SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Grifftavian · May 6, 2012

adrianj said:
Courthouses:

It might be worthwhile building some of these instead of Wealth. Depends on the savings of course, and what our current inflation rate is. As an example, if it takes 10 turns to build one and it saves us 5/turn, then it would take only another 24 turns to repay the investment. Considering there is about 65 turns until T240, I think they're a good idea at the moment.

Theatres:

Note that I haven't made any attempt to build these in non-legendary cities. I'm not a big fan of Globe Theatre, and since we'll be in Caste System for the foreseeable future we don't really need the Artist slots.

@Griff - noted. Will update.

@All - Are we sure we want Gunpowder before Guilds? If we do it the other way around we get a discount on Guilds. Also, I wonder if I should put Iron Working in there first, just in case we have a source...

Courthouses - we have 5 built already! If we build one in Kyoto we'll gain +5.08 gold/turn, and it would allow us to build The Forbidden Palace in Kyoto, which would add +6 culture/turn when completed (although it would add some Great Spy points into Kyoto's gene pool). A courthouse in Agra would gain us another +4.83 gold/turn.

I'm OK with switching research over to the Guilds path. Or Iron Working if you'd like. Agree with Oz about going back to Gunpowder if we get attacked again.

adrianj · May 6, 2012

In Kyoto I don't think a courthouse is worth it, since it has other buildings that are a much higher priority.

I think I'll ignore it in Agra as well. Once the city switches to max artists its :hammers:

production will be decimated to the extent that a 40 turn courthouse build will only *just* pay for itself in 65 turns from now. I'd rather just switch to Wealth sooner.

Ronnie1 · May 7, 2012

Nothing to add.

Good Luck aj!

adrianj · May 7, 2012

I played a few turns

Spoiler :

adrianj · May 7, 2012

Some very interesting developments:

1. The AP resolution to end the war with Ghandi passed! We are now at peace with Hatty and everyone else. Still some WHEEOHRNs out there though. ABout the AP - we only *just* scraped in with enough votes.

2. We learned Iron Working, and TWO sources of iron popped up, one by Delhi, the other by Patal.

3. Shaka demanded Liberalism. I gave it to him.

4. Hammu is willing to trade techs! We can pick up Alphabetm Calendar, HBR, MC and Compass all for the low low price of Education.

5. Hammu is also willing to trade a Defensive Pact! I certainly think it is something we should consider. I wonder if it will come up as an AP option next cycle...

6. Minor point, but Osaka has been relegated to the never-will-produce-a-gp group. It has assigned a merchant and the idea is to work mines and merchants to generate gold.

Most of the micromanagement is pretty much done - it's just a matter of keeping an eye on things and working through the turns - provided the AI plays nicely. Somebody else can take over the save now.

Ozbenno · May 7, 2012

Hammy will trade??

Would be good to pick up Alphabet (spies) and Metal Casing at least.

Well done on ending the war aj!!!

EDIT: Crosspost with above

Sleepless · May 7, 2012

Looking good AJ.

Tect trades I would pick up MC by using theo + little bit of gold this turn. Then machinery and what else we can get for Edu next turn.

DP with Hammy 100%. It makes us safe from him and will keep him at pleased etc for the rest of the game unless someone attacks and breaks it.

Personally if you want to play on for a few more turns I would go for it. Tho be an idea to move the LBs from Osak/Tok to Kyoto.

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

Good job, aj! :hatsoff:

One Great Artist born during your turn set, and another due in two turns!! :clap:

4. Hammu is willing to trade techs! We can pick up Alphabetm Calendar, HBR, MC and Compass all for the low low price of Education.

It's hard to see in aj's screen shot, but when we ask Hammy what he will give us for Education, he throws in 20 Gold in addition to all the techs listed above! IMO, we should make this trade now! HBR is the only tech we can't use.

5. Hammu is also willing to trade a Defensive Pact! I certainly think it is something we should consider. I wonder if it will come up as an AP option next cycle...

IMO signing the DP with Hammy is a good idea. Between this and the Education trade above, maybe he like us enough to consider a request to convert to Hinduism.

Sleepless · May 7, 2012

@Grifftavian if we trade for MC this turn we can use edu to get machinery + others the next turn and probably guilds or something using lib the turn after.

If we use Edu this turn - lib next we have nothing to trade for guilds the turn after.

Calendar for the bananas should be a high priority as well.

2 weeks left to go so we need to push on a bit so who's up.

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

Sleepless said:
...

2 weeks left to go so we need to push on a bit so who's up.

Good question. We kind of got away from the rotation that was established in post #2 of this thread. My best guess is...

aj, if he wants to play some more turns
R1, who I believe got skipped
me

Sleepless · May 7, 2012

Grifftavian said:
Good question. We kind of got away from the rotation that was established in post #2 of this thread. My best guess is...

aj, if he wants to play some more turns

R1, who I believe got skipped

me

Well I played a few turns..

after Ronnie so might be you...

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

Sleepless said:
Well I played a few turns.. after Ronnie so might be you...

OK, I'll start working on a PPP, hope to get it up later today, maybe 6 - 8 hours from this post.

Ronnie1 · May 7, 2012

Yes Griff is up, I played a bit out of sequence before C63.

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

Sleepless said:
@Grifftavian if we trade for MC this turn we can use edu to get machinery + others the next turn and probably guilds or something using lib the turn after.

If we use Edu this turn - lib next we have nothing to trade for guilds the turn after.

Calendar for the bananas should be a high priority as well.

2 weeks left to go so we need to push on a bit so who's up.

Currently the only Techs we have that Hammy wants are Theology and Education.

If I ask what he wants for Metal Casting, the response is 525 Gold from us. Pretty sure we don't want to do that.

If I ask what he will give for Theology, the response is Alphabet + 20 Gold.

I can try and see if he'll trade Metal casting for Theology straight up. He might go for it, but more than likely we'll have to kick in some Gold to sweeten the deal.

Are {Theology for Alphabet + 20 Gold} or {Theology + ??? Gold for Metal Casting} trades we would like to pursue? If the second option, how much Gold would we be willing to kick in as a deal sweetener?

If not, that still leaves the Education trade previously discussed.

Sleepless · May 7, 2012

Grifftavian said:
Currently the only Techs we have that Hammy wants are Theology and Education.

If I ask what he wants for Metal Casting, the response is 525 Gold from us. Pretty sure we don't want to do that.

If I ask what he will give for Theology, the response is Alphabet + 20 Gold.

I can try and see if he'll trade Metal casting for Theology straight up. He might go for it, but more than likely we'll have to kick in some Gold to sweeten the deal.

Are {Theology for Alphabet + 20 Gold} or {Theology + ??? Gold for Metal Casting} trades we would like to pursue? If the second option, how much Gold would we be willing to kick in as a deal sweetener?

If not, that still leaves the Education trade previously discussed.

I think its theo + 20 gold to get MC from Hammy. Def worth it as were not worried if he goes into theocracy now he's pleased and dp will only improve that. Of course it'll make the other AI hate us more if thats possible.. :lol:

Edit. Worker actions need to get the workers off the island. All AI have sheep so improving those won't get us much. Need to get Kyoto's copper and corn up asap so would send mainland workers there. The 2 on the island can put a plantation on the bananas once we have calendar.

Edit again. Tech trades I find the best question is usually "what would make this deal work?"

Sleepless · May 7, 2012

Just another thought (at work so plenty of time to think of these things atm).

Defensive pacts and AP votes? I assume we need to know mil tradition to get a defensive pact resolution to come up in the votes. If not that is the certain one we want to put up. To much to hope for getting a dp with Hattie and Liz though would be fun if we did. :lol:

Another edit: Noticed that none of the AI are in merc either so not to much shared fav civic bonus available though it might improve by the time we get there. Will the extra spec be better than trade routes/loss of commerce with other civs if we go into merc. Something else to look at/think about.

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

PPP for the next few turns starting T178/1180 AD

Questions in Blue
Updates in Maroon

RESEARCH

Continue research on Guilds -> Banking path @ 0% Science pending trades

TECH TRADES

This turn: Trade Theology + 15 Gold for Metal Casting.
Next turn: Trade Education for as much as we can get.
Turn after next: See if we can trade Hammy Liberalism or something else, hopefully getting Guilds.
Check for new trade deals every turn.

DIPOLMACY

Sign Defensive Pact with Hammy this turn.
Be nice to everyone else.
Encourage heathens to convert to Hinduism or adopt Free Religion.

CITY BUILDS

Delhi: finish Hermitage (3T); Monument; Buddhist Monastery; University; Culture.

Bombay: finish Theater (5T); Christian Monastery; Buddhist Monastery; University; Culture.

Vijay: continue building Wealth & running Artist Specialists

Pata: finish Spearamn (2T); Wealth until we get Machinery, then some Macemen.
Pata currently starving @ -1 Food/turn; fix it? Yes, and change to Merchant Specialists.
Build Iron Mine near Pata? No.

Vara: continue building Wealth & running Artist Specialists

Osaka: continue building Wealth & running Merchant Specialists
Do we need another Fast Worker? No.

Toyko: continue building Wealth & running Artist Specialists

Kyoto: finish Buddhist Stupa (8T); finish Christian Cathedral (11T) (get Stone back!); Monument; Christian Monastery; University; Culture.

Agra: continue building Wealth & running Artist Specialists. Generate GA before Bombay!

FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN

Replace improvement on east side of Kyoto.
Farms for Wealth/Artist cities.

UNIT MOVES

Military units to Kyoto or Fort NW of Pata.
Work Boat 3 to explore West toward Inca.

CIVICS CHANGES & OTHER STUFF

No Civics changes planned. Change to Mercantilism if/when we get Banking!
Will be nice toward everyone.

REASONS TO PAUSE

Anything out of the ordinary (like a large stack of units showing up).

Grifftavian · May 7, 2012

Sleepless said:
I think its theo + 20 gold to get MC from Hammy. Def worth it as were not worried if he goes into theocracy now he's pleased and dp will only improve that. Of course it'll make the other AI hate us more if thats possible..

Edit. Worker actions need to get the workers off the island. All AI have sheep so improving those won't get us much. Need to get Kyoto's copper and corn up asap so would send mainland workers there. The 2 on the island can put a plantation on the bananas once we have calendar.

Edit again. Tech trades I find the best question is usually "what would make this deal work?"

Tried the "What would make this deal work?" question, and it's Theology + 15 Gold!!!!

Agree that's a good deal, so how does this sound to everyone...

This turn: Trade Theology + 15 Gold for Metal Casting.

Next turn: Trade Education for as much as we can get.

Turn after next: See if we can trade Hammy Liberalism or something else, hopefully getting Guilds.

adrianj · May 7, 2012

That trade plan sounds great.

Stop conditions: don't stop just for trade talks. Better that you decide and we keep things moving.

Patal is slowly starving, which is fine. With DP from hammy, does Patal still need to be building troops? Wealth build might push up the slider a notch.

I also moved most of Patal's garrison to the fort bottleneck. Just seems like a much better defensive position.

adrianj · May 7, 2012

My reasoning for stopping was less because I had to, but more because I thought the DP and sudden availability of trade was a good reason. Had I continued without consulting I would have taken the immediate trade deal (now judged to be inferior, and I agree) and definitely would have taken the DP. But I could just imagine posting a save 10 turns later and all the team thinking - 'A Defensive Pact! Where'd that come from!? Trade options!?'

I think we should broaden the discussion on what is really a 'Stop Condition'. On a tight schedule I think we put more trust in the active player. At this stage, only events that truly affect our existence (existential threats if you will

) should be cause to stop. Perhaps Patal should build the National Wonder 'Transportation Security Administration'. I think techs required are Flight and Fascism.

@Griff (and all active players):
Take whatever trade deals you think best.
(Re)Negotiate Resource trades as you see fit.
City Builds - should be able to stick to what's written in the PPP.
Micromanage cities as you see fit, while sticking to the overall game plan of trying to generate lots of GArtists.
Choose whatever AP resolutions you like - though we could make a list of ones NOT to take, eg, don't try to claim a neighbour's city or get us into an undesirable war.

SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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