Pre-v36 Bugfix List

JosEPh_II · Feb 10, 2015

From the Caveman2Cosmos Config file:

Code:

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]

# Change the value to true if technology should be handed completely over from
# the conquered city to their new owners.
# Default value is False
Complete Technology Discovery = False

# Increase or decrease the value to change the number of or part of 
# technologies conquered cities will hand over to their new owners.
# Default value is 1
Technology Transfer Count = 1

# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False

# Change the value to true if the conquering civilization can receive 
# technology without the appropriate prerequisites or ignore their civilization
# technology restrictions.
# Default value is False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False

# Change the value to false if full technology transfer should be allowed. By 
# setting the value to true this will force players to spend at least one turn
# researching pillaged technology.
# Default value is True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer 
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city 
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 5

These values need reviewed. And impo most need changed.

We don't necessarily need tech diffusion to achieve what we've been discussing. This would save on coding And the possibility of more Bugs and Code manipulation.

JosEPh

KFDirector · Feb 10, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Perhaps the Capuchin Crypt Wonder should require the soon to be available Capuchin Myth or Cage.

Why should that be the case? The monkeys were named after the religious order, not vice versa, and the historical crypt was built without a single reference to any new world primates. And for that matter, while the crypt is filled with bones, they're entirely human bones, while the Bones resource is in-game derived from only animal sources.

Also, it should be possible to somehow get access to Lard before Commercial Whaling, since buildings that depend on it are available much earlier - and at least one, the Lichen Burner, goes obsolete a full era earlier! Butchery or Slaughterhouse seems like a logical place to slide in a

Code:

			<ExtraFreeBonuses>
				<ExtraFreeBonus>
				<FreeBonus>BONUS_LARD</FreeBonus>
				<iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
				</ExtraFreeBonus>
			</ExtraFreeBonuses>

.

Dancing Hoskuld · Feb 10, 2015

KFDirector said:
Why should that be the case? The monkeys were named after the religious order, not vice versa, and the historical crypt was built without a single reference to any new world primates. And for that matter, while the crypt is filled with bones, they're entirely human bones, while the Bones resource is in-game derived from only animal sources.

I needed sleep at the time.

Graveyard, Cremation, Mummification and embalming should disable the wonder. Cave Burial and other burials that separate the bones out should enable it. This is yet another reason that we need a Burial Practice civic.

KFDirector said:
Also, it should be possible to somehow get access to Lard before Commercial Whaling, since buildings that depend on it are available much earlier - and at least one, the Lichen Burner, goes obsolete a full era earlier! Butchery or Slaughterhouse seems like a logical place to slide in a

Code:

<ExtraFreeBonuses> <ExtraFreeBonus> <FreeBonus>BONUS_LARD</FreeBonus> <iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses> </ExtraFreeBonus> </ExtraFreeBonuses>

Seems reasonable. The Butchery goes obsolete so probably the Slaughterhouse as it does not. Then the Rendering Plant at Commercial Whaling should provide Whale Oil or just Oil instead of lard.

@Hydro is this reasonable or have I missed something?

Yudishtira · Feb 10, 2015

Yudishtira said:
The report I'm referring to (ie. regarding the captive) was encountered on assets from long after the supposed fix was in place, however I will experiment further and get back to you.

For now I think you (TB) and DH are right and the problem with the captive is fixed.

Hydromancerx · Feb 10, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I needed sleep at the time.

Graveyard, Cremation, Mummification and embalming should disable the wonder. Cave Burial and other burials that separate the bones out should enable it. This is yet another reason that we need a Burial Practice civic.

Seems reasonable. The Butchery goes obsolete so probably the Slaughterhouse as it does not. Then the Rendering Plant at Commercial Whaling should provide Whale Oil or just Oil instead of lard.

@Hydro is this reasonable or have I missed something?

Whale Oil is made at the Whale Oil Maker at Oil Lamps tech. Which is an Ancient Era tech. Commercial Whaling is a Medieval Era tech.

Butchery should have given both Raw Meat and Lard. I will fix.

Thunderbrd · Feb 10, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I have a fix for
- seed camp gets forest
- brown bear excessive spawns (at last)

The tools stuff was stopped because they were going to be equipment which we don't have yet. I'll look and see what can be done.

If no one else is doing it or objects I think I'll change the Slaughter House to provide bones as well as raw meat since that is where carcass are processed. Then make Bone Worker require Bone not provide it.

My thanks to you and Hydro and all commenters adding ideas on these. My time is crunched yet further still here as I have just been promoted to sales department manager (this is a BIG upgrade for me! And with great power comes great responsibility of course... so I'll be able to offer yet less still - not that this will kill ALL my modding time - just that I can't let it stress me out y'know? I'll be having enough of that!)

Yudishtira said:
FWIW I think the Slaughterhouse is the best building to provide the Bone resource, although I don't disagree with hunting camps as an alternate source. Quite correct also that the bone worker require bone rather than providing it.

You guys are working this out wonderfully! Thanks!

JosEPh_II said:

From the Caveman2Cosmos Config file:

Code:

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]

# Change the value to true if technology should be handed completely over from
# the conquered city to their new owners.
# Default value is False
Complete Technology Discovery = False

# Increase or decrease the value to change the number of or part of 
# technologies conquered cities will hand over to their new owners.
# Default value is 1
Technology Transfer Count = 1

# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False

# Change the value to true if the conquering civilization can receive 
# technology without the appropriate prerequisites or ignore their civilization
# technology restrictions.
# Default value is False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False

# Change the value to false if full technology transfer should be allowed. By 
# setting the value to true this will force players to spend at least one turn
# researching pillaged technology.
# Default value is True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer 
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city 
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 5

These values need reviewed. And impo most need changed.

We don't necessarily need tech diffusion to achieve what we've been discussing. This would save on coding And the possibility of more Bugs and Code manipulation.

JosEPh

Great discussion all around on this subject and this is a pretty powerful set of pre-existing coding. Tell you what Joe... I'd love to hear your suggestions on how to tweak those values. Let's get some concept of what's going to feel more accurate here considering we already have a lot of potential controls to use that you've illuminated us on.

I wont deny this is a tricky area but we've all offered a lot of good perspectives and by keeping them all in mind I think we can strike the right numeric balances on this matter.

Faustmouse · Feb 10, 2015

I would go with this:

JosEPh_II said:

From the Caveman2Cosmos Config file:

Code:

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]

# Change the value to true if technology should be handed completely over from
# the conquered city to their new owners.
# Default value is False
Complete Technology Discovery = False

[COLOR="Red"]I think it should stay false. You will have some insights of a new tech, but you won't fully understand it just from looking at it. Unless you take in account torturing the population or something to unreveal their secrets.[/COLOR]

# Increase or decrease the value to change the number of or part of 
# technologies conquered cities will hand over to their new owners.
# Default value is 1
Technology Transfer Count = 1
[COLOR="red"]
I think this should be ALL techs. You will experience a lot of different techs when you conquer an advanced civilizations city. From a game perspective, this might be horrible overpowered, but we can use some values below to "fix" that.[/COLOR]

# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False
[COLOR="red"]
Random would make some sense here, also it will nerf the change above a little bit.[/COLOR]


# Change the value to true if the conquering civilization can receive 
# technology without the appropriate prerequisites or ignore their civilization
# technology restrictions.
# Default value is False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False

[COLOR="red"]I'd change this to true as well. You might argue that you need to understand physics in order to understand how airplanes fly, but if you see airplanes you see at least their general shape, how they land take off, how fast they are, what materials they are made of... [/COLOR]

# Change the value to false if full technology transfer should be allowed. By 
# setting the value to true this will force players to spend at least one turn
# researching pillaged technology.
# Default value is True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

[COLOR="red"]Hmm... It would make sense if this was false. Just from looking at an airplane or a gun doesn't give you full understanding on how to recreate them. It would also lower the "more then one tech" transfer from above. HOWEVER, you can also find an engineer in a newly captured city that didn't like his old king or that hopes for some benefits, so he tells you all about airplane construction...[/COLOR]

# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer 
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25

[COLOR="red"]With the above changes, this should be lowered to 10 or even 5%. You will get some very basic understanding of ALL new technologies used in this city.[/COLOR]

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city 
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 5

[COLOR="red"]So if I get this correctly, it currently would give you 25+Pop*5% to a new tech?
If so, I'd change that to 1 or 2 at most. First, it will balance the "all techs" issue from above a little more, [S]but also sometimes it doesn't really matter how many people live in a city.[/S]. I just realized that you have more infrastructure in bigger cities and that you are more likely to experience advanced technology in bigger cities then in smaller ones. Also it's more rewarding to capture big cities. So MAYBE this shoudl stay at 3 or 4 and therefore the basic percentage should be completely removed. 
Just keep in mind that cities in C2C can grow to pop 30+ easily. That means you basically get all techs from your enemy just by capturing a big city, which would be horrible![/COLOR]

Reisk@ · Feb 11, 2015

Surely the V35 unable to build factory-issues are fixed now ?

Thunderbrd · Feb 11, 2015

Reisk@ said:
Surely the V35 unable to build factory-issues are fixed now ?

I addressed that issue in depth a while back in the bug thread after you posted about it. I don't specifically recall what the resolution WAS but if I recall, after close evaluation, it was determined that it had been setup according to the intended design. I will try to find the reply to this later and repost it here if you haven't found it in the meantime.

Dancing Hoskuld · Feb 11, 2015

I have figured out why I could not build the Apothecary any more. It requires scrolls which go obsolete at Printing Press!

I could not build Healers because their building had been replaced by the Doctor's Office.

I could not build Surgeon because it requires Drugs which I did not have!

There for I went form being able to build Apothecaries to the ancient Wise Woman when I got Printing Press!

Sparth · Feb 11, 2015

@TB

Ok Mangrove was fixed
As for three planets map can you tell me what is wrong? I genereted this map and looks ok to me. I got all 3 "planets" (earth, moon and mars) and look everything ok. Without any alternative terrain.

Dancing Hoskuld · Feb 11, 2015

Sparth said:
@TB

Ok Mangrove was fixed
As for three planets map can you tell me what is wrong? I genereted this map and looks ok to me. I got all 3 "planets" (earth, moon and mars) and look everything ok. Without any alternative terrain.

It works if you use either alternate terrain. It often CTDs if you use the default terrain. Or maybe it was only with the old Mangrove :crazyeye:

Sparth · Feb 11, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
It works if you use either alternate terrain. It often CTDs if you use the default terrain. Or maybe it was only with the old Mangrove

Ok ill wait for more feedback from testers.

Faustmouse · Feb 11, 2015

Sparth said:
Ok ill wait for more feedback from testers.

I never changed the terrain , using the one you get when you just download the SVN and change nothing. When I open the WB in a normal game and try to put it certain lunar or martian terrains (can't remember which one excactly :/ ) the game CTD instantly. If I try to create the three planets map, it also ctd at 20-30% IIRC.

JosEPh_II · Feb 11, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
<snip>

Great discussion all around on this subject and this is a pretty powerful set of pre-existing coding. Tell you what Joe... I'd love to hear your suggestions on how to tweak those values. Let's get some concept of what's going to feel more accurate here considering we already have a lot of potential controls to use that you've illuminated us on.

I wont deny this is a tricky area but we've all offered a lot of good perspectives and by keeping them all in mind I think we can strike the right numeric balances on this matter.

1st I think this topic needs it's own thread. This will quickly clutter this thread. I will make a New thread and place my take on it there.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld · Feb 11, 2015

11. There is something wrong with the healer line. I am in the late Renaissance but the best healer I can build is the Wise Woman. I used to be able to build the Apothecary.

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I have figured out why I could not build the Apothecary any more. It requires scrolls which go obsolete at Printing Press!

I could not build Healers because their building had been replaced by the Doctor's Office.

I could not build Surgeon because it requires Drugs which I did not have!

There for I went form being able to build Apothecaries to the ancient Wise Woman when I got Printing Press!

Changing the Apothecary to not require scrolls is about the only way to fix this. It can't be scrolls or books because there will be an interval when you have lost scrolls and have not built the buildings to provide books, a two step process.

Btw the Scriptorium should not have Books as an or requirement since the building goes obsolete befor you can make any.

Thunderbrd · Feb 11, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I have figured out why I could not build the Apothecary any more. It requires scrolls which go obsolete at Printing Press!

I could not build Healers because their building had been replaced by the Doctor's Office.

I could not build Surgeon because it requires Drugs which I did not have!

There for I went form being able to build Apothecaries to the ancient Wise Woman when I got Printing Press!

Dancing Hoskuld said:
11. There is something wrong with the healer line. I am in the late Renaissance but the best healer I can build is the Wise Woman. I used to be able to build the Apothecary.

Changing the Apothecary to not require scrolls is about the only way to fix this. It can't be scrolls or books because there will be an interval when you have lost scrolls and have not built the buildings to provide books, a two step process.

Btw the Scriptorium should not have Books as an or requirement since the building goes obsolete befor you can make any.

We can get scrolls today if we want to. Perhaps something should continue providing scrolls... perhaps the building that provides books and we take away the obsoletion of scrolls until at least computers come into play.

I think we can take the building prerequisites and place them in OR train conditions so that later replacing buildings can also stand in for previous buildings. I think that would harmonize nicely with a situation as you explained where you're having trouble meeting a specific resource requirement for the contemporary version of the unit.

Great evaluation work DH! You da man!

JosEPh_II said:
1st I think this topic needs it's own thread. This will quickly clutter this thread. I will make a New thread and place my take on it there.

JosEPh

Agreed... I had thought to suggest it but the thought got lost along the way during the post.

Sparth said:
@TB

Ok Mangrove was fixed
As for three planets map can you tell me what is wrong? I genereted this map and looks ok to me. I got all 3 "planets" (earth, moon and mars) and look everything ok. Without any alternative terrain.

Great job on the Mangrove!

Faustmouse · Feb 12, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
We can get scrolls today if we want to.

Well, we could have any resource from earlier eras today: Stone Tools, (Stone-) Tablets, Typewriters.... I think obsoleting them is more in a way of "they are not mainstream anymore" and not "we forgot how to make it".

Yudishtira · Feb 12, 2015

I strongly believe that in most if not all cases, replacement buildings should supersede the obsoletion mechanism. For an extreme example, when you tech Industrialism, all those craft or guild-based manufacturers should not just throw up their hands on the spot and say: "Oh look we can build factories now. No point doing it this way anymore..." That's just wrong. It may be decades until any factories produce that good - indeed, you may never build the factory! When the factory is completed, only then should it replace (rather than obsolete) the previous "...Maker" building.

And in my playstyle, smaller cities will prefer to continue to build the "cottage industry" rather than the full-on factory (the main reason for me being it costs less :hammers:

, but pollution is and should be a consideration also).

In short, while there may be exceptions, I'm going to generalize and say the only thing in C2C that needs to go obsolete... is the obsoletion mechanism!

Reisk@ · Feb 12, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
I addressed that issue in depth a while back in the bug thread after you posted about it. I don't specifically recall what the resolution WAS but if I recall, after close evaluation, it was determined that it had been setup according to the intended design. I will try to find the reply to this later and repost it here if you haven't found it in the meantime.

That would be nice, it really feels ridiculous that player can't build factories anywhere on map after industrialization/assembly line and refrigeration techs have "obsoleted" them. I really can't see the point in that and for sure it is not realistic. Geothermal mines also can't be built for example on top of depleted mines or on normal ground anymore in V35 and that might be somewhat reasonable BUT they don't give me the geothermal energy resource when built upon one as they did in previous versions so everything can't be according to design there.

As for the nukes, small tac nuke really shouldn't equal icbm in power, let alone hydrogen bomb or advanced fusion bomb.

I also think that cottages should devour more food, especially when they grow bigger. Now it really feels that they produce wealth and science far too cheaply in regards of food consumption, after all town is full of people and they have to eat rightyrightyright ?

Pre-v36 Bugfix List

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