SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

Very nice :) So who is playing the ts in WT's place? Might not be a bad idea for BL to go ahead as he has done all the testing and MM calculations and is therefore more familiar with how it should be played.
 
Very nice :) So who is playing the ts in WT's place? Might not be a bad idea for BL to go ahead as he has done all the testing and MM calculations and is therefore more familiar with how it should be played.
Firt, let's see if WT has actually problems. But i think you're right, it can be between me and UT. Please wait until i can post a detailed report on my noted attempt.
 
WT - hope you feel better.

BL - If possible I hope we can get some warriors for fogbusting/garrison, but explore with an archer. Fortified warriors in forests and hills can hold off archers, but it would be really valuable to have a scout that can survive for a long time and get a very good exploration and meet the other AIs

I'm betting it's hub rather than wheel. I played a few Hub maps earlier this year - the central area has a lot of ice and silver (and marble?). I avoided attempting to control the central area at all, since the land was generally crap, and I felt it would be vulnerable from too many directions. My instinct was to REX toward the centre and defend the chokepoint - I probably didn't tech fast enough though.
 
How come we have 10% of population with our 1 city? That implies 10 population total in the world. On Emperor, AIs only get one Settler each, so does this mean one AI has 2 population?

Hey, is it possible the AI teams are 1, 1, 1, 1, 4? Or does it have to be 2, 2, 2, 2?
 
WT - hope you feel better.

BL - If possible I hope we can get some warriors for fogbusting/garrison, but explore with an archer. Fortified warriors in forests and hills can hold off archers, but it would be really valuable to have a scout that can survive for a long time and get a very good exploration and meet the other AIs

I'm betting it's hub rather than wheel. I played a few Hub maps earlier this year - the central area has a lot of ice and silver (and marble?). I avoided attempting to control the central area at all, since the land was generally crap, and I felt it would be vulnerable from too many directions. My instinct was to REX toward the centre and defend the chokepoint - I probably didn't tech fast enough though.

With hunting we can get a scout unit to explore. It may not be able to survive major attacks but it can move fast to ..ahhh... scout. I like the idea of a choke point but I think we may need to discuss that further after we get cities 2 and 3 settled.

First, let's see if WT has actually problems. But i think you're right, it can be between me and UT. Please wait until i can post a detailed report on my noted attempt.

I agree that we need a detailed plan especially this early but I think that you are the best person to execute it too at least the first 30 turns or so. Maybe if you do half I can do the other half and together we can bring CS and the oracle home with your detailed plan.
 
I think Archer is much more valuable than a scout (even counting the difference in hammers) - once barbarian warriors appear, accidentally ending turn next to a barb will mean automatic death.

Agreed that chokepoint discussion can wait for later
 
With hunting we can get a scout unit to explore. It may not be able to survive major attacks but it can move fast to ..ahhh... scout. I like the idea of a choke point but I think we may need to discuss that further after we get cities 2 and 3 settled.
A scout is wasted hammers. It risks to die to any animal which is not a wolf. Better an archer to scout. It can even gain enough XP for the HE, being us Char. But i think we need all our units to fog/spawnbust at least until the Oracle. It's Emperor, the AIs will find us!
I agree that we need a detailed plan especially this early but I think that you are the best person to execute it too at least the first 30 turns or so. Maybe if you do half I can do the other half and together we can bring CS and the oracle home with your detailed plan.
Alright, made it again and, most important with notes on the MM.

I avoid to post the autolog, the highlights (i'm posting the turns where things are completed, so i add 1):
Spoiler :
t01 settled Wash, start hunting, worker in 15
t07 start AH, 2 turns shaved on worker thanks to deer after BFC expanded
t14 worker in, moves to deer
t18 start mining in 8 (camp done IBT)
t20 grow 2, work camp+lake this is important to shave 1 turn from mining, so that the worker does not have idle turns and the mine comes in play 1 turn earlier
t22 work camp+unimproved sheep first warrior done, start another
t23 pasture done and grow to 3 IBT
t24 moved worker to gems, citizen on pasture, camp and silk
t25 mining, in start mining gems, start writing in 13
t27 grow to 4 and gems improved, working 3 I.t. +silk
t29 started mine the NW PH (let's pray a forest does not pop)
t32 grow to 5 1st archer done, start another to grow before library, work gems, camp, pasture and 2 lakes this shaves 1 turn to writing
t34 writing in, start library, then settler, work g+p+c+silk and spices, start wheel, worker idle until thi is in
t36 grow to 6
t39 wheel in, first road on gems, we need them soon! start Myst, research 0% for 2 turns
t41 back to full research, 38 in the bank
t43 library in, 1 more turn on archer to grow, Myst in, start masonry, 2 sci at work
t44 grow to 7, start settler
t47 masonry in
t50 Medi in (cheaper than Poly)
t52 Academy in, 42 bpt
t53 PH in, path to NYC fully roaded
t55 NYC founded (the warrior for MP was spawnbusting there since ages) worker already on marble, start quarry. NYC works crabs, slowly building a WB
t57 2nd archer in (the one started centuries ago), start Oracle. I work the lake to max commerce before marble arrives, the 2 sci stay firmly there
t62 marble in! work g+c+p+spices and silk, NYC works the quarry, stagnating at 1
t63 moved to PH mine from spices
t67 set research to 80%
t68 NYC finishes its WB and can finally start grow
t69 ready to revolt to bureau, start Alpha
 
So, we've lost 3 days thanks to that wrong test game.
But don't worry we can recover!

I think that my intensive testing today has given us a good target.

I just DLed the official save, so i can play at any moment.
Since i got all my notes and i played this one some ten times, I propose this:
If you agree that my plan is good I can try to actuate it in the real game, until the end.
The only uncertainty is about marble, so if i find it more or less where i put it in my test, i will settle NYC in the best possible position to have it improved soon.
No discussions, when i start i go until turn 69, provided some stupid AI won't beat me.

Then we can stop to discuss the civics, the new roster and so on.
 
So, we've lost 3 days thanks to that wrong test game.
But don't worry we can recover!

I think that my intensive testing today has given us a good target.

I just DLed the official save, so i can play at any moment.
Since i got all my notes and i played this one some ten times, I propose this:
If you agree that my plan is good I can try to actuate it in the real game, until the end.
The only uncertainty is about marble, so if i find it more or less where i put it in my test, i will settle NYC in the best possible position to have it improved soon.
No discussions, when i start i go until turn 69, provided some stupid AI won't beat me.

Then we can stop to discuss the civics, the new roster and so on.

I wouldn't worry about 3 days. We have 3 months yet, and this is definitely the most important part of the game.

I am fine with you going ahead, I just want clarified where it was decided to settle NY? I know stone/crab/oasis is what we originally discussed, but where precisely has it gone in your tests?

Other than making sure everyone is cool with city #2's site I agree you should play through the cs sling and only stop if there is something alarming or unexpected, ai related or otherwise, that comes up and merits discussion.

As far as scouting: yes, it's emperor and the ai will find us, but I still think we should send atleast one archer abroad to try and spot the wizard if he can. Our vc decision will either be perfect or terrible based on what/who the wizard is. Recon is therefore priceless.
 
Nice work on the micro BLubmuz, but all your work is dependant on marble...

Do we still only have 1 worker? I wouldn't mind trying to get BW instead of masonry, and chopping a 2nd worker early on. Also, if teching is the limiting factor, then I wouldn't mind trying to mine the gems first and head for an earlier Library.

I would like to play a few test games to try these things out, however I won't be able to play until ~36 hours from this post. We do have 3 months to play this thing...


Since i got all my notes and i played this one some ten times, I propose this:
If you agree that my plan is good I can try to actuate it in the real game, until the end.
The only uncertainty is about marble, so if i find it more or less where i put it in my test, i will settle NYC in the best possible position to have it improved soon.
No discussions, when i start i go until turn 69, provided some stupid AI won't beat me.

I would really like to have a discussion on the location of the 2nd city. By that stage we'll be able to see 5 times more land. I don't think that getting marble should be the only deciding factor in placement of a second city. We'll want to REX hard after CS, and having a strong 2nd city spot is vital to getting those cities out ASAP.

This is another reason for not focussing all our micro planning around marble.

A second city with 3 improved food resources will be a million times more useful than a city with marble and a 1/2 built WB (particularly given our traits...)
 
I just had a quick play with the save. There shouldn't be a forest 2S of our starting location.

This is a problem because I want to build a farm here! I'd change it myself but you locked the assets. Do you have a WB save?

Your start looks good Blubmuz, up to Writing, but I want to try AH-mining-BW-writing-hunting. This may allow a faster Academy by a couple of turns. However my worker has 5 free turns before BW, and I want to build that farm 2S of the capital!
 
While I would love to get this show on the road, I would also like to do some testing before we put all our eggs in one basket. Marble would be great but that stone site is what I have been testing as the second site. Please hold off on playing until we can get a bit more testing done. Also when we do play, I think that the TS should be split into smaller sets. I don't care if you play all of them but I think that there should be some breaks for major events.
 
Update: Surviving. Large (180 mg) prednisone. Don't know what the allergen is. Just that it's airborne, and causing loads of problems. I haven't completely caught up, but if we're looking at settling NY, can we wait till tomorrow so I can catch up?
 
just stop breathing.

sorry, couldn't resist. I'm not helpful at all. Steroids are good stuff for immune issues, I've had plenty of experience with that. Hope you find the root cause soon!

In a test I just got Library completed at turn 43, with AH-mining-BW-wri-hunting. Focussed completely on commerce till Writing, then hammers. Capital at size 4 only at turn 43, but we will still get an Academy at the same time as BLubmuz's test.

Now off to drink with mates (first time in 6 weeks since the bub was born!) and will refine that start and post something tomorrow.
 
Well, surely i'm not thinking to play 69 turns in a row. At least a break every 15 turns.
Or this can be split between me and UT.

Dredd, with a size 4 capital by turn 43, you'll never can have an Academy on turn 52, unless you work only sheeps and deer.

Trying to repeat my test, i realized how important is earlier food. In fact, researching hunting-AH before mining gives by turn 52 the best results, far better than mining first, which is better only in the early 30 turns. A size 7 Capital on turn 44 is the key to Oracle CS on turn 69.
About NYC: obviously if i find marble without food or other production i will stop play, because all my plans would be meaningless. The fact that the city is on a very early stage of development does not worry me a bit.
We can't produce the settler earlier if we want the library and the academy at the time i manage to have them (and needless to say, CS in by turn 69).
So, what do you pretend from a city founded on turn 55? Size 4 in 14 turns maybe?
If we can have a site like that in the real game that city will explode in few turns after the initial suffering, don't worry.

Another thing: we need marble now, stone later. Where is the problem?

Dredd: farm? can you define exactly what you mean? that word sounds new to me.
Cottages dammit, cottages! and the worker has no time to farm anything. It's idle for only 3 turns waiting for the wheel.
 
Okay I just made a run at it. I was able to pull it in on T69 and ready to revolt. Things really fell in to place well. Each improvement was finished on the same turn as city growth up to size 4 so I only worked improved tiles after the first improvement was completed.

Tech path was:

Mining(T9) ->Hunting(T15) -> AH(T23) -> Writing(T33) -> BW (T41) ->Myst(T46) -> Med (T50) ->PH (T54) ->CoL (T66) ->Math (bulbed with second GS) (T68) -> CS(T69)(from Oracle)


Highlights and dates:
T24 Size 2
T29 Size 3
T40 Only idle turn for worker (Waiting on BW)
T42 Library Finished
T43 Size 4
T52 GS for Academy
T53 Settled NY on hill 1W of Stone, Size 5
T66 CoL Finished
T68 2cd GS done ->Bulbs Math
T69 Oracle finished -> Take CS

Units/Buildings on T69:
3 Archers
1 Warrior
1 Worker
1 Library
1 Academy
1 Work Boat

These dates match up with BLubmuz's test but are not dependent on Marble in the second city. The trade off is no masonry but we get BW instead. It is needed to chop a good bit of the oracle. We also use up a GS to bring Math home.

I have all the details of each turn written down and am going to try to streamline some to see if I can do it without using the second GS.
 
These dates match up with BLubmuz's test but are not dependent on Marble in the second city. The trade off is no masonry but we get BW instead. It is needed to chop a good bit of the oracle. We also use up a GS to bring Math home.

I have all the details of each turn written down and am going to try to streamline some to see if I can do it without using the second GS.
That's pretty good if we do not have marble. A GS on math... brrr.
For what i know about HUB maps every starting area is pretty small, with room for some 6-7 cities. Thus we can finish to explore it fairly soon. I think that by turn 30 we can know all or almost all the area. Then we can decide what to do, depending on marble. Or no marble.

Good to know we have a plan A and a plan B.
 
Well, surely i'm not thinking to play 69 turns in a row. At least a break every 15 turns.
Or this can be split between me and UT.

Dredd, with a size 4 capital by turn 43, you'll never can have an Academy on turn 52, unless you work only sheeps and deer.
See my post below. I was at 4 on T43 and got the academy on T52.

Trying to repeat my test, i realized how important is earlier food. In fact, researching hunting-AH before mining gives by turn 52 the best results, far better than mining first, which is better only in the early 30 turns. A size 7 Capital on turn 44 is the key to Oracle CS on turn 69.

At size 7, how much unhappiness is there. If none then for sure the wheel is needed to hook up the resources.

About NYC: obviously if i find marble without food or other production i will stop play, because all my plans would be meaningless. The fact that the city is on a very early stage of development does not worry me a bit.
We can't produce the settler earlier if we want the library and the academy at the time i manage to have them (and needless to say, CS in by turn 69).
So, what do you pretend from a city founded on turn 55? Size 4 in 14 turns maybe?
If we can have a site like that in the real game that city will explode in few turns after the initial suffering, don't worry.

Another thing: we need marble now, stone later. Where is the problem?

Sure but what if we don't have marble. We can see that other than some MM and tech order, the first 34 turns are the same for both approaches and I want to test your route to see if it works better in those first 34 turns anyway.

Dredd: farm? can you define exactly what you mean? that word sounds new to me.
Cottages dammit, cottages! and the worker has no time to farm anything. It's idle for only 3 turns waiting for the wheel.

Yes we need cottages but we can't spare any turns for pottery if we want the Oracle so they will have to wait. My question is how do you have time for farms? My one worker was busting his butt for all but 1 turn either improving resources or chopping forests.


We need to hold off on playing for a little while to determine the best way to arrive to T34. At that point we can decide the rest of the path to the oracle. Both will get us there on T69. Mine is based on what we can see now but is extreme in that we "waste" a GS on Math and chop a good bit of forests to arrive at that time. BLubmuz's gets us there in much better shape for the long term but is based on future resource speculation.

I think the prudent choice is to maximize the first 34 turns knowing that we can pursue either path after that. Once we can agree on those turns, BLubmuz can play and based on what we discover of the map we can decide the approach to the second 35 turns and I can play my TS and bring the Oracle home.

Is everyone else okay with this plan/approach? I plan to continue testing all day today and part of the day tomorrow (at work and no boss around). I will continue to post updates from my testing.
 
Yeah, agreed. We definitely need to pause after the first 30 or so turns. What we learn about the AIs and the land could be critical. There could be all kinds of dirty mapmaker tricks, like putting ocean between us and the centre of the hub, etc.
 
So, we're out for a plan for TSs.

I can take in charge the first part, until writing is in and the library started, so until turn 34. By then i'll try to explore all our surroundings, to see if we actually have marble and i a good location.

Then UT can take the 2nd part and try to bring the CS sling home with plan A or B, depending on my discoveries.

Just gimme a green light, even with max concentration the TS won't take much time to be played.

PPP (Pre-Play-Plan, for people new to FE)
research
Hunting-AH-Mining-Writing-wheel always @ 100%

builds
worker-warrior-warrior-archer-archer (suspend for library and settler)

Capital will grow to size 6 on turn 36

save turn 34, end of PPP

Sure we need to road the gems as soon as we get the wheel the happy cap is 7, thanks to Char.
 
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