The Falkland Islands

For those deciding that self-determination should be superseded, what is the parameters for determining what area can make self-determination, and which ones can't?
 
In general, I think any area where a majority of the people (as opposed to a majority of the people who can be bothered to vote, which isn't quite the same thing) want to go their own way from the motherland iis entitled to secede.
 
The issue in Ireland was that the vast majority of people didn't really care either way or wanted to keep the status quo; the problem was that the vocal, violent minorities (on both sides) had a disporportionate influence over, and intimidated into silence or complicity, the rest of the people. There's also the debate about whether a district of a city is large enough for the rule to apply; clearly it depends on whether it's being amalgamated into a bordering country - so if 'Free Derry' had been literally touching the border between NI and the RoI, and the Republic had been willing to take it, there would have been a very strong case for letting it go.
 
Free Derry didn't want to join the Republic though. They never made any sort of move towards the government, nor claimed to be represented by them. They were a self-declared autonomous region, interested only in being "Free Derry." Hence the sign.
 
That's nonsense, the borders look awful like that, Ireland should own the whole island.

Drawing borders to look nice has caused a lot of problems.
 
Free Derry didn't want to join the Republic though. They never made any sort of move towards the government, nor claimed to be represented by them. They were a self-declared autonomous region, interested only in being "Free Derry." Hence the sign.

Indeed, and in that situation, it doesn't make sense to put a tiny independent state on the map even with the backing of the locals, hence why their sentiments were judiciously ignored.
 
In general, I think any area where a majority of the people (as opposed to a majority of the people who can be bothered to vote, which isn't quite the same thing) want to go their own way from the motherland iis entitled to secede.
I'd like to point out two things :
- If someone can't be bothered to even vote (provided he can do so safely and without undue obstacle, of course), then I don't see why anyone should bother with his opinion.
- What determine which area would be considered ? A region ? A city ? Only the south part of a city (which has 55 % people wanting to secede, while the entire city would be at 48 % only and could not) ?

As for the topic : Argentina has absolutely no claim to the islands (a "well, we somehow had a handful of people settling there for some monthes despite it being an already claimed land 150 years ago" is not a claim, it's a farce), so the UK is right to ignore them. It's a shame that the UN would do anything but to laugh at Argentina and tell them to grow out of baby tantrum.
 
I'd like to point out two things :
- If someone can't be bothered to even vote (provided he can do so safely and without undue obstacle, of course), then I don't see why anyone should bother with his opinion.
- What determine which area would be considered ? A region ? A city ? Only the south part of a city (which has 55 % people wanting to secede, while the entire city would be at 48 % only and could not) ?

As for the topic : Argentina has absolutely no claim to the islands (a "well, we somehow had a handful of people settling there for some monthes despite it being an already claimed land 150 years ago" is not a claim, it's a farce), so the UK is right to ignore them. It's a shame that the UN would do anything but to laugh at Argentina and tell them to grow out of baby tantrum.

Don't forget they also claim it because migratory birds fly there from Argentina. :lol:
 
- If someone can't be bothered to even vote (provided he can do so safely and without undue obstacle, of course), then I don't see why anyone should bother with his opinion.

Because otherwise we end up with bizarre decisions that nobody really wants - at the risk of a Godwin's Law, that's how most tyrannies (and BNP MEPs) come about
 
Indeed, and in that situation, it doesn't make sense to put a tiny independent state on the map even with the backing of the locals, hence why their sentiments were judiciously ignored.
So arguments of self-determination only apply situations that "make sense?"
 
I would, but that's me.

My point is that everyone seems to be claiming that Argentina's claims are baseless because of self-determination, but no one would like to see self-determination actually applied.
 
If they did want to join Argentina, it would make sense; they don't have another country in the way and so could be absorbed without much trouble. Even if they wanted to become independent, that wouldn't be a major drama, since they're a set of islands. If they wanted to join Austria, however, that might be more problematic.

To me self detirmination should always apply when talking about territories that have not fully joined in with a country or which no country has de facto control over. So the Falklands, Puerto Rico, Gibraltar, etc. should get to self determine. Group of random people though who move to an abandoned part of Colorado and proclaim nationhood do not as the US clearly has de facto control over it and it is not a territory which has not fully joined into the nation.

The problem is that the first condition seems to me conditional on the occupying country's actions; in other words we could remove the right of the Falkland Islands to self-determine by simply declaring them part of England, County of Stanleyshire. That to me sounds fundamentally the wrong way around.
 
To me self detirmination should always apply when talking about territories that have not fully joined in with a country or which no country has de facto control over. So the Falklands, Puerto Rico, Gibraltar, etc. should get to self determine. Group of random people though who move to an abandoned part of Colorado and proclaim nationhood do not as the US clearly has de facto control over it and it is not a territory which has not fully joined into the nation.
 
In my opinion it should largely depend on COMMUNITY. If a community of people wants to secede - and there aren't any other communities who wouldn't - living in the same geographical area - that to me is a sign that such a thing should be put up to democratic vote and be considered by the affected nations.
 
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