok Mr. Cooper. We finally know how to make barrels, now we allow you to work again."

Agreed and there was some discussion about a mechanism being designed to at least enable nations to develop strategies to combat unit types beyond their own tech level once encountered. For the most part this is where game model has little choice but to conflict with reality and would take a much much much deeper dynamic from the floor up to improve much on.


Not a bad idea at all BUT it would be a somewhat involved project from a programming perspective... certainly not a bugfix nor a project that would take priority over many I yearn to get to developing asap. But the idea certainly has merit... I'll give it that!

That would be really cool!


This is on my plate as it seems to not be getting addressed by anyone else. I would much prefer to have someone else figure out the best plan of action on this. This suggestion was Snofru's and without looking much deeper into it myself it sounded reasonable.

So can you or Mouse handle this one?

Rather not... last week here in the lab and I have to gather all data together, clean up my bench etc.... :(


Also... since I've got your attention... the tools issue is huge now. Do we have a building that can generate this manufactured resource? Can we get one if we don't have one currently? What was the original plan here? I ended up implementing them as a prerequisite for some important new units and come to find out that nothing puts them in the game! They appear to fit with a toolset progression so it would be best, I think, to address this by getting a source in the game rather than removing the prereqs in use.

I think Tools could be produced by a Toolmaker's Workshop, requireing Iron Wares and Wood. Somewhere around Guilds maybe?


What Bones are "Bones" in C2C? Capucin Crypt are human bones, but I'm not sure if a Boneworker would work with human bones as well... But I think having two resources - Human Bones and Animal Bones - would be way to much detail...
 
@T-Bird out of boredom

Actually I agree with Faustmouse :D

You may need sophisticated technology to build machines, but you don't need an engineer to operate them. I may not know how to make a coffee machine, but I certainly know how to operate one. So if I capture a coffee shop with all the machines intact, it does not make me smarter by gaining the technology to manufacture new coffee machines. But I definitely can make use of existing machines to brew coffee.

Similarly, if I capture an Armory with weapons inside, I may not have gunpowder knowledge to make new weapons, but any idiot can shoot with the existing guns.
 
@T-Bird out of boredom

Actually I agree with Faustmouse :D

You may need sophisticated technology to build machines, but you don't need an engineer to operate them. I may not know how to make a coffee machine, but I certainly know how to operate one. So if I capture a coffee shop with all the machines intact, it does not make me smarter by gaining the technology to manufacture new coffee machines. But I definitely can make use of existing machines to brew coffee.

Similarly, if I capture an Armory with weapons inside, I may not have gunpowder knowledge to make new weapons, but any idiot can shoot with the existing guns.


You gain at least some insight how those coffee machines are constructed and how they work. The same goes with guns, a smart person could figure out how they work.

Maybe that is not much but it gives an advantage if you want to build your own coffee machines or guns and ammo or cars or whatever.
 
@T-Bird out of boredom

Actually I agree with Faustmouse :D

You may need sophisticated technology to build machines, but you don't need an engineer to operate them. I may not know how to make a coffee machine, but I certainly know how to operate one. So if I capture a coffee shop with all the machines intact, it does not make me smarter by gaining the technology to manufacture new coffee machines. But I definitely can make use of existing machines to brew coffee.

Similarly, if I capture an Armory with weapons inside, I may not have gunpowder knowledge to make new weapons, but any idiot can shoot with the existing guns.

But then again, if you operate a coffee machine you have/get at least basic understanding on how it works and how you COULD build one. Same with gunpowder weapons. If you never saw them before, you now know that you need to put bullets in them, that you hear an explosion and that they have a "pipe" where the bullet comes out. And your knowledge over these things will increase the longer you have them around. So increasing the tech diffusion would make perfectly sense.

Also, you both seem to make the mistake that it's YOU or YOUR PEOPLE who have to deal with the new city. Do you lose units when you move them in the city and then out again? Do your cities lose food/pop? Nope... None of your people actually move there right after capturing it, there are still people around who knows how to make coffee machines, and there will still be people around that wants coffee und therefore asks for a machine...
 
Also, you both seem to make the mistake that it's YOU or YOUR PEOPLE who have to deal with the new city. Do you lose units when you move them in the city and then out again? Do your cities lose food/pop? Nope... None of your people actually move there right after capturing it, there are still people around who knows how to make coffee machines, and there will still be people around that wants coffee und therefore asks for a machine...

You realized that I mentioned I agreed with you? :mischief:
Although I may not know how to construct a new coffee machine, the existing coffee shop should still be in operation since you do not need the necessary technology to continue operating them.

However, you do need the technology to build new machines, hence you cannot build new coffee shops.

@alberts
Yup, you definitely can learn something from the existing buildings, hence tiny bit of tech diffusion, but not the full tech t-bird was suggesting.
 
You realized that I mentioned I agreed with you? :mischief:
Although I may not know how to construct a new coffee machine, the existing coffee shop should still be in operation since you do not need the necessary technology to continue operating them.

However, you do need the technology to build new machines, hence you cannot build new coffee shops.

@alberts
Yup, you definitely can learn something from the existing buildings, hence tiny bit of tech diffusion, but not the full tech t-bird was suggesting.

Of course I did, but this is not about "winning an argument", it's looking at the pros and contras and then find the best solution. I'm really on the fence with that; some buildings should be closed down since the technology isn't widespread, some should not be. IMO, the majority of buildings WILL continue to work, for the the coffee machine reasons. Having these building still working doesn't mean you HAVE the technology, thus you can't build them everywhere. But you certainly have a better position in figuring out the technology behind that when you have these buildings around you.
Platyping, how hard would it be to increase Tech Diffusion if you have a city of your more advanced enemy?
 
The tools stuff was stopped because they were going to be equipment which we don't have yet. I'll look and see what can be done.

If no one else is doing it or objects I think I'll change the Slaughter House to provide bones as well as raw meat since that is where carcass are processed. Then make Bone Worker require Bone not provide it.

Good call on these. Thanks for fixing them.

However I think the bone workers hut should be Bone OR Ivory rather than Bone AND (Carcass OR Pelt OR Ivory).

I will go fix.
 
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