#20 from Pre v36 Bug list Discussion

This tread is started so that we may go over and discuss #20 on the Master list, continuing with the Caveman2Cosmos Config file: Enhanced Tech Conquest.

@T-brd,

Here is my take on this piece of coding:

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]
1. This is the Base Condition: Get All Techs from Conquered City OR Get Tech thru Set of Restrictions listed below.The setting to False activates Condition Set(s) below.

# Change the value to true if technology should be handed completely over from
# the conquered city to their new owners.
# Default value is False
Complete Technology Discovery = False

2.This sets the Number of Resticted Techs you can receive. The current 1 is the minimum and should be raised to at least 3 or more. Very Restrictive in current Condition setting of 1.

# Increase or decrease the value to change the number of or part of
# technologies conquered cities will hand over to their new owners.
# Default value is 1
Technology Transfer Count = 1

3.This Condition can be used to limit amount under Both paths generated by Base Condition #1. Current is set to No Random by using False. Reason it is set at False is because of Value used by Condition #2 (only allowed 1 Captured tech).

# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False

4.This Condition affects Both Paths too. This Condition would allow Conqueror to recieve Tech without having All prereqiusites and Ignore Civ's Tech Restrictions. (Think Zulu allowed to get Praetorian If Iron Working is tech captured). Currently this is Not Allowed with False. This is Very Restrictive Condition. And can cause No tech to be discovered by Capturing Adv Civ City. Should be considered to be changed to True.

# Change the value to true if the conquering civilization can receive
# technology without the appropriate prerequisites or ignore their civilization
# technology restrictions.
# Default value is False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False

5. This Condition forces receiving Civ to spend 1 turn to research Each Tech received. If multiple Tech received then player will spend 1 Full Turn on Each Captured Tech to receive those techs. Player must make concious effort to do so.

# Change the value to false if full technology transfer should be allowed. By
# setting the value to true this will force players to spend at least one turn
# researching pillaged technology.
# Default value is True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

6.This Condition sets the % of base research Points given towards possible conquered tech. Ex: If conquered tech requires 4 turns to research this would shorten reserch time by 1 turn.

# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25 (BTTP for abrev.)

7.This condition adds 5% to the BTTP of 25% per city pop. Ex. 5 Pop city would change BTTP from 25% to 25% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% +5% = 50%. Therfore the larger the city the quicker to get new Conquered Tech researched. Would take Gameplay to see if any change is needed impo.

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 5

@Faustmouse,
If you would relist your set here it would be easier to compare and discuss.

I wish it were easier to do a "tree diagram" of these conditions and how they apply to the 1st Condition. That in itself would give Everyone a better idea of what takes place here. I know there is a proper name for IF/Then diagramming but it is escaping me at the moment.

JosEPh

I think 1. should remain False and 5. should remain True. Just so that you have to do some research yourself to finish getting any techs. It may be only one beaker that is needed but you still have to do something.

And with Multiple Research that will only be as many beakers in a single turn as techs you need to "use one turn for". Could be 100 techs and you would still get them all in one single turn, so really that part matters less. Especially if it is "ignore prerequisites" as then you would get all prerequisite techs too, well, with 1 beaker remaining in each.

As for the 7th point I would think it is rather 0%+5% per city Pop up to the Maximum set by point 6, at least I have never seen myself getting more than 25% of a full tech via conquering as far as I can remember.
If so then setting it to 50% and 2% per population you would need to conquer a pop 25 city to get max, and anything under that would be 2%*pop gained.
Might need testing though to make sure what is really going on.

Cheers

@DH,
Even if #1 would be changed to True, then #3 can reduce and help control the Number of tech received. So there is wiggle room.

Agree on #5 staying the same.

#'s 6 and 7 fall under the realm of Conditions #2 and #4 with #1 at current setting.

There are actually quite a few permutations from this Set of Conditions whether Condition #1 is set to False or True. (I've long forgotten how to do a IF/Then/Else table)

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

(I've long forgotten how to do a IF/Then/Else table)

Click to expand...

That is what spread sheets are for. I don't think I've done one in about 20 years!

Reposted from the Bugfix V36 Thread:

I would go with this:

JosEPh_II said:

From the Caveman2Cosmos Config file:

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]

# Change the value to true if technology should be handed completely over from
# the conquered city to their new owners.
# Default value is False
Complete Technology Discovery = False

I think it should stay false. You will have some insights of a new tech, but you won't fully understand it just from looking at it. Unless you take in account torturing the population or something to unreveal their secrets.

# Increase or decrease the value to change the number of or part of
# technologies conquered cities will hand over to their new owners.
# Default value is 1
Technology Transfer Count = 1

I think this should be ALL techs. You will experience a lot of different techs when you conquer an advanced civilizations city. From a game perspective, this might be horrible overpowered, but we can use some values below to "fix" that.

# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False

Random would make some sense here, also it will nerf the change above a little bit.


# Change the value to true if the conquering civilization can receive
# technology without the appropriate prerequisites or ignore their civilization
# technology restrictions.
# Default value is False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False

I'd change this to true as well. You might argue that you need to understand physics in order to understand how airplanes fly, but if you see airplanes you see at least their general shape, how they land take off, how fast they are, what materials they are made of...

# Change the value to false if full technology transfer should be allowed. By
# setting the value to true this will force players to spend at least one turn
# researching pillaged technology.
# Default value is True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

Hmm... It would make sense if this was false. Just from looking at an airplane or a gun doesn't give you full understanding on how to recreate them. It would also lower the "more then one tech" transfer from above. HOWEVER, you can also find an engineer in a newly captured city that didn't like his old king or that hopes for some benefits, so he tells you all about airplane construction...

# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25

With the above changes, this should be lowered to 10 or even 5%. You will get some very basic understanding of ALL new technologies used in this city.

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 5

So if I get this correctly, it currently would give you 25+Pop*5% to a new tech?
If so, I'd change that to 1 or 2 at most. First, it will balance the "all techs" issue from above a little more, but also sometimes it doesn't really matter how many people live in a city.. I just realized that you have more infrastructure in bigger cities and that you are more likely to experience advanced technology in bigger cities then in smaller ones. Also it's more rewarding to capture big cities. So MAYBE this shoudl stay at 3 or 4 and therefore the basic percentage should be completely removed.
Just keep in mind that cities in C2C can grow to pop 30+ easily. That means you basically get all techs from your enemy just by capturing a big city, which would be horrible!

Click to expand...

@BG,

Had not considered the ramifications of Multiple research. But I do Not believe you would get all "prerequisite" Techs leading up to the Tech you captured.

That would need testing to see if it is actually the case. As I see no place in this that would allow you to receive the "prerequisite" Tech along With the Captured tech. This just by passes the Prereg and Civ restrictions.

As for the 7th point I would think it is rather 0%+5% per city Pop up to the Maximum set by point 6, at least I have never seen myself getting more than 25% of a full tech via conquering as far as I can remember.
If so then setting it to 50% and 2% per population you would need to conquer a pop 25 city to get max, and anything under that would be 2%*pop gained.

Click to expand...

Again would need testing to make sure what is really going on. And is contingent with Condition #1 remaining set to it's current setting.

EDIT: @Faustmouse,
Would you please consider removing the "code" tag and use the "quote" instead. It makes reading it so much easier. If you would be so kind.

JosEPh

Like this?
Or having it in seperate quotes?

My time tonight is already spent so I'll comment more as soon as I can.

Faustmouse said:

Like this?
Or having it in seperate quotes?

Click to expand...

Thanks. That is good. Makes it easier to read.

EDIT: I have changed the values in my current game. Changes made were: #2 from 1 to 5; #3 from False to True; and #4 from False to True.

I'm at war with China and if I can conquer another city should see if any changes occur. I have already conquered 3 cities and razed 1 and have received No techs under Mods current set up.

JosEPh

Ok, so now that I understand the tags, having read the notes which then after comprehending get in the way of better analysis, I see that we're currently situated at:

Current
Complete Technology Discovery = False
Technology Transfer Count = 1
Random Technology Transfer Amount = False
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = False
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25
Percentage Per City Population = 5

Joseph's approach
Complete Technology Discovery = False
Technology Transfer Count = 5
Random Technology Transfer Amount = True
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25
Percentage Per City Population = 5

Faustmouse's Suggestion
Complete Technology Discovery = False
Technology Transfer Count = 100
Random Technology Transfer Amount = True
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = False
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 5
Percentage Per City Population = 3

In analysis, the current system allows one tech to be learned with 25%+5%/population of the research points to learn it going towards the capturing player but leaving the last point of research off so the player needs to choose to research it. With multiple research this doesn't mean much but it DOES mean the tech is not immediately transferred and at least one turn must be spent actually absorbing the information the city has to offer. Furthermore, if the tech has a prereq of a tech that the player doesn't have then it can't be the tech the player gains research towards.


Joe's system would make it possible to get presumably 1-5 techs learned with 25%+5% per population of the research points to learn it going towards the capturing player but leaving the last point of research off so the player needs to choose to research it. This can allow a tech that the player doesn't have the prereqs for yet to be largely learned but not unlocked until a round is spend researching the tech, which would therefore require that the prereqs be mastered.

In comparison, the overall effect of the difference would mean that war can bring roughly 1-5 times the amount of tech gain per city if you're really behind the enemy that significantly when you capture.


Faustmouse's system would mean that by capturing a city you get a random amount of techs learned, potentially all of the techs the opponent possesses that you don't, including the ones that you don't have the prereqs for, but he limits the amount of tech gain per capture to 5%+3%/population (Pop 10 for example would give 35% of the tech) and he retains the player's need to at least spend a round of focus to collect the techs. This is a more wide angle approach which spreads the learning out among all the techs the player doesn't have. Given, however, that we have Pop 32 (101% of the research towards each tech) cities very quickly, after the prehistoric era this means that capturing one city will pretty much teach you everything they know, albeit the random amount of techs learned factor may have omitted some of the techs the opponent knows.


There's merit in all 3 approaches listed so far I think. I'm rather used to how the current system works... it fits what I've experienced in game and have come to expect it to do. Joe's beefs it up significantly which appears to be a matter of preference. I'm not often behind in techs so I would think this is largely a huge penalty for the player in most games but it would make a truly difficult game under the toughest settings a bit more winnable. Mouse's beefs it up a LOT after prehistoric but weakens it significantly before that and has an interesting effect of spreading the rewards more thinly.


My suggested approach would be:
TB's Suggestion
Complete Technology Discovery = False
Technology Transfer Count = 5
Random Technology Transfer Amount = True
Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = True
Disable Full Technology Transfer = True
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 5
Percentage Per City Population = 1

In analysis:
Complete Technology Discovery = False

Defeats much of the intricacy of the rest of the structure imo.


Technology Transfer Count = 5

It does seem a little gamey to limit this to one, too game powerful to open it to everything, and one can imagine that often, key knowledge holders and the platforms upon which the knowledge is stored can easily be destroyed in the violent capture of a city which would somewhat limit the benefit. I'm in agreement with Joe that this strikes the right chord between game balance and realism.


Random Technology Transfer Amount = True

Due to the above noted factors about how easily knowledge can be 'accidentally' erased, I agree this should be random. It would be nice, though, if this python based coding could be adapted to first add the tech prereqs for buildings that have survived the battle, up to the established limit of 5 techs, before randomizing the #of techs learned from what amount of unknown techs are left (up to 5) if there ARE any left.

Ex: I capture a city from a nation that knows 10 techs I don't. 2 buildings survived the invasion that I cannot build. Thanks to one of those buildings requiring not only a tech I don't have but a prerequisite tech I also don't have, there 3 technologies I would've needed to have learned to have built those 2 buildings. Those 3 techs are thus automatically on the list of techs I'll be learning more about and that leaves 2 slots towards the cap of 5 techs I can potentially learn from this enemy. So now I get 0-2 random techs learned from the pool of 7 techs remaining that the enemy knows that I don't.


Technology Transfer Ignore Prereq = True

We've seen many indigenous peoples go through this, jumping into modern age knowledge picked up from those that have come to war against them. But with the next factor, this means the knowledge gained can still be useless for some time to come yet.


Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

This would be a must if we're ignoring prereqs. I think we're all in agreement that a nation needs to take a moment to figure out what it's people may already know once you've moved in on new territory. Doesn't take much to implement a known tech so as to be useful to the state but it does require taking the time for the leadership to at least recognize that the tech is known and step in to add consideration that the people know this new thing into future decision making processes.


Base Technology Transfer Percent = 5
Percentage Per City Population = 1

I like mouse's thinking. This would keep things in an interesting range for much longer I think. If you don't sneak attack very quickly, the AI currently slaves the hell out of cities that you approach to give them immediate units there so this may not be as easy to take full advantage of as it may still seem (it still only requires a pop 94 city to reach the cap on all received techs.) But it takes some eras to get to 94+ on city sizes (particularly if we get rid of the current implementation of the food merchant which I feel is throwing city growth game progression right out the window at the moment.) Limiting to 5 techs at maximum also brings some control and balance back even once you have cities over 300 population going.

Furthermore, this means the system is both weaker and stronger than the current system in place. It can mean you can get a wider amount of techs, but until the much later game you probably need to capture more cities to really get into a position of being able to rapidly adopt them. This makes it act a bit more diffusive and less automatic, means pressing the assault to other cities will continue to matter more, which even with the current system I often feel doesn't support all that well. I also think it honors the spirit of all suggestions and feedback.

As an overall compromise you have a good balance here T-Brd.

One of the things I wanted to make more clear was the "help" it would give the AI vs the player.

The modders both here and in AND2 have given much time and consideration into Tech Diffusion. When in reality maybe this Config file should've been addressed 1st in an aid to the AI that was falling behind. As That was the Main reason Tech Diffusion was recently augmented, for AIs that kept falling behind. Not so much for the human player. Although both TD and these changes does help the less experienced player. It also give a significant benefit to the AI.

There will be those that will complain. Yes getting DOW'd and having the AI have One more reason to keep after you is frustrating, but is also how you learn (as a human player) to get better. It should help the AI be a better opponent impo.

JosEPh

It will only help the player as far as I can see because many of the AI do not wage war against anyone. And when they do they are so bad at it that they can't capture cities.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It will only help the player as far as I can see because many of the AI do not wage war against anyone. And when they do they are so bad at it that they can't capture cities.

Click to expand...

They shouldn't be bad at it forever. They've got some challenges right now, yes, and one of the things I added to the list of prerelease bug fixes was what I believe will be a final AI fix to get them to the point of being incredibly competitive with their attack forces.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It will only help the player as far as I can see because many of the AI do not wage war against anyone. And when they do they are so bad at it that they can't capture cities.

Click to expand...

The AI plays at Noble - IIRC. What level do you play at?

If the same level as the AI - you should be much better off. But the AI will not appear to be very aggressive.

If at a higher level ( next up is Prince, etc.) the AI has bonus's that seem's to make them more competitive.

With the standard BTS game - a lot of players found it very hard to move from Noble to Prince.

This may be the same with C2C.

Just to let you know - while play testing (and updating my SEM+ map) I play Noble and Auto play.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It will only help the player as far as I can see because many of the AI do not wage war against anyone. And when they do they are so bad at it that they can't capture cities.

Click to expand...

I just don't see that. So can't say that it's been my experience. But then I don't use a lot of Options that the AI struggles with, impo.

Edit: And as harrier stated I now play on Monarch or Emporer instead of Noble.

JosEPh

I play noble. The AI does OK if I select "No Positive Traits". If I select "No Negative Traits" as well it does just as bad as if I had neither.

First and most important value should be level of education in empire of conqueror.

If i have 200 education and my rival 100 - he will not get nothing as he simply destroy everything he doesnt understand (like barbaric assault to Rome).

If i and my rival have 200 or so education - then he have chance to get 5-25% of beakers to unknow to him technology.

if i have 200 but my rival got 300 or more he will get much more then 25% like 50% or more.
(historical example is england assaulting zulu - they studied them afterwards to gather valueble antropological information)

Number of tech`s and\or % of beakers conqueror can, get must be based on education.

Sounds very good to me TB!
I was wondering if Pop should have an effect on tech capture at all, but I think bigger cities use modern technology (Aqueducts, Subway, Airport) more often than smaller ones. Probably an era factor could be handy here; for example 1% per pop in ancient, but only 0.2% per pop in the TH era.

Also, I think the limitation to 5 techs is logical and probably ok for a game balance perspective, I'd still increase it. If you are lucky enough to capture a city from a MUCH more advanced civ, you should be rewarded. And if we allow techs that we don't have all prereqs for, this can add up quickly.

Do you know, how random tech amount works? Let's say we set multiple techs to 9 and the AI has 4 techs we don't know. Will you recive a) 0-4 techs or possibly b) 0-9 techs?

a) Would mean you'd get 4 techs in only 20% of the time, while b) means you get 4 techs in 50% of the time.

masaykh said:

First and most important value should be level of education in empire of conqueror.

If i have 200 education and my rival 100 - he will not get nothing as he simply destroy everything he doesnt understand (like barbaric assault to Rome).

If i and my rival have 200 or so education - then he have chance to get 5-25% of beakers to unknow to him technology.

if i have 200 but my rival got 300 or more he will get much more then 25% like 50% or more.
(historical example is england assaulting zulu - they studied them afterwards to gather valueble antropological information)

Number of tech`s and\or % of beakers conqueror can, get must be based on education.

Click to expand...

While what you are saying has merit it does not fall under these changes. This is a Main Config file that has been a part of the Modding progression from Rise of Mankind (RoM) to A New Dawn (AND2 now) to C2C. It is not tied into the Property system of Education/Crime/Disease/etc. at all.

This config file is found in the main C2C files and folders where Assets reside and is changeable by anyone that so desires For the values it gives. But it has been overlooked for a long long time. The attempt here is to change what is given (in the way of captured Tech and tech advancement with relation to city size) when a city is conquered.

JosEPh